ESPN writers ranks 10 best sophomores in this NBA season

[DBC10]

Of course I'm interested and disappointed you didn't post his numbers and just did a link.

50th in +/-
41st in VORP
61st in WS

From last year out of 91 starters (min 65 games)...

good

26th in STL

above average

41st in VORP
43rd in DBPM

below average

47th in DWS
47th in FTM
50th in BPM
54th in DRTG
54th in OBPM
58th in ORTG
58th in FT rate
60th in OWS
61st in WS

bad

68th in AST
69th in 3FG
69th in REB
69th in WS/48
75th in eFG
76th in TS
79th in FG%
80th in PER

That's above average to good in 3 categories and below average to bad in 17.

91 starters...

Top 10 being top shelf
Top 30 being good

Middle 30 (31to 61) being average

Next 20 being bad
Last 11 being craptacular

KCP ranks average or above in 12 of 20...

Which is exactly where I'd put him - average to above average at this time!

Thanks for the numbers Toddo

What are they for the last TWO years?

Thanks for actually contextualizing the usage of statistics and ranking rather than being used in a vacuum to justify an inane point like the fellow you quoted is doing. Good on ya mate, and I actually mean that.

On that note:

When you're ranking SGs or players and you're ranking them based on pure rank rather than accounting for the minor differential between the top shelf candidates, you're doing statistics really wrong. Like Ronald Fisher is literally rolling in his grave seeing some of these cherry picks for supplementing a bias.

Hilarious. Oh and to add another addendum that needs explicit reminding, when everyone says it's you; it's you.

[In SVG We Trust]

I really doubt Todd could construct a simple linear regression

[hoophabit]

For what it's worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aclzt0A36qE

[Pharaoh]

Here's the thing with Toddo:

Like any good heel he's speaking (typing) partial truths.

Numbers show KCP is not a good shooter. Todd has posted them twice when I've asked.

The reason that its important he's stated (repeatedly): to maximise Dre & RJ in the PnR we need quality long range shooters.

So when Todd discusses KCP as a shooter he's right....for now.

When we discuss handing out $20 mil to said shooter Todd states that it's a poor choice. Again, he's right to worry about that - we all should.

Where Todd struggles is when he tries to explain, in depth WHY he "feels" the way he does about KCP. He posts essays and cherry picks and that's when the majority turn off.

Maybe you need to consider how you frame your argument Toddo?

[mattao313]

Here's the thing with Toddo:

Like any good heel he's speaking (typing) partial truths.

Numbers show KCP is not a good shooter. Todd has posted them twice when I've asked.

The reason that its important he's stated (repeatedly): to maximise Dre & RJ in the PnR we need quality long range shooters.

So when Todd discusses KCP as a shooter he's right....for now.

When we discuss handing out $20 mil to said shooter Todd states that it's a poor choice. Again, he's right to worry about that - we all should.

Where Todd struggles is when he tries to explain, in depth WHY he "feels" the way he does about KCP. He posts essays and cherry picks and that's when the majority turn off.

Maybe you need to consider how you frame your argument Toddo?

Todd hasn;t shown anything new, pretty much everyone here wants to see KCP play before he is paid. Everyone knows this simplistic list you need for Reggie Andre pnr witch I hope we don't run as much this season. People don't like when people push their opinion of defense doesn't matter or their extremely bias opinion of Andre and Reggie.

[tmorgan]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

[Pharaoh]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Just confirms what the majority here have been saying:

Perception is that KCP is an average/above average starter.

What I believe Todd has been trying to say & show for ages is that the perception is flawed!

Not that I should make his point for him but:

Todd isn't worried about KCP as an individual player. He's stated that our system works at it's best with quality long range shooters and since KCP isn't one we need to address that.

So it's not really all about KCP being "average" or "above average" in the league - it's about how his biggest weakness negatively impacts our greatest strength (the RJ/Dre PnR)

That's what I thought the point was anyway....and then in an effort to prove himself right it just went mental

Cause make no mistake: Todd was right!

If your wing player's greatest weaknesses help your opponent defend your greatest strength offensively then it needs to be addressed one way or another.

Some believe via working to improve it, others believe by changing the starting line up.

Both sides are right in that case...but then where would we be?

[zeebneeb]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Very insightful tmorgan. Great thread.

Even if Pope is my current favorite, I'm not blind to his problems. It's his potential when he's in his prime that has me excited. His drop in 3p% last year was odd, but if he brings it back up to around 35% that is just fine.

His performance in the playoffs was very good, something that gets overlooked at times as being a playoff performer is huge for your team. There have been tons of great regular season players who are just terrible in the playoffs because of nerves.

The kid is 23 years old, and this coming year is huge for him and is usually the year a player starts solidifying their place in the league.

On a side not, Tobias Harris was the player I was most concerned about in the playoffs (his first year as well) after a few games of nerves his last two, and especially his last game was phenomenal.

Pope has all the tools to be a top 10 SG in the NBA. All he needs to do is to take his time on offense and his %'s will go up, plain and simple.

If it doesnt? Coaches in the league love him. To those worried about giving him a big contract, he will easily be the easiest player to trade on the team.

If it comes to that. I hope it does not.

[mattao313]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Just confirms what the majority here have been saying:

Perception is that KCP is an average/above average starter.

What I believe Todd has been trying to say & show for ages is that the perception is flawed!

Not that I should make his point for him but:

Todd isn't worried about KCP as an individual player. He's stated that our system works at it's best with quality long range shooters and since KCP isn't one we need to address that.

So it's not really all about KCP being "average" or "above average" in the league - it's about how his biggest weakness negatively impacts our greatest strength (the RJ/Dre PnR)

That's what I thought the point was anyway....and then in an effort to prove himself right it just went mental

Cause make no mistake: Todd was right!

If your wing player's greatest weaknesses help your opponent defend your greatest strength offensively then it needs to be addressed one way or another.

Some believe via working to improve it, others believe by changing the starting line up.

Both sides are right in that case...but then where would we be?

But the thing is I don't think KCP is killing the offense, also KCP brings defense a thing this team struggled with the more the season progressed.

The offense is just running pnr over and over again and just having guys stand around the 3pt line is a bigger problem than just looking a 3pt shooting. The pick and roll is nothing new in the NBA and that's what I hope SVG fixes since he has put together this versatile roster, I hope we play a little different than last year. Their are other things the offense struggled with ball movement, slower pace, horrid FT shooting.

[In SVG We Trust]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Just confirms what the majority here have been saying:

Perception is that KCP is an average/above average starter.

What I believe Todd has been trying to say & show for ages is that the perception is flawed!

Not that I should make his point for him but:

Todd isn't worried about KCP as an individual player. He's stated that our system works at it's best with quality long range shooters and since KCP isn't one we need to address that.

So it's not really all about KCP being "average" or "above average" in the league - it's about how his biggest weakness negatively impacts our greatest strength (the RJ/Dre PnR)

That's what I thought the point was anyway....and then in an effort to prove himself right it just went mental

Cause make no mistake: Todd was right!

If your wing player's greatest weaknesses help your opponent defend your greatest strength offensively then it needs to be addressed one way or another.

Some believe via working to improve it, others believe by changing the starting line up.

Both sides are right in that case...but then where would we be?

Pharaoh, Todd has discussed KCP's defense. That's enough to recognize someone with a mental disorder, period.

[Todd3]

Of course I'm interested and disappointed you didn't post his numbers and just did a link.

50th in +/-
41st in VORP
61st in WS

From last year out of 91 starters (min 65 games)...

good

26th in STL

above average

41st in VORP
43rd in DBPM

below average

47th in DWS
47th in FTM
50th in BPM
54th in DRTG
54th in OBPM
58th in ORTG
58th in FT rate
60th in OWS
61st in WS

bad

68th in AST
69th in 3FG
69th in REB
69th in WS/48
75th in eFG
76th in TS
79th in FG%
80th in PER

That's above average to good in 3 categories and below average to bad in 17.

91 starters...

Top 10 being top shelf
Top 30 being good

Middle 30 (31to 61) being average

Next 20 being bad
Last 11 being craptacular

KCP ranks average or above in 12 of 20...

Which is exactly where I'd put him - average to above average at this time!

Thanks for the numbers Toddo

What are they for the last TWO years?

eh, if you define average as 31-61, and he's only above that in 1 category and "bad to craptacular" in 8, that makes him average to bad, not average to above average.

Being good in STLS doesn't outweigh being bad in FG%, TS, PER, 3FG, AST, REB, WS/48, eFG.

[In SVG We Trust]

I think it's time to ignore this nonsense.

[Pharaoh]

From last year out of 91 starters (min 65 games)...

good

26th in STL

above average

41st in VORP
43rd in DBPM

below average

47th in DWS
47th in FTM
50th in BPM
54th in DRTG
54th in OBPM
58th in ORTG
58th in FT rate
60th in OWS
61st in WS

bad

68th in AST
69th in 3FG
69th in REB
69th in WS/48
75th in eFG
76th in TS
79th in FG%
80th in PER

That's above average to good in 3 categories and below average to bad in 17.

91 starters...

Top 10 being top shelf
Top 30 being good

Middle 30 (31to 61) being average

Next 20 being bad
Last 11 being craptacular

KCP ranks average or above in 12 of 20...

Which is exactly where I'd put him - average to above average at this time!

Thanks for the numbers Toddo

What are they for the last TWO years?

eh, if you define average as 31-61, and he's only above that in 1 category and "bad to craptacular" in 8, that makes him average to bad, not average to above average.

Being good in STLS doesn't outweigh being bad in FG%, TS, PER, 3FG, AST, REB, WS/48, eFG.

Umm, you quoted the part where I seperated the numbers into different tiers, used my 31-60 tier and then reverted back to your own definitions.

Why?

I'm like the only dude here trying to help people understand your points!

I'll type it again bro: maybe you should reframe your argument

[Todd3]

91 starters...

Top 10 being top shelf
Top 30 being good

Middle 30 (31to 61) being average

Next 20 being bad
Last 11 being craptacular

KCP ranks average or above in 12 of 20...

Which is exactly where I'd put him - average to above average at this time!

Thanks for the numbers Toddo

What are they for the last TWO years?

eh, if you define average as 31-61, and he's only above that in 1 category and "bad to craptacular" in 8, that makes him average to bad, not average to above average.

Being good in STLS doesn't outweigh being bad in FG%, TS, PER, 3FG, AST, REB, WS/48, eFG.

Umm, you quoted the part where I seperated the numbers into different tiers, used my 31-60 tier and then reverted back to your own definitions.

Why?

I'm like the only dude here trying to help people understand your points!

I'll type it again bro: maybe you should reframe your argument

Based on your criteria, he's average or bad in 19 of 20 categories.

That makes him average to bad. That's not my definition. It's just math.

Not trying to argue, just being accurate.

[Pharaoh]

To make it crystal clear to you:

good

26th in STL

average
41st in VORP
43rd in DBPM
47th in DWS
47th in FTM
50th in BPM
54th in DRTG
54th in OBPM
58th in ORTG
58th in FT rate
60th in OWS[/u]

bad

61st in WS
68th in AST
69th in 3FG
69th in REB
69th in WS/48
75th in eFG
76th in TS
79th in FG%
80th in PER

That's:

1 category for good.

10 categories for average.

9 for bad

So he's AVERAGE! But it does skew towards below average!

Toodo: you push your points too far and get EVERYONE off side when what you really should be doing is let the TRUTH have it's day!

I believe I'm a reasonable poster. I have no agendas here one way or the other. By my own tiers - which were described as fair by someone else KCP is an average/below average player.

Todd, if you would be oh so kind to once again post his shooting numbers from the last TWO seasons then maybe, just maybe the PERCEPTION of him might change!

FYI Todd, you will never convince anyone based on HOW you deliver your message mate.

Hence me "helping"

[DetroitPistons]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Very insightful tmorgan. Great thread.

Even if Pope is my current favorite, I'm not blind to his problems. It's his potential when he's in his prime that has me excited. His drop in 3p% last year was odd, but if he brings it back up to around 35% that is just fine.

His performance in the playoffs was very good, something that gets overlooked at times as being a playoff performer is huge for your team. There have been tons of great regular season players who are just terrible in the playoffs because of nerves.

The kid is 23 years old, and this coming year is huge for him and is usually the year a player starts solidifying their place in the league.

On a side not, Tobias Harris was the player I was most concerned about in the playoffs (his first year as well) after a few games of nerves his last two, and especially his last game was phenomenal.

Pope has all the tools to be a top 10 SG in the NBA. All he needs to do is to take his time on offense and his %'s will go up, plain and simple.

If it doesnt? Coaches in the league love him. To those worried about giving him a big contract, he will easily be the easiest player to trade on the team.

If it comes to that. I hope it does not.

KCP was awesome in the playoffs largely because our offense was running like a well-oiled machine. We finally established chemistry after the Harris trade and it resulted in better shots for everyone, including KCP. I suspect that will happen early on this regular season too and will result in KCP increasing his percentages. I'm very confident that we will look back on this KCP talk after the first 2-3 months of the season and realize that it was pointless because clearly KCP was just simply on that fine line of establishing himself and only needed a little more time and team chemistry. We are going to pay him 20+ mil next season and we will be happy about it.

[zeebneeb]

It's just the T&T board and RealGM posters (19 votes), not actual NBA GMs, but I made this survey a couple of days ago to see if I was right about the general perception of KCP.

I was.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1473232

Very insightful tmorgan. Great thread.

Even if Pope is my current favorite, I'm not blind to his problems. It's his potential when he's in his prime that has me excited. His drop in 3p% last year was odd, but if he brings it back up to around 35% that is just fine.

His performance in the playoffs was very good, something that gets overlooked at times as being a playoff performer is huge for your team. There have been tons of great regular season players who are just terrible in the playoffs because of nerves.

The kid is 23 years old, and this coming year is huge for him and is usually the year a player starts solidifying their place in the league.

On a side not, Tobias Harris was the player I was most concerned about in the playoffs (his first year as well) after a few games of nerves his last two, and especially his last game was phenomenal.

Pope has all the tools to be a top 10 SG in the NBA. All he needs to do is to take his time on offense and his %'s will go up, plain and simple.

If it doesnt? Coaches in the league love him. To those worried about giving him a big contract, he will easily be the easiest player to trade on the team.

If it comes to that. I hope it does not.

KCP was awesome in the playoffs largely because our offense was running like a well-oiled machine. We finally established chemistry after the Harris trade and it resulted in better shots for everyone, including KCP. I suspect that will happen early on this regular season too and will result in KCP increasing his percentages. I'm very confident that we will look back on this KCP talk after the first 2-3 months of the season and realize that it was pointless because clearly KCP was just simply on that fine line of establishing himself and only needed a little more time and team chemistry. We are going to pay him 20+ mil next season and we will be happy about it.

What has always puzzled me about KCP is that he doesn't have a bad shot. His form is great, and he gets great height on his shot, and his release is quick. I mean with Stanley his shot looks bad, his form is kinda crap, and his release is bizzaro so his percentages makes sense.

I firmly believe that Pope will be just fine, and like you said chemistry and also better decisions on offense will lead to better overall percentages. Pope takes a lot of shots that if he worked for it, he could have had a better one.

In rewatching about 30+ games this year, there are times Pope is without question the best player on the floor. His defense, while always consistent, when coupled with offense makes him so valuable it's crazy. The game that did it for me (some of those playoff games he was an animal)was that Golden State game. He caused the Warriors so many problems as they had to constantly switch, try and take Pope out with illegal screen, after illegal screen, it discombobulated their entire offense. When he started scoring it was a one two punch they just couldn't deal with. It is simple stunning to really watch that game and see just how much Pope disrupts that game.

This is why I am such an ardent supporter of his as his shot is fine, it's his selection is crap but I feel that comes with youth, and chemistry.