Week 8 Thread

[Da Schwab]

ND got robbed, terrible call!

It was the right call, albeit kind of a lame one with the quality of the game, but the right call.

[TheKingofSting]

But ND says they don't teach illegal plays.

[CJ_18]

Bad Call. You can clearly tell that the 3 FSU DBs busted. None of them were making an effort to cover that receiver. They obviously have a technique that they play to a 3 receiver bunch, and I would guess that the technique doesn't involve the inside defender have to stay with his man when he goes to the flat and run through all that traffic (through the 2 most outside receivers and their respective defenders). Clearly one of the 2 outside defenders should've switched off their man and got the man who went directly to the flat.

And its not like the receivers who got called for PI ran to and picked anyone other than the man lined up against them. All the receivers did was run into the player covering each of them respectively. And its not even like they grabbed the defenders or made no effort to run a route. All it looked like was that they got a bad release and they were getting jammed.

Watch the play again and rethink that second paragraph.

Brian Kelly agrees with me

"But again, the play itself, in terms of what we ask our kids to do, it was pretty clear what happened on the play: Florida State blew the coverage and they got rewarded for it. It's unfortunate."

"He's supposed to find space, sit down and be a target. Again, it's a play that's a pretty common play in NCAA football -- where you're setting a point, guy turns around and the ball is thrown. The ball was thrown quickly, C.J. didn't even have a chance to turn around -- which may have led to some of the objects that people were talking about on TV, that he was blocking -- but he was simply trying to get his space in the end zone."

[Da Schwab]

Yeah, it is a common play. Every goddamn program has a pick play that they try to disguise. Does it get caught by the refs every single time? No, of course not.

But, when the game is on the line, especially in such a high profile matchup, I would hope that the refs call that penalty.

Was it a lame way for the game to end? Yes. Was it right? Damn sure.

[Cad25]

I'm not sure if it was the right call. Or I don't think it's as clear cut as a lot of the talking heads are making it out to be. While the concept of the play was clearly what you'd expect for the typical pick/rub play, the truth is none of the FSU DB's actually got picked or rubbed on the play.

1. The middle receiver: He gets jammed/grabbed by the DB right at the line and proceeds to run straight ahead. It's almost impossible for him to turn around when he's suppose to because the DB still hadn't let go from the initial jam/grab. There's definitely contact, but it was engaged by the DB at the line and never broken.

2. The outside WR: After the snap he takes a jab step outside before cutting inside on a slant route. If the FSU defender on the outside had any intentions of covering the flat area then he would have had a clear path once the WR cut inside. Instead he jumped the slant and cut the WR's route off inside which created some unavoidable contact. Both the WR's cut inside and the DB jumping the route happened simultaneously so there was no way the WR knew where the DB was going. The DB essentially took himself out of any play in the flat the moment he cut the WR off on the slant.

3. The inside WR: The WR gets a free run from the line and is wide open in the flat. The DB that has coverage here is late getting over because he thought they were in zone and at no point does any WR make contact with him.

So I can see why the call was made because the refs were looking for the pick/rub and there was contact. But the thing is neither ND WR went out of their way to make contact or impede the DB's. One got engaged by the DB from the start and the other got their route cut off. I honestly don't think there was much, or anything really, that the WR's could have done to avoid doing exactly what they did from what I've seen. You can't turn around when the DB is firmly holding you and you can't stop on a dime just because a DB steps in your path less than a foot in front of you. It's a tough call to take if you're ND because the only people that really stopped the FSU DB's from making a play was the FSU DB's. It definitely was a busted coverage.

[CJ_18]

I'm not sure if it was the right call. Or I don't think it's as clear cut as a lot of the talking heads are making it out to be. While the concept of the play was clearly what you'd expect for the typical pick/rub play, the truth is none of the FSU DB's actually got picked or rubbed on the play.

1. The middle receiver: He gets jammed/grabbed by the DB right at the line and proceeds to run straight ahead. It's almost impossible for him to turn around when he's suppose to because the DB still hadn't let go from the initial jam/grab. There's definitely contact, but it was engaged by the DB at the line and never broken.

2. The outside WR: After the snap he takes a jab step outside before cutting inside on a slant route. If the FSU defender on the outside had any intentions of covering the flat area then he would have had a clear path once the WR cut inside. Instead he jumped the slant and cut the WR's route off inside which created some unavoidable contact. Both the WR's cut inside and the DB jumping the route happened simultaneously so there was no way the WR knew where the DB was going. The DB essentially took himself out of any play in the flat the moment he cut the WR off on the slant.

3. The inside WR: The WR gets a free run from the line and is wide open in the flat. The DB that has coverage here is late getting over because he thought they were in zone and at no point does any WR make contact with him.

So I can see why the call was made because the refs were looking for the pick/rub and there was contact. But the thing is neither ND WR went out of their way to make contact or impede the DB's. One got engaged by the DB from the start and the other got their route cut off. I honestly don't think there was much, or anything really, that the WR's could have done to avoid doing exactly what they did from what I've seen. You can't turn around when the DB is firmly holding you and you can't stop on a dime just because a DB steps in your path less than a foot in front of you. It's a tough call to take if you're ND because the only people that really stopped the FSU DB's from making a play was the FSU DB's. It definitely was a busted coverage.

Thank you for making these points. I agree!

I agree with your main point but I will try to correct a couple small details.

1) If I had to make a guess, and of course assuming the FSU DBs are very well coached in their techniques and coverages, I would guess the Bust in coverage did NOT come from the inside DB like you are suggesting. I don't think there was any chance they had a zone called or that DB could have thought a zone was called. From my experience with Football, there is not many defensive coordinators that call a zone on the goalline. You always want to have all the gaps up front penetrated (in case it is a run.. you cant give up a yard) on the goaline and the only real chance you have is by pressuring the QB. Any QB should be able to find a route 1 yard down the field if theyre not under pressure. You can't sit back and make a conservative call (zone) when you're backed up and only defending 1 yard. You have to be aggressive (6 man pressure, cover zero in behind). Secondly, you can't play zone coverage with 3 defenders to 3 recievers. To successfully play zone, you pretty much always have to have atleast 1 more defender than recievers. So the bust is very likely not on the inside DB. Which means....

2)... the bust in coverage is clearly from either the middle DB (covering the guy on the point of the stack) or the outside DB. Assuming theyre in man, bunches are to create picks and rubs and make it difficult to play man. So usually when you're in a man call, you have certain techniques to play man to a bunch. The man you are covering is usually determined by the releases. Essentially, you need to tell your DBs to sit back and read the recievers releases. If the inside receiver goes directly out to the flat, you would get the most outside defender to jump down on him and cover him man to man, while the other 2 DBs let the other 2 recievers declare and play man to man on each of them. In a snake technique (commonly played in CFL to 3 man bunches, not sure how often it is used in NCAA/NFL), the defender on the point (in the middle) would read the most inside reciever. If he releases inside, the most inside defender will cover him, the defender will stay locked on his man, and the outside man would be on the outside guy. However, if the inside reciever goes to the flat, the point/middle defender will come off his man and pick up that route (since he is closest to the line of scrimmage, and able to cover the short flat route easily), and the other 2 defenders will play 'inside/out' on the 2 remaining recievers, meaning the most inside defender will take the route that goes most inside, and the other defender will take the last remaining route.

[TheKingofSting]

Maybe they will meet again in the playoffs and non of this will matter in the long run.

[Cad25]

Thank you for making these points. I agree!

I agree with your main point but I will try to correct a couple small details.

I admit that I just assumed the inside DB blew the coverage because the other two clearly stayed on their guy while he didn't defend anyone until it was way late. And if two guys are doing one thing and one guy is doing another, it's usually the single guy that made the mistake.

[El Turco]

They wont and they dont

If TCU wins out and Ohio State does, too, I would give TCU a playoff spot before the Buckeyes.

you do that, in reality it won't happen though. whether you like it or not ohio state is a proven commodity, tcu is not, not in national scale. playing samford, minnesota, smu ooc then going through a mediocre conference with a blemish is not going to prove anything and push them over money printing machine that's ohio state.

when records are even and there is not a big discrepancy between sos, ohio state gets in over most teams in the country. anybody who watched college football past decade knows this.

i am too smart for my own good.

[Da Schwab]

If TCU wins out and Ohio State does, too, I would give TCU a playoff spot before the Buckeyes.

you do that, in reality it won't happen though. whether you like it or not ohio state is a proven commodity, tcu is not, not in national scale. playing samford, minnesota, smu ooc then going through a mediocre conference with a blemish is not going to prove anything and push them over money printing machine that's ohio state.

when records are even and there is not a big discrepancy between sos, ohio state gets in over most teams in the country. anybody who watched college football past decade knows this.

i am too smart for my own good.

You shut your whore mouth.

[TheKingofSting]

OSU seems to be playing the best out of the three now, so no argument.