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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight 

Post#1 » by Fultz2Book » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:07 am

Qwigglez wrote:I'm still hoping we put together a package (besides Book/Bledsoe/BenderorChriss) for Cousins. I'd prefer we keep Bender. His three ball is money. He has a beautiful jumper for a 7 footer. He has amazing basketball IQ and his defense is better than I expected. Chriss has been given an amazing opportunity to start and he has been playing like trash this month shooting 36% from the field. I know Ray Ray has mentioned Chriss is on the untouchable list, but I would trade him for Cousins. He' been given the green light lately and that makes me wonder if McD has told Watson to give Chriss more shots to showcase him. I'd expect it would make a great headline that Chriss returns to play for his hometown team.


Ok, sorry but I cant let this slide.

First of all I think it is a shame for the entire fanbase when a mod uses such divisive and biased rhetoric when writing about our own players.

This Bender vs Chriss stuff is the new Dragic vs Bledsoe. Except the posters arguing for Bender have zero hard facts to back up what they are saying.

Second of all let me explain something to you. Marquese Chriss is a 19 year old rookie playing against starters. Despite that on the season he is averaging a PER of 11. That is reasonably close to an average NBA player which is fine for a rookie.
Dragan Bender on the other hand has a PER of 5.8 which by ESPN standards is the worst in the entire league among qualified players it is even worse than Hezonjas.

You bash Chriss for shooting and in the same post you rave about Benders shooting???

Bender 37.1%FG 32.1%3s 37.5%FT
Chriss 41.9%FG 29.7%3s 63.1%FT

Until recently Chriss was shooting closer to 34% from 3.

Even the eyetest since summer league showed that Bender is not a good shooter. He makes some but good shooters do not struggle from the line like that and they also dont miss as badly as Bender often does where he is not even close to be on target.

Then we continously here how Bender has such high IQ, yet his TOV% is the 2nd highest on the team at 17.5%. Only Chandler is worse. Chriss has the 4th lowest TOV% on the team at 12.2%.

Now passing you say, Benders assist rate is 5% only Williams, Len and Chandler are worse. Chriss is slightly ahead at 5.1

Also Bender has by far the worst Ortg on the team and a worse Drtg than Chriss.

Tldr: Benders season was bad and he has shown next to nothing so far to justify his draft position not even resl glimpses. People who saw him in Europe knew how hard he struggled in euro league against better competition already where his shooting numbers plummeted.

Personally I had Ante Zizic ranked higher than Bender and Zubac not far behind and so far I feel validated as Zizic is dominating in Europe.
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Re: Game 56: Suns (17-38) vs Pelicans (21-34) 

Post#2 » by Fultz2Book » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:13 am

batsmasher wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
GetYourPHX wrote:I honestly don't know what's wrong with this team. It seems like we have talent at every position besides the 4 spot, it just doesn't show up every night.

What was with TJ's disappearing act tonight?


[TANK]----

Marquese is without a doubt the worst starter in the league. Do not overlook how excellent a tank weapon he is.


No he is not, there are many worse starters. Sabonis for one.

But I bet it is tough for the horde of Sabonis fanboys on this board to admit that.

Chriss almost doubles Sabonis PER.

It is embarrassing how the mods on this board are trashing Chriss without anything to back up such ludicrous claims.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight 

Post#3 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:17 am

Fultz2Book wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I'm still hoping we put together a package (besides Book/Bledsoe/BenderorChriss) for Cousins. I'd prefer we keep Bender. His three ball is money. He has a beautiful jumper for a 7 footer. He has amazing basketball IQ and his defense is better than I expected. Chriss has been given an amazing opportunity to start and he has been playing like trash this month shooting 36% from the field. I know Ray Ray has mentioned Chriss is on the untouchable list, but I would trade him for Cousins. He' been given the green light lately and that makes me wonder if McD has told Watson to give Chriss more shots to showcase him. I'd expect it would make a great headline that Chriss returns to play for his hometown team.


Ok, sorry but I cant let this slide.

First of all I think it is a shame for the entire fanbase when a mod uses such divisive and biased rhetoric when writing about our own players.

This Bender vs Chriss stuff is the new Dragic vs Bledsoe. Except the posters arguing for Bender have zero hard facts to back up what they are saying.

Second of all let me explain something to you. Marquese Chriss is a 19 year old rookie playing against starters. Despite that on the season he is averaging a PER of 11. That is reasonably close to an average NBA player which is fine for a rookie.
Dragan Bender on the other hand has a PER of 5.8 which by ESPN standards is the worst in the entire league among qualified players it is even worse than Hezonjas.

You bash Chriss for shooting and in the same post you rave about Benders shooting???

Bender 37.1%FG 32.1%3s 37.5%FT
Chriss 41.9%FG 29.7%3s 63.1%FT

Until recently Chriss was shooting closer to 34% from 3.

Even the eyetest since summer league showed that Bender is not a good shooter. He makes some but good shooters do not struggle from the line like that and they also dont miss as badly as Bender often does where he is not even close to be on target.

Then we continously here how Bender has such high IQ, yet his TOV% is the 2nd highest on the team at 17.5%. Only Chandler is worse. Chriss has the 4th lowest TOV% on the team at 12.2%.

Now passing you say, Benders assist rate is 5% only Williams, Len and Chandler are worse. Chriss is slightly ahead at 5.1

Also Bender has by far the worst Ortg on the team and a worse Drtg than Chriss.

Tldr: Benders season was bad and he has shown next to nothing so far to justify his draft position not even resl glimpses. People who saw him in Europe knew how hard he struggled in euro league against better competition already where his shooting numbers plummeted.

Personally I had Ante Zizic ranked higher than Bender and Zubac not far behind and so far I feel validated as Zizic is dominating in Europe.


Welcome to the forums. I think it's too early to judge. Bender has had to adjust to a new country, court, 3pt distance, and has played with a FAR worse supporting cast. PER is not a very good measure. Chriss has greatly improved as of late but he has simply gotten much more opportunity and is being utilized more properly than Bender.

I don't think we will trade either so we will just have to watch from here. You are right that Chriss has played better overall so far, but we all have our preferences.

Very little chance Cousins is traded anyway. They are a game and a half out of the playoffs with their next game the day of the trade deadline.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight 

Post#4 » by Qwigglez » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:22 am

Fultz2Book wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I'm still hoping we put together a package (besides Book/Bledsoe/BenderorChriss) for Cousins. I'd prefer we keep Bender. His three ball is money. He has a beautiful jumper for a 7 footer. He has amazing basketball IQ and his defense is better than I expected. Chriss has been given an amazing opportunity to start and he has been playing like trash this month shooting 36% from the field. I know Ray Ray has mentioned Chriss is on the untouchable list, but I would trade him for Cousins. He' been given the green light lately and that makes me wonder if McD has told Watson to give Chriss more shots to showcase him. I'd expect it would make a great headline that Chriss returns to play for his hometown team.


Ok, sorry but I cant let this slide.

First of all I think it is a shame for the entire fanbase when a mod uses such divisive and biased rhetoric when writing about our own players.

This Bender vs Chriss stuff is the new Dragic vs Bledsoe. Except the posters arguing for Bender have zero hard facts to back up what they are saying.

Second of all let me explain something to you. Marquese Chriss is a 19 year old rookie playing against starters. Despite that on the season he is averaging a PER of 11. That is reasonably close to an average NBA player which is fine for a rookie.
Dragan Bender on the other hand has a PER of 5.8 which by ESPN standards is the worst in the entire league among qualified players it is even worse than Hezonjas.

You bash Chriss for shooting and in the same post you rave about Benders shooting???

Bender 37.1%FG 32.1%3s 37.5%FT
Chriss 41.9%FG 29.7%3s 63.1%FT

Until recently Chriss was shooting closer to 34% from 3.

Even the eyetest since summer league showed that Bender is not a good shooter. He makes some but good shooters do not struggle from the line like that and they also dont miss as badly as Bender often does where he is not even close to be on target.

Then we continously here how Bender has such high IQ, yet his TOV% is the 2nd highest on the team at 17.5%. Only Chandler is worse. Chriss has the 4th lowest TOV% on the team at 12.2%.

Now passing you say, Benders assist rate is 5% only Williams, Len and Chandler are worse. Chriss is slightly ahead at 5.1

Also Bender has by far the worst Ortg on the team and a worse Drtg than Chriss.

Tldr: Benders season was bad and he has shown next to nothing so far to justify his draft position not even resl glimpses. People who saw him in Europe knew how hard he struggled in euro league against better competition already where his shooting numbers plummeted.

Personally I had Ante Zizic ranked higher than Bender and Zubac not far behind and so far I feel validated as Zizic is dominating in Europe.



First off, welcome to the forum.
Secondly, relax. :lol:
I like Chriss a lot. I was simply saying if we traded for Cousins, I'd prefer if we kept Bender over Chriss. I think if this kind of trade actually went through, I believe Bender would be a better fit with Cousins is all.
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Re: Game 56: Suns (17-38) vs Pelicans (21-34) 

Post#5 » by Qwigglez » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:38 am

Fultz2Book wrote:
Spoiler:
batsmasher wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
[TANK]----

Marquese is without a doubt the worst starter in the league. Do not overlook how excellent a tank weapon he is.


No he is not, there are many worse starters. Sabonis for one.

But I bet it is tough for the horde of Sabonis fanboys on this board to admit that.

Chriss almost doubles Sabonis PER.

It is embarrassing how the mods on this board are trashing Chriss without anything to back up such ludicrous claims.


You know, us mods have opinions too. We aren't trying to sway the board to agreeing with everything we say.
For instance, I'm a huge Booker fan. I actually just bought his jersey when I was back in AZ. Batsmasher isn't a big fan, likes Warren more. :lol:
I don't think BW likes Booker all that much either. I actually don't know who BW actually likes on the team, I think he hates everyone equally... except Knight. He definitely doesn't like Knight.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight 

Post#6 » by Fultz2Book » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:38 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Fultz2Book wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I'm still hoping we put together a package (besides Book/Bledsoe/BenderorChriss) for Cousins. I'd prefer we keep Bender. His three ball is money. He has a beautiful jumper for a 7 footer. He has amazing basketball IQ and his defense is better than I expected. Chriss has been given an amazing opportunity to start and he has been playing like trash this month shooting 36% from the field. I know Ray Ray has mentioned Chriss is on the untouchable list, but I would trade him for Cousins. He' been given the green light lately and that makes me wonder if McD has told Watson to give Chriss more shots to showcase him. I'd expect it would make a great headline that Chriss returns to play for his hometown team.


Ok, sorry but I cant let this slide.

First of all I think it is a shame for the entire fanbase when a mod uses such divisive and biased rhetoric when writing about our own players.

This Bender vs Chriss stuff is the new Dragic vs Bledsoe. Except the posters arguing for Bender have zero hard facts to back up what they are saying.

Second of all let me explain something to you. Marquese Chriss is a 19 year old rookie playing against starters. Despite that on the season he is averaging a PER of 11. That is reasonably close to an average NBA player which is fine for a rookie.
Dragan Bender on the other hand has a PER of 5.8 which by ESPN standards is the worst in the entire league among qualified players it is even worse than Hezonjas.

You bash Chriss for shooting and in the same post you rave about Benders shooting???

Bender 37.1%FG 32.1%3s 37.5%FT
Chriss 41.9%FG 29.7%3s 63.1%FT

Until recently Chriss was shooting closer to 34% from 3.

Even the eyetest since summer league showed that Bender is not a good shooter. He makes some but good shooters do not struggle from the line like that and they also dont miss as badly as Bender often does where he is not even close to be on target.

Then we continously here how Bender has such high IQ, yet his TOV% is the 2nd highest on the team at 17.5%. Only Chandler is worse. Chriss has the 4th lowest TOV% on the team at 12.2%.

Now passing you say, Benders assist rate is 5% only Williams, Len and Chandler are worse. Chriss is slightly ahead at 5.1

Also Bender has by far the worst Ortg on the team and a worse Drtg than Chriss.

Tldr: Benders season was bad and he has shown next to nothing so far to justify his draft position not even resl glimpses. People who saw him in Europe knew how hard he struggled in euro league against better competition already where his shooting numbers plummeted.

Personally I had Ante Zizic ranked higher than Bender and Zubac not far behind and so far I feel validated as Zizic is dominating in Europe.


Welcome to the forums. I think it's too early to judge. Bender has had to adjust to a new country, court, 3pt distance, and has played with a FAR worse supporting cast. PER is not a very good measure. Chriss has greatly improved as of late but he has simply gotten much more opportunity and is being utilized more properly than Bender.

I don't think we will trade either so we will just have to watch from here. You are right that Chriss has played better overall so far, but we all have our preferences.

Very little chance Cousins is traded anyway. They are a game and a half out of the playoffs with their next game the day of the trade deadline.



There is a reason Chriss has gotten more opportunities, he has simply played better.

He was great in summer league, Bender was not.
He was great in preseason, Bender was not.
He produced in minutes in the regular season, Bender did not.

Even at the start of the season, Chriss always had reasonable productivity in the minutes he got evidenced by a reasonable PER.

Benders highlights so far have been hitting some 3s in blowouts.

None of his perceived skills like passing or IQ can be backed up by stats as I showed his ast% and tov% are real bad.

Bender was never really all that hyped up as big time talent here in Europe besides one youth tournament years ago, most of that hype came from US based talent evaluators.
It should have been a red flag seeing the massive drop in his production from Israeli league to euro league. He did not get a single shot blocked in israeli league but in the euro league he got blocked like 9 times in 4 games and shot 25%.
His israeli league stats looked ok because the league is liw level and nobody could match up against a unique player like Bender.

A lot of people that saw Bender a lot compared him to Jan Vesely. That comparison still looks rather accurate.

I was a major opponent to us drafting Bender. I was advocating Chriss and Murray or Brown or taking Chriss at 4 and taking a flyer on Labissiere at 13.

McD post draft comments indicated that they were drafting Chriss at 4. The readon they took Bender at 4 was that Denver waspicking him at 7 and they knew Chriss would drop to 8.
Had they picked Chriss at 4 they could have gotten Murray at 8 possibly.

Anyway despite my strong feelings about Bender I dont get on forums to just continuously trash the guy especially without hard facts like what I have to read about Chriss by several posters.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight 

Post#7 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 am

Fultz2Book wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Fultz2Book wrote:
Ok, sorry but I cant let this slide.

First of all I think it is a shame for the entire fanbase when a mod uses such divisive and biased rhetoric when writing about our own players.

This Bender vs Chriss stuff is the new Dragic vs Bledsoe. Except the posters arguing for Bender have zero hard facts to back up what they are saying.

Second of all let me explain something to you. Marquese Chriss is a 19 year old rookie playing against starters. Despite that on the season he is averaging a PER of 11. That is reasonably close to an average NBA player which is fine for a rookie.
Dragan Bender on the other hand has a PER of 5.8 which by ESPN standards is the worst in the entire league among qualified players it is even worse than Hezonjas.

You bash Chriss for shooting and in the same post you rave about Benders shooting???

Bender 37.1%FG 32.1%3s 37.5%FT
Chriss 41.9%FG 29.7%3s 63.1%FT

Until recently Chriss was shooting closer to 34% from 3.

Even the eyetest since summer league showed that Bender is not a good shooter. He makes some but good shooters do not struggle from the line like that and they also dont miss as badly as Bender often does where he is not even close to be on target.

Then we continously here how Bender has such high IQ, yet his TOV% is the 2nd highest on the team at 17.5%. Only Chandler is worse. Chriss has the 4th lowest TOV% on the team at 12.2%.

Now passing you say, Benders assist rate is 5% only Williams, Len and Chandler are worse. Chriss is slightly ahead at 5.1

Also Bender has by far the worst Ortg on the team and a worse Drtg than Chriss.

Tldr: Benders season was bad and he has shown next to nothing so far to justify his draft position not even resl glimpses. People who saw him in Europe knew how hard he struggled in euro league against better competition already where his shooting numbers plummeted.

Personally I had Ante Zizic ranked higher than Bender and Zubac not far behind and so far I feel validated as Zizic is dominating in Europe.


Welcome to the forums. I think it's too early to judge. Bender has had to adjust to a new country, court, 3pt distance, and has played with a FAR worse supporting cast. PER is not a very good measure. Chriss has greatly improved as of late but he has simply gotten much more opportunity and is being utilized more properly than Bender.

I don't think we will trade either so we will just have to watch from here. You are right that Chriss has played better overall so far, but we all have our preferences.

Very little chance Cousins is traded anyway. They are a game and a half out of the playoffs with their next game the day of the trade deadline.



There is a reason Chriss has gotten more opportunities, he has simply played better.

He was great in summer league, Bender was not.
He was great in preseason, Bender was not.
He produced in minutes in the regular season, Bender did not.

Even at the start of the season, Chriss always had reasonable productivity in the minutes he got evidenced by a reasonable PER.

Benders highlights so far have been hitting some 3s in blowouts.

None of his perceived skills like passing or IQ can be backed up by stats as I showed his ast% and tov% are real bad.

Bender was never really all that hyped up as big time talent here in Europe besides one youth tournament years ago, most of that hype came from US based talent evaluators.
It should have been a red flag seeing the massive drop in his production from Israeli league to euro league. He did not get a single shot blocked in israeli league but in the euro league he got blocked like 9 times in 4 games and shot 25%.
His israeli league stats looked ok because the league is liw level and nobody could match up against a unique player like Bender.

A lot of people that saw Bender a lot compared him to Jan Vesely. That comparison still looks rather accurate.

I was a major opponent to us drafting Bender. I was advocating Chriss and Murray or Brown or taking Chriss at 4 and taking a flyer on Labissiere at 13.

McD post draft comments indicated that they were drafting Chriss at 4. The readon they took Bender at 4 was that Denver waspicking him at 7 and they knew Chriss would drop to 8.
Had they picked Chriss at 4 they could have gotten Murray at 8 possibly.

Anyway despite my strong feelings about Bender I dont get on forums to just continuously trash the guy especially without hard facts like what I have to read about Chriss by several posters.


I get it. You like Chriss and don't like Bender. And 11 PER is not good. 15 is an avg nba player. PER is a bad metric anyway. Chriss has had an easier adjustment due to reasons I stated before.
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Post#8 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:25 am

.
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Re: Game 56: Suns (17-38) vs Pelicans (21-34) 

Post#9 » by batsmasher » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:12 pm

Fultz2Book wrote:
batsmasher wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
[TANK]----

Marquese is without a doubt the worst starter in the league. Do not overlook how excellent a tank weapon he is.


No he is not, there are many worse starters. Sabonis for one.

But I bet it is tough for the horde of Sabonis fanboys on this board to admit that.

Chriss almost doubles Sabonis PER.

It is embarrassing how the mods on this board are trashing Chriss without anything to back up such ludicrous claims.


I did qualify it last week with this:

batsmasher wrote:It does. But I can't get over just how bad Marquese is with the starters. These are the worst 3 man lineups with > 300 mins. Marquese is without a doubt making the starters worse. Our bench would probably have issues if he didn't start too.

Image


My point was more that he is seriously amazing for tanking but you are correct.

Sabonis' advanced stats are god awful. Babbitt is the only other guy with a worse VORP than Marquese but whether you count him as a starter or not is another issue.

3 man lineups with 500 mins+
Image

So you could even say Reggie Jackson is the worst starter in the NBA.

I can comfortably argue that he's had the most negative influence on the team. We are the worst team in the West.
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it's ok bk i still love you.

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