yardbarker

NCAA Wiretap Headlines

Bogut Watch - now with AdonalFoyle4Prez's poll

Moderators: Sleepy51, Chris Porter's Hair, floppymoose

What will eventually become of Bogut this season?

Yes, he will come to play, just not right now. Just give him maybe 1-3 months to fully recover...
72
72%
No, he's damaged goods and will miss the entire season *sigh*
16
16%
Move/trade him. Milwaukee had the better end of the trade.
8
8%
Don't Care.
4
4%
 
Total votes : 100

Post#401 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:09 pm by TaylorMonkey

cellomac1212 wrote:All that was needed was to simply say we will take out some time to allow Bogut to fully heal. If you are going to say 7-10 days, you need to make it ultimately clear that those 7-10 days are for evaluation purposes only. Once those 7-10 days are done, the rehab will begin until 100% satisfaction is reached which could take some time. As management they did not make it ultimately clear (or they only made it ultimately clear for people like you). Once you notice there are many people unlike you (that aren't going to break down what should of been or at least seemed real simple), you will understand the reason I have a problem with how they handled it. OTOH, Bogut during his interview radio 2 or 3 days after the statement was made had no problem saying he won't play until he is ready (which could be out of the 7-10 day range).

Bogut was the one that said 7-10 days, and Myers did clarify that Bogut threw out that number as an evaluation/rest period. They pretty much did what you said they should do, and even admitted the number was just a number based on how Bogut himself was feeling. They never said it was a timetable they expected to follow rigidly, but was rather a hope and a break Bogut asked for based on how things looked to him at the time. They didn't want to say indefinitely, because that's complete vague and meaningless. The plan was simply wait 7-10 days, see what happens and hope for the best.

I'll just say that you might find the Warriors more enjoyable if you gave the front office a break once in awhile and just enjoy the actual basketball instead of constantly playing PR gotcha with them.
TaylorMonkey

Assistant Coach
User avatar
Posts: 3,906
And1: 508
Joined: Nov 29, 2010
Top

Post#402 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:32 pm by Jester_

Who cares how the media interprets it? Seriously? You're complaining about what Lacob says based on how the media interprets it? Admit it Cello, you're just looking for some way to discredit Lacob. If you were a fan of his management so far as most of us are, you wouldn't be making such a petty argument against him.

Me-thinks it's resentment for the Monta trade. :P
uteptwostep wrote:
Chris Porter's Hair wrote: I'm pretty in touch with the juggling community.


The name dropping on this board is getting out of control.
Jester_
Head Coach
Posts: 7,089
And1: 387
Joined: Mar 25, 2011
Top

Post#403 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:38 pm by EvanZ

FireNellieQuick wrote:Thats what they get for being honest and open: called liars.

Smh

Cmon cello. You and others misread it... Thats on you.


Were they open and honest about the 20-minute limit on Bogut to start the season? Myers said they knew about that since April, so why wasn't it made public until Opening Night?

I'm not calling them liars, but they weren't forthcoming with that fairly significant piece of information.
Harrison Barnes is garbage.

NBAWOWY.com
Find statistics of your favorite team with any arbitrary combination of players on or off the court.
EvanZ
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 5,802
And1: 307
Joined: Apr 5, 2011
Top

Post#404 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:44 pm by Mylie10

EvanZ wrote:
FireNellieQuick wrote:Thats what they get for being honest and open: called liars.

Smh

Cmon cello. You and others misread it... Thats on you.


Were they open and honest about the 20-minute limit on Bogut to start the season? Myers said they knew about that since April, so why wasn't it made public until Opening Night?

I'm not calling them liars, but they weren't forthcoming with that fairly significant piece of information.


Now based on what you're bringing up, I think Sleepy nailed it when he pointed out season ticket sales.

As for the 20 minute thing...they held pretty close to that 20 minutes. That was laid out by Bogut's doctor. Bogut wanted more minutes early on and then when the ankle didn't get back to the explosive level he wanted, he (Bogut) shut it down.

I think he was embarrased by missing the lob from Curry. To me, that's what set off the time table and shutting down. That's just my guess though.
"That kid with the Pink shoes!" Parker Allen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIHDf9_kk2c
Mylie10



RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 22,855
And1: 509
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Top

Post#405 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:48 pm by TaylorMonkey

cellomac1212 wrote:
TaylorMonkey wrote:You don't get to criticize management for a trade without considering what they *actually* did a week later with the "bloat" of the trade and how they made the team better. These "circumstances" that put us in tanking position were all considered and it's unfair to ignore them because they inconvenience a hack job on the FO.


For probably the third time now, I AM NOT CRITICIZING THE TRADE! I am however criticizing management for not shutting the F up. You conveniently forget about the trade being "transcendent," you conveniently forget about "not going to play until he is 100%," and now your forgetting about the "7-10 day timetable." None of this would even be considered by fans if the management was simply quiet about the situation or at least didn't make these predictions that have failed.

Seemed you were criticizing the trade, because you kept pointing out the lack of value we got back in the trade, because a gamble on a healing Bogut wasn't worth even a couple of role players, and because you take exception to considering the "bloat" of the trade when evaluating the trade. So you're okay with it and are only bugged by Lacob's enthusiasm over it?

I suppose I can understand, but I don't have a problem with it. It doesn't bug me like it bugs you. I don't find everything he says distasteful and I'm not very vested in fixating on every perceived screw up to justify a low opinion of the man. He's marketing the product and I can manage my own expectations based on my own realistic analysis.

I'm also not forgetting the 7-10 day timetable. I knew it wasn't set in stone, but was just a plan and hope based Bogut's own optimistic hunch. The real timetable is dictated only by Bogut's own ankle, and I'm wasn't going to be on an emotional roller coaster if he didn't come back then, because I didn't set myself up for massive disappointment if h. The Warriors didn't lie to me. They had hopeful and optimistic expectations that they themselves admitted were just hunches and a tentative game plan and I can read between the lines.


Why would any team in their right mind want Jefferson? We didn't want him, it was the only way we could pass off Jackson. Let's not forget Jackson is the better player of the two and if I'm not mistaken, actually cheaper as well. But it was a decent trade as luckily Festus is doing well.

The Spurs wanted Jackson. :) I know we didn't actually want him but like you say, Jackson was a better player than RJ. I was just pointing out that your original criticism of the trade regarding the fact that RJ could have been easily had was irrelevant. We got some value back in a pusher that had some ability to contribute, and turned his negative into a positive through a trade.

You are putting words in my mouth as I have never said the trade was a bad trade. I have however said that so far the trade is not doing what was promised to us by management and that promise was a "transcendent" center. So far we have only got an injured center who just may not recover in the way most are hoping for.

That sounds like the same thing. You're basically saying it wasn't a bad trade then, but it's a bad trade now until Bogut can play again. Or are you happy with the trade even if Bogut isn't transcendent but just didn't like the original marketing? If so, fine. I'm more interested in where the team is now and where it is going than hang onto one word Lacob uttered in an excited and hopeful moment. Bogut still has a chance to be that transcendent center with some luck, and I'm not going to constantly harp on Lacob while I wait.

You are the person bringing Monta into this. I am again just simply saying the management should be quiet and stop resorting to predictions that are continually failing.

Fine. I just don't think it's the most grievous of sins. The team is getting better, and Lacob's been quiet.

cellomac1212 wrote:Any productive player that can actually play basketball if it turns out Bogut is done.

Of course. Hindsight is 20/20. You get no prizes for figuring that out. But what player would you rather take now rather than gamble on Bogut healing?

Pretend you don't have a time machine and you have to make that call today-- because that's what real GMs have to do. They don't get to argue they can do a better job on a forum with perfect information in hindsight.

The biggest issue is you are arguing with me about something I am not arguing about. My point of all this (which has been the same for over a year now) is that management needs to stay in the background. Them trying to sell value to fans with their opinions just makes stuff worse when their opinion (or prediction) is wrong. IMO, better off not saying shis than making statements that are flat out wrong...
I understand that. I don't have a huge problem with it, but obviously the FO is learning to be more moderate as is Jackson. That's good. At the end of the day, I'm more interested in who's on the team and what's happening on the court than one word someone said 8 months ago in a fit of euphoria. And whether or not he said that word doesn't change how I feel about the team. The team is way more interesting than hounding a decent owner for every misstep and perceived flaw.
TaylorMonkey

Assistant Coach
User avatar
Posts: 3,906
And1: 508
Joined: Nov 29, 2010
Top

Post#406 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:48 pm by floppymoose

watch1958 wrote:Listen to the Myers interview, how did Myers string anyone along? He says that Bogut picked the 7-10 days. He says they could say "indefinitely". He says it could be more or less time depending on how Bogut reacted to treatment. He said "we don't know" about as many ways as possible.


He also was explicitly asked about negative fan reaction if Bogut was out more than 10 days. And Meyers more or less said that he expected that and there wasn't much they could do about it. It comes with the territory when you are rolling with the best information you have but are addressing an audience who demand perfect knowledge immediately.
floppymoose
Forum Mod - Warriors
Forum Mod - Warriors
User avatar
Posts: 40,264
And1: 296
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Top

Post#407 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:46 pm by FireNellieQuick

EvanZ wrote:
Were they open and honest about the 20-minute limit on Bogut to start the season? Myers said they knew about that since April, so why wasn't it made public until Opening Night?

I'm not calling them liars, but they weren't forthcoming with that fairly significant piece of information.


Well for starters, there's no way that something said in April carries into late October without progress checks. It's not even significant if they did it 2 weeks before even - things can change exceptionally quickly. For them to warn about something that was over 6 months away would have been a bad PR move, and just a useless move overall. Trying to tie it to season tickets or some other reason to try and bash... its a weak excuse.

Personally I dont think doctors really have any idea to correlate how injured = how much playing time. I cant count how many times I told football players to limit their downs, play one side of the ball, etc etc... to have them back the next week after playing every down both ways. To me, any time a medical person puts a time restriction on someone, its to cover their own ass. Got injured? Did you play exactly under the minutes I told you? Well then its your fault. The equivalent of a dentist telling you to floss, or a doctor telling a fat person to eat healthy. It really doesn't bear weight.

But the fact that it was 6 months before-hand and people are trying to make that seem sinister... well, I think thats a weakly veiled agenda argument. Do you guys value what Rush's prognosis is, right this second? Or do details matter way way down the line?
Mark Jackson wrote:Game preparation is overrated.
FireNellieQuick



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 33,836
And1: 362
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
Location: De-funked
Top

Post#408 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:45 am by cladden

FireNellieQuick wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
Were they open and honest about the 20-minute limit on Bogut to start the season? Myers said they knew about that since April, so why wasn't it made public until Opening Night?

I'm not calling them liars, but they weren't forthcoming with that fairly significant piece of information.


Well for starters, there's no way that something said in April carries into late October without progress checks. It's not even significant if they did it 2 weeks before even - things can change exceptionally quickly. For them to warn about something that was over 6 months away would have been a bad PR move, and just a useless move overall. Trying to tie it to season tickets or some other reason to try and bash... its a weak excuse.

Personally I dont think doctors really have any idea to correlate how injured = how much playing time. I cant count how many times I told football players to limit their downs, play one side of the ball, etc etc... to have them back the next week after playing every down both ways. To me, any time a medical person puts a time restriction on someone, its to cover their own ass. Got injured? Did you play exactly under the minutes I told you? Well then its your fault. The equivalent of a dentist telling you to floss, or a doctor telling a fat person to eat healthy. It really doesn't bear weight.

But the fact that it was 6 months before-hand and people are trying to make that seem sinister... well, I think thats a weakly veiled agenda argument. Do you guys value what Rush's prognosis is, right this second? Or do details matter way way down the line?



+1 Noone would ever volunteer such a prognosis for no good reason having very little knowledge of whether it's going to be true at the time. People need to realize that the Warriors needs to do what's best for the Warriors which includes not randomly delivering long-term negative predictions just before season ticket sales start. I kinda didn't expect that from Evanz. Would your company do this? Would you have done it if you ran the Warriors?
cladden
Sixth Man
User avatar
Posts: 1,824
And1: 74
Joined: Oct 12, 2006
Top

Post#409 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:16 pm by EvanZ

cladden wrote:
+1 Noone would ever volunteer such a prognosis for no good reason having very little knowledge of whether it's going to be true at the time. People need to realize that the Warriors needs to do what's best for the Warriors which includes not randomly delivering long-term negative predictions just before season ticket sales start. I kinda didn't expect that from Evanz. Would your company do this? Would you have done it if you ran the Warriors?


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a minute. This was not "random". This was a plan set in motion several months prior. To quote someone famous, "This was the PROCESS." Oh wait, it's right here in plain English.

Ferkel -- who has repaired the ankles of Ray Allen and Manu Ginobili -- recommended from the beginning that Bogut be on the shelf for six months. Then, he laid out "the process," which limits him to 20 minutes per game, prohibits playing in back-to-back games and calls for constant monitoring.

At the end of November, Ferkel and the Warriors' doctors will come up with the next phase of the plan based on Bogut's progress.

"Bogut has been cleared," Warriors general manager Bob Myers explained. "But if you're a runner and you injure your foot, you don't immediately come back and run a marathon."


So if your idea is that they didn't know for sure, well, I disagree. The moral implications are for everyone to decide for themselves.
Harrison Barnes is garbage.

NBAWOWY.com
Find statistics of your favorite team with any arbitrary combination of players on or off the court.
EvanZ
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 5,802
And1: 307
Joined: Apr 5, 2011
Top

Post#410 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:22 pm by FireNellieQuick

Are you suggesting that plans can't and shouldnt change? That medicine is an exact science that can be predicted? Because that seems to be the implication.

If we were in a close game in November and Bogut was ahead of schedule, bet your ass Bogut would play more than 20 minutes, Ferkel or not. Ditto back to back games. There's again no reason for the Warriors to relay news like that when they really don't know whether or not it's going to be applicable 6 months down the road.
Mark Jackson wrote:Game preparation is overrated.
FireNellieQuick



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 33,836
And1: 362
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
Location: De-funked
Top

Post#411 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:19 pm by EvanZ

FireNellieQuick wrote:Are you suggesting that plans can't and shouldnt change? That medicine is an exact science that can be predicted? Because that seems to be the implication.



I'm curious about something. If the idea is that they shouldn't report on things that are unknown why is it ok for them to speculate like this?

“A timetable for the return to basketball-related activities for Curry and Bogut will be determined following surgery, but both players are expected to be ready for the start of training camp in October."


http://blog.sfgate.com/warriors/2012/04 ... and-bogut/

That's from a story back in April. Now, I imagine you're going to say that it's ok, because they said "expected to be ready" and so there is clearly some qualification there.

But we now know that they also "expected" that Bogut would be on a minutes restriction, yet you won't find a single quote to that effect from before a few weeks ago. Why is that?

$$$
Harrison Barnes is garbage.

NBAWOWY.com
Find statistics of your favorite team with any arbitrary combination of players on or off the court.
EvanZ
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 5,802
And1: 307
Joined: Apr 5, 2011
Top

Post#412 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:27 pm by FireNellieQuick

We're now into breaking down things way beyond reason. What's ready? Does that mean 100%? Does it mean they'll be able to participate at a reduced %?

I mean we can break down this stuff all the way down to syllables. The point is that they never needed to address something specfic 6 months in advance because that's ridiculous. And they didn't, even in your most recent post. Medicine is far too random to do that.
Mark Jackson wrote:Game preparation is overrated.
FireNellieQuick



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 33,836
And1: 362
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
Location: De-funked
Top

Post#413 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:07 pm by EvanZ

FireNellieQuick wrote:We're now into breaking down things way beyond reason. What's ready? Does that mean 100%? Does it mean they'll be able to participate at a reduced %?

I mean we can break down this stuff all the way down to syllables. The point is that they never needed to address something specfic 6 months in advance because that's ridiculous. And they didn't, even in your most recent post. Medicine is far too random to do that.


You sound like a PR professional. Let's be honest here. They were not entirely forthcoming with the regimen he was going to be on. There was no legal obligation to disclose it. But where we differ is that I think there was a moral obligation to tell the fans what was up, to the best of their knowledge.

They did have a plan. And they actually did stick to that plan. They just didn't tell the fans about it until the tickets were sold.
Harrison Barnes is garbage.

NBAWOWY.com
Find statistics of your favorite team with any arbitrary combination of players on or off the court.
EvanZ
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 5,802
And1: 307
Joined: Apr 5, 2011
Top

Post#414 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:13 pm by GSForever

Ws management is doing everything they can to do the right thing. Thing is a big rugged C like Bogut. An extreme ankle injury hard to predict for a player of his size. Treatment and practice can't simulate fame situation
GSForever
Banned User
Posts: 4,340
And1: 10
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Top

Post#415 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:17 pm by FireNellieQuick

In medicine, we go to an obscene # of conferences yearly, because the saying is that everything you knew 2 years ago is now obsolete.

Now you are right, there's no legal obligation to disclose it. There's also no obligation to follow it. There's also no reason for them to announce what a doctor's prediction is for something 6 months down the road. Even as a professional, even as good as Ferkel is, you cannot be consistently accurate with that kind of analysis 6 months down the road. You can give an average, but that's about it. So withholding that isn't really withholding information. It's not information. It's a guess that can and shouldn't be counted on, educated as it may be.

In fact, I would think Ferkel's strategy, from the W's side, would represent the worst case scenario for the W's. If he's not 100% opening day, they go with Ferkel's guidelines.
Mark Jackson wrote:Game preparation is overrated.
FireNellieQuick



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 33,836
And1: 362
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
Location: De-funked
Top

Post#416 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:54 pm by Souvlaki

Who cares when Bogut comes back. We only have 20 minutes (if that) for the center position a night anyway.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell
Souvlaki
Head Coach
Posts: 6,148
And1: 3
Joined: Mar 1, 2003
Location: Doing wheelies on my Moped
Top

Post#417 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:24 pm by Badly Browned

Souvlaki wrote:Who cares when Bogut comes back. We only have 20 minutes (if that) for the center position a night anyway.


Nah, Bogut comes back and that means less Lee-Landry in the 4th.
I am unique, just like everybody else
Badly Browned
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,973
And1: 25
Joined: Mar 20, 2009
Top

Post#418 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:28 pm by 9abovetherim

Badly Browned wrote:
Souvlaki wrote:Who cares when Bogut comes back. We only have 20 minutes (if that) for the center position a night anyway.


Nah, Bogut comes back and that means less Lee-Landry in the 4th.

like 2 minutes less. :wink:

you're welcome, signed by Mark Jackson.
9abovetherim
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,131
And1: 69
Joined: Mar 30, 2010
Top

Post#419 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:42 pm by FireNellieQuick

:nonono:

You guys are aware that statistically they've been our best combo right?

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213GSW2.HTM

I didnt believe it til I saw it either... but our offense takes a super spike and our eFGA is off the charts good at .370 and .379... we usually win the TO and rebounding battles too with those two.
Mark Jackson wrote:Game preparation is overrated.
FireNellieQuick



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 33,836
And1: 362
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
Location: De-funked
Top

Post#420 Re: Bogut Watch - out 7 to 10... years?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 am by Frank Mulely

bottom line anybody who expected Bogut to come back and play like he did before he got his injur(ies) was just naive. stop listening to team hype and use your brain. plenty of us were on the board expressing skepticism that Bogut was going to just come right back and dominate this year. this is a recovery year and most likely Bogut will not get back to a reasonable facsimile of his old self until next year.

the real issue here is fans are incredibly gullible and fell for all those rosy pre-season projects of the Warriors being a playoff team this year. come on now. honestly the only way that happens is if Barnes starts really dominating.
Shv3d wrote:
Frank Mulely wrote:Honestly if this was the 80s

The official motto of RealGM.
Frank Mulely
Head Coach
User avatar
Posts: 6,847
And1: 632
Joined: Sep 4, 2009
Location: gone phishing
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Golden State Warriors


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: whocurrz