OT: Raiders least desirable team to play for

[Twinkie defense]

I think Reggie ought to pick the entire coaching staff this time if he's not getting one of those big time HCs like Gruden or Harbaugh. The staff here was assembled by Allen, not Reggie. Only Allen was Reggie's hire.

Oh god no. For the sake of argument let's say Reggie has a keen eye for talent, in the draft and free agency. That would mean he did a terrible job of finding the coach that could put together a staff and put the players in position to succeed. No chance do you give Reggie an opportunity to flub that again. And anyway what coach comes to a place where he doesn't get to pick his assistants? Only a bottom of the barrel coach who has no other options.

Reggie's not even going to have an opportunity to pick his own head coach next time around - that's what happens when three years in you're on pace for 0-16 - you get privileges taken away. Reggie is on double secret probation, for good reason. And he's about to be Larry Riley'ed.

PS "he" would not be getting a big time HC like Gruden or Harbaugh. He would be getting fired to make room for Gruden's or Harbaugh's hand-picked personnel guy.

Sure. Dennis Allen was not a good coach. Though, again, finding a coach that would willingly tarnish himself in the aftermath of Hurricane Al and commit to an obvious long-term rebuilding program isn't exactly easy. Take Jacksonville, a bottom barrel team the past few seasons. They've swung and missed on about 50+% of their 1st round picks since 2005. They have a proven smart coach in Gus Bradley. 1-5 team. Then look at NYJ. And TB. And tell me why they are in the same spots: Busts of 1st round picks. Sure, TB has McCoy, Jets have Sheldon Richardson, Jags have Joeckel (I guess). Who do the Raiders have since their SB season?

1 pro bowler: Nmandi Awesomewah, in 2003. Then its Gallery, Fabian Washington, Huff, JaMarcus, McFadden, DHB, McClain, a trade for Richard Seymour, a trade for Carson Palmer.. that's how our roster was built. All while committing huge money to those players, and equally terrible players via free agency, to win a total of 53 games in 10 years. And bear in mind, this is while we're selling out prospects and signing people to massive deals to stay 'competitive'.

Coaches not picking their DCs or OCs has happened for a long time. Kiffin stayed in TB forever. Ditto Garrett in Dallas. Some have a say in their staff, some have control over it. Big difference. Regardless, its clear you are unable to understand context and simply can only look at the bottom line. Good luck with that. If you ever want to make bets, on anything, I'll always be available.

IDK what you're on about - like I said Reggie is not going to be able to pick the next Raiders' head coach's assistants - he's not even going to be able to pick the HC by himself. Do you disagree? In fact odds are Reggie is dead man walking.

[Twinkie defense]

Spending it wisely, maybe? Preparing for the future, the more important focus, over trying to worsen our draft position when its very possible 3 of the 4 teams in our division make the playoffs?

You guys are doing nothing other than convincing me more how solid of a job Reggie is doing.. unlike the Raiders of old who would completely sell out for a couple of wins, we're actually focusing on, and committing to, our future. FINALLY.

I hear what you saying FNQ, but we are on pace to be 0-16. I rather put up some money during free agency and hurt our chances a little bit during the NFL Draft than to be 0-16.

I wouldn't. If you're gonna suck, be the absolute worst team in the league. If you want a title, try for the absolute best team. You don't want to end up a middling playoff team like the Cowboys were for so long or a middling crap team like the Sacto Kings, getting mid top ten picks and having to gamble on non-elite talent.

Especially in football, the best way to build is the draft.

Then we should trade our players and picks for future picks and draft injured players. That does not seem to be the MO though, unless 0-16 is some brilliant scheme that Reggie's draft picks and FA signings are a part of. Like if Reggie purposely cut and didn't resign players, and signed FAs, with the intention that they would suck

If that's the plan, fine. Just be honest about the plan. Don't talk about how this season is the turnaround season. But we know that is not the plan... Reggie has been trying to win... just look at the expression on his face during games, he's a ghost already.

[FNQ]

Looks like he tried real hard, what with all the one year contracts he put out there.

What sense does it make to trade 2015 picks for 2016 picks? What vets do we have that are worth really anything on the trade market?

The idea of not trying really hard to win games does not = cut everyone, trade everyone, sign people from the street. Move the conversation forward please. Re-stating someone's idea in a way that makes no sense is sad, and usually the sign of someone losing a logical argument.

[510TWSS]

I hear what you saying FNQ, but we are on pace to be 0-16. I rather put up some money during free agency and hurt our chances a little bit during the NFL Draft than to be 0-16.

I wouldn't. If you're gonna suck, be the absolute worst team in the league. If you want a title, try for the absolute best team. You don't want to end up a middling playoff team like the Cowboys were for so long or a middling crap team like the Sacto Kings, getting mid top ten picks and having to gamble on non-elite talent.

Especially in football, the best way to build is the draft.

Wow

I'm not saying to be 8-8, 7-9, or 9-7. Be 4-12, 3-13, 2-14, or hell, even 1-15 as painful these records sound to rebuild, BUT NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER BE 0-16!

Heh. Just show up vs the Niners

I agree in football it's different than the NBA because there is good talent most years in the first round. You just have to pick wisely but a game changing talent can be found in the 1st. Starting caliber/potential players in the 2nd and developmental players in the 3rd. Geno Atkins is a beast on the same tier as Suh and Atkins went 120th overall whereas Suh was selected 2nd (was viewed as the 1st overall for a majority of that year, too).

The Raiders have just blown 1st rounder after 1st rounder routinely in the early 2000's and when we didn't we were trading them away for veterans. I hate being winless as well, but at this point we're well up the creek with the paddle floating down river about 5 games ago. Just hope the kids stay healthy, hungry and motivated and get as much development as they can handle.

[Twinkie defense]

Looks like he tried real hard, what with all the one year contracts he put out there.

What sense does it make to trade 2015 picks for 2016 picks? What vets do we have that are worth really anything on the trade market?

The idea of not trying really hard to win games does not = cut everyone, trade everyone, sign people from the street. Move the conversation forward please. Re-stating someone's idea in a way that makes no sense is sad, and usually the sign of someone losing a logical argument.

If you don't want to engage the facts, you can resort to whatever logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks you want... Reggie said they were going to win. Instead, they are the worst Raiders team in modern memory. The record speaks for itself. I don't know what more there is to say. You may believe that the team has some five-year complete teardown plan and they are only angling for high draft picks, but nothing the franchise has said, nothing Reggie has said, backs that up - in fact they have said the opposite. And the final proof will be when Reggie gets fired, which will be soon enough.

[FNQ]

/pity party

Every team always says they want to win. Its called PR. Then most of the time, their actions match their words. Ours didn't. It's naive to just believe every PR word spoken, but its the entire crux of all of your arguments.

The Raiders are in a great position with their GM. They have definite cause to let him go if they find someone better, or have candidates who they feel are better. Holmgren didn't stumble into Raiders HQ on accident. But, they also have the option of leaving it with Reggie, who's done what's needed to help fix the franchise. It all depends on whether or not Mark is happy with Reggie's draft choices. It's a far better means of evaluating than basing it on FA signings, which were designed to try and make us competitive while maintaining our cap flexibility. With the latter being the obvious priority.

But then they said they want to win, so I is confused!

[runtmc91]

Would you do this trade?

As the NFL's trading deadline -- Tuesday, Oct. 28, at 4 p.m. ET -- approaches, we explore four explosive, albeit unlikely, possible deals.

Proposed trade No. 3:
Eagles trade running back LeSean McCoy, linebacker Brandon Graham and 2015 second-round and fifth-round picks to the Oakland Raiders for their (potential No. 1 overall) 2015 first-round pick

...The Raiders are in the driver's seat to produce the pick that delivers Mariota, who has already mastered Kelly's mind-melting, slash-and-burn offense.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/hot ... nd-raiders

[DynastySS]

Remember when I said we are going 0-16?

I stand by that statement.

[FNQ]

No way. McCoy may or may not be on the decline, or may be a product of Kelly's system himself. With the state of the RB position these days, I'd rather take fliers in the later rounds and see if you can hit there. The top picks should be devoted to the toughest positions to fill: LT, pass rusher, QB, #1 pass catcher, and DT. Unless you are getting a bona-fide elite player at one of the other positions (and I mean top 2-3 in the league), there's just no way you make the deal.

It does sound like an Al Davis deal though.

[510TWSS]

What the hell, no right minded GM would ever do that deal proposed with Philly.

[Twinkie defense]

If the Raiders have the #1 overall pick they should be able to turn that into a bunch of high picks. I haven't been thinking about the draft yet; if there is a star QB going #1 they should trade the pick, load up on additional picks. But if there is a WR or QB-rushing star going #1 overall Raiders should take him.

[FNQ]

Randy Gregory is a top pass rusher, but he projects more as a 3-4 OLB/DE. Vic Beasley is more of a pure OLB, but plays the same position as Mack and has a lot of the same qualities. Leonard Williams is a huge anchor of a lineman who could play DT or DE - a much, much, much better version of Lamaar Houston.

Amari Cooper is by far the best WR in the draft, but at only 6'1, he has a lot of potential to disappoint as a top 3 pick.

The #1 pick is almost guaranteed to be Mariota. Outside chances for Gregory, Beasley, Williams, and even Jameis Winston if he gets his act together off the field. Ogbuhei and Peat, both mauling LTs, are dark horses.

[whocurrz]

Again not a Raider fan so I don't know the team as well as all of you guys but I think Carr has the potential to be a very good QB. His mobility and arm are Cutler-esque. He's already making your O line look much better than it is. If he has a good coach and is a hard worker I think he can be what Bears fans hope Cutler would become every year. Invest in the trenches like FNQ said (either OT or DT as Mack is a beast and the QBs all have big question marks). Surround Carr with some weapons and with a good coach the rebuild can go quickly.

A good coach and good lines on both sides of the ball is the right way to go. That's how the Niners have been successful along with good LBs. We haven't had an elite QB, elite WRs, elite DBs or safeties and Gore has been on the decline for a couple years now physically and we have been very successful with the formula. Owning the line of scrimmage and good playcalling on offense helps sustain long drives on offense which eventually break a defense. This gives you well-rested defense a big advantage if you have guys who can control the line of scrimmage and a good pass rush (Mack) which will go along way as long as the CBs aren't terrible.

[510TWSS]

Again not a Raider fan so I don't know the team as well as all of you guys but I think Carr has the potential to be a very good QB. His mobility and arm are Cutler-esque. He's already making your O line look much better than it is. If he has a good coach and is a hard worker I think he can be what Bears fans hope Cutler would become every year. Invest in the trenches like FNQ said (either OT or DT as Mack is a beast and the QBs all have big question marks). Surround Carr with some weapons and with a good coach the rebuild can go quickly.

A good coach and good lines on both sides of the ball is the right way to go. That's how the Niners have been successful along with good LBs. We haven't had an elite QB, elite WRs, elite DBs or safeties and Gore has been on the decline for a couple years now physically and we have been very successful with the formula. Owning the line of scrimmage and good playcalling on offense helps sustain long drives on offense which eventually break a defense. This gives you well-rested defense a big advantage if you have guys who can control the line of scrimmage and a good pass rush (Mack) which will go along way as long as the CBs aren't terrible.

Think the Niners re-sign both Mike Lupati and Crabs this offseason? Who'd you rather sign. I'd probably go Lupati, but I can see an argument for both. The offensive line has been dominant especially in run blocking the last few years. Crabs is a solid receiver but may want more than he deserves. It's tough, maybe with the addition of Stevie Brown and bringing Lloyd back makes it easier to allow Crabs to walk.

I could see the Raiders trying to poach Lupati in FA. Coach is going to be huge going forward. I hope they knock it out of the park.

[510TWSS]

Randy Gregory is a top pass rusher, but he projects more as a 3-4 OLB/DE. Vic Beasley is more of a pure OLB, but plays the same position as Mack and has a lot of the same qualities. Leonard Williams is a huge anchor of a lineman who could play DT or DE - a much, much, much better version of Lamaar Houston.

Amari Cooper is by far the best WR in the draft, but at only 6'1, he has a lot of potential to disappoint as a top 3 pick.

The #1 pick is almost guaranteed to be Mariota. Outside chances for Gregory, Beasley, Williams, and even Jameis Winston if he gets his act together off the field. Ogbuhei and Peat, both mauling LTs, are dark horses.

Thing I hear is Gregory gets washed out in the run game at times and is a little light. Will benefit from the NFL strength and conditioning program. He'd be a candidate if we trade down. We'd have a glut of young OLB's, but perhaps Sio can move to an ILB position if we choose to go full time 3-4 front next year. We're already a part time 3-4 this year, but who know who the coach will be.

What do you know about this year's DE class. Alvin Dupree is supposed to be a physical freak. Shane Ray from mizzou also is getting pre-draft buzz in the Top 10.

I think there's better value in the 2nd or with a trade down for this year's WR class. In addition to Cooper I like Kevin White and Devante Parker. Both may not make it to our 2nd round pick but I think you could then go with Jaelen Strong or Devin Funchess if we're looking at receiving playmakers.

At this point with the top pick in the draft without a trade down it's probably Leonard Williams. He's versatile in different fronts/positions and can be a factor in both run/pass.

[whocurrz]

Again not a Raider fan so I don't know the team as well as all of you guys but I think Carr has the potential to be a very good QB. His mobility and arm are Cutler-esque. He's already making your O line look much better than it is. If he has a good coach and is a hard worker I think he can be what Bears fans hope Cutler would become every year. Invest in the trenches like FNQ said (either OT or DT as Mack is a beast and the QBs all have big question marks). Surround Carr with some weapons and with a good coach the rebuild can go quickly.

A good coach and good lines on both sides of the ball is the right way to go. That's how the Niners have been successful along with good LBs. We haven't had an elite QB, elite WRs, elite DBs or safeties and Gore has been on the decline for a couple years now physically and we have been very successful with the formula. Owning the line of scrimmage and good playcalling on offense helps sustain long drives on offense which eventually break a defense. This gives you well-rested defense a big advantage if you have guys who can control the line of scrimmage and a good pass rush (Mack) which will go along way as long as the CBs aren't terrible.

Think the Niners re-sign both Mike Lupati and Crabs this offseason? Who'd you rather sign. I'd probably go Lupati, but I can see an argument for both. The offensive line has been dominant especially in run blocking the last few years. Crabs is a solid receiver but may want more than he deserves. It's tough, maybe with the addition of Stevie Brown and bringing Lloyd back makes it easier to allow Crabs to walk.

I could see the Raiders trying to poach Lupati in FA. Coach is going to be huge going forward. I hope they knock it out of the park.

I would have definitely thought Crabtree but Bolden has been so good that maybe they move on from crabs and draft a WR. Although Balke has been bad with his WR draft picks so who knows. We also have to think about Vernon who I think is more of a priority than Crabtree as he's more of a big play weapon and good in the run game. I think Iupati walks. Haven't really even heard talks of extension with him, more hold ups with Boone who has been better and can play almost any position on the line. Plus elite Gs are available later in the draft so if the Niners want they could draft Iupati''s replacement. He's still young enough and at a position of importance that he'd be a solid signing for the raiders and help develop a run game.

[Twinkie defense]

Reg, what has happened recently to get you so high on this 0-12, working on 0-22 team?

Words cannot express how angry I am that we drafted Hayden.

I may be in the minority, but I think Reggie is botching this draft. Lines are where the game is won, and we have a terrible defensive line right now, and have watched some serious talent go right by us. I'm not a fan of any CB taken in the 1st round unless you are already a playoff team looking to find a HR talent. But starting a rebuild with a CB? To make it worth it, the guy has to be AwesomeWah quality, and even then, we had AwesomeWah for a long time on crappy teams. Just avoid who he's guarding, and he's a non-impact.

Then we draft a raw 25 y/o T... and pair it up with a LB, who I admittedly dont know much about, but I do know there were 2 high quality DTs on the board (Jesse Williams and DaMontre) and we let them go by in round 3. In Round 2, we let the Giants take Big Hank, who should have been a 1st rounder.

Ugh. I dont think anyone we've drafted is really bad, but I think our draft philosophy sucks. One lineman so far... I'm extremely disappointed in Reggie.

Good god, we're paying more for a downgrade.

Same sh*t different Davis.

[FNQ]

Randy Gregory is a top pass rusher, but he projects more as a 3-4 OLB/DE. Vic Beasley is more of a pure OLB, but plays the same position as Mack and has a lot of the same qualities. Leonard Williams is a huge anchor of a lineman who could play DT or DE - a much, much, much better version of Lamaar Houston.

Amari Cooper is by far the best WR in the draft, but at only 6'1, he has a lot of potential to disappoint as a top 3 pick.

The #1 pick is almost guaranteed to be Mariota. Outside chances for Gregory, Beasley, Williams, and even Jameis Winston if he gets his act together off the field. Ogbuhei and Peat, both mauling LTs, are dark horses.

Thing I hear is Gregory gets washed out in the run game at times and is a little light. Will benefit from the NFL strength and conditioning program. He'd be a candidate if we trade down. We'd have a glut of young OLB's, but perhaps Sio can move to an ILB position if we choose to go full time 3-4 front next year. We're already a part time 3-4 this year, but who know who the coach will be.

What do you know about this year's DE class. Alvin Dupree is supposed to be a physical freak. Shane Ray from mizzou also is getting pre-draft buzz in the Top 10.

I think there's better value in the 2nd or with a trade down for this year's WR class. In addition to Cooper I like Kevin White and Devante Parker. Both may not make it to our 2nd round pick but I think you could then go with Jaelen Strong or Devin Funchess if we're looking at receiving playmakers.

At this point with the top pick in the draft without a trade down it's probably Leonard Williams. He's versatile in different fronts/positions and can be a factor in both run/pass.

Agree on Leonard Wlliams. Love James White. People say he's like Fitz, I agree. Funchess, IMO, is best used as a move TE. Dunno if that hurts or helps his value. But the production isn't as good as it should be, yet. Not sure why.

I dont know much about the DE class honestly. It's our biggest weakness, and no one that I've heard of is near the top of mocks. Might be a position we try and fill via free agency.

As good as L.Williams is, I hope we don't take him. He's a very safe pick, and a potentially great DT. Top run stuffer. My concern is that DT isn't an impact position, and we have capable guys in the waiting right now. Jelly and McGee should be OK to start next year, and I'd rather go that route. All that said, Williams might make a very, very good run-stopping LE.

[FNQ]

So twinkie, since you asked, I think its pretty self-explanatory: I hate the idea of taking a CB in round 1, especially for a rebuilding team. I've said that all along. That doesn't make Hayden a bust like you've been laughably touting. It means I think the way Reggie went about it is lousy. I didn't like us taking a 25 y/o rookie either, but he's just completed his 2nd game of mauling linemen in a row. Thankfully, at least on day 2, I was ignored. The DTs I wanted are flaming out, and the guys we've taken instead are trending upwards by all reports.

I originally thought Veldheer ---> Saffold was a downgrade. Was wrong, Saffold was grading out much higher. The injury concern was what kept Saffold's value down. He was grading out higher at LT this year, but has now moved to LG to allow #2 pick Robinson to start. Robinson hasn't started off well. Bust. Fire the GM.

The difference is that I wanted the turnaround to happen this year, too. I didn't yet understand the cap ramnifications of the past 2 years and why last year was always meant to be a throwaway year to develop internally. Obvious now, but then? Not so much. Additionally, it was Reggie's 1st draft, and I still have a huge problem with drafting DJ Hayden. And I've mentioned it in this thread. So really, your post is either a subtle nod to the fact that you are just spitting out meaningless rhetoric and not actually engaging in any kind of meaningful back and forth, or (for your benefit, a 2nd option we both know that isn't true) you've just forgotten it. Either way, keep the space eating posts coming. Looking forward to seeing something true or insightful, just to change things up.

[Twinkie defense]

Lol, OK.