Is Klay better than current Wade/Kobe?

[Onus]

Onus if you're not going to mention the FACT that Klays numbers are negatively affected by the role he is playing on defense then how can you discuss this honestly?

And you keep saying help defense has more of a positive impact on defense....ok let's agree on that, but Klays role has him in areas where there is a far less opportunity to help.....don't you agree that help defense and it's impact is way more important for bigs and forwards and not people who typically are guarding the point of impact, or way out on the perimeter. Most defenses try to funnel their men to help...Bogut talked at length about training our defenders to funnel to him.

I would agree that there its an area that Klay could improve in.....great.....but in his current role that advanced stats aren't taking into consideration his actual role.

And as for switching Iguodala and Klays roles.....I get why you'd like to do that and get Klay some rest for offense, but Iguodalas numbers would suffer in that same role and we might lose him all together if his older legs need to chase small point guards around.

Oh and stop being such a dick....so tired.

So I've already posited that help defense has a larger impact on defense according to the stats. Klay's role is at the point of attack and hence forth doesn't help as often. HAPPY?!? I mean that seems like a logical deduction.

However there are other primary defenders who do show up on these stats as having an impact whose primary job is to guard the primary ball handler such as Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, Patrick Beverly and not to mention all the small forwards. Somehow the stats are able to capture their impact while singling out Klay Thompson because Stats hate Klay Thompson. :shrug:

But I agree help defense is more prevalent in bigs because they're basically in help position already. Unless you move out of the way like Lee does. That doesn't excuse wings from playing help defense though either. The whole team has to rotate and trust that your teammate will cover for you. Everyone on defense moves on a string and basically in unison.

So are you saying that Iguodala wasn't the greatest fit for this team and that the FO blew it again? Of course this is assuming Klay can play help defense the way Iguodala does.

And how am I being a dick? When these guys are adamantly arguing about something they don't even understand?

[Onus]

And yes now I'm being a dick because you were a dick first. Don't dish it out if you can't take it

^This is how a 12 year old (who wants to be suspended) responds

Being a retaliatory dickface is a violation of the rules and will get you punished just as swiftly as being a provocative dickface. You are not allowed to respond to fire with fire on this board. If someone waggles a dick in your face click the "!" button to report the post and a moderator will review and address the post as they see fit. Taking matters into your own hands is a violation of the TOS that you agreed to when you signed up for your account and will get you and your dick in hot water.

Buncha post docs arguing about their dicks in a basketball forum. SMH.

-S51

[Twinkie defense]

Jordan was killing us for most of that series. He's just too big and athletic for David Lee. Better him than Blake or CP3 though - make the lesser guys beat you. And if they do, hats off to them.

This ...

I did see Klay help on Griffin later in the series from time to time. And he was helping off of Paul....I remember this because I was very worried Paul was gonna stroke a three. But it was effective at times and I remember once where Klay effectively guarded both of them and we got a stop.

and this ...

should help you realize that our main focus was on stopping CP at the beginning of the series. Not until game 5 did we try and clamp down on Blake. Klay while doing a magnificent job didn't do it alone.

Blake Griffin did slow down after game three - he averaged 27.66 ppg in games 1-3 (even though he fouled out after just 19 minutes in game 1), and just 20 ppg in games 4-7 - but IDK if it was due so much to Mark Jackson deciding to "clamp down" on Blake. I remember Mark Jackson saying we're going to guard Blake Griffin one-on-one, and Lee's gonna be the man to do it. And I remember Jermain O'Neal going to Mark Jackson after Griffin went off again, scoring 35 and 32 points (on .765 and .600 shooting, respectively) in consecutive Warriors losses, and suggested that Draymond get the start.

Good defense is team defense, and every player needs to be mindful of where the ball is, and be prepared to help if a man gets beat, and also know when to sag from the weak side to help address a strong side threat. But we were never aggressively doubling anyone during that playoff series, and it was (pretty clearly, I thought) Draymond locking up Blake Griffin, rather than Mark Jackson throwing help defenders at Griffin, that slowed their offense down.

And you're absolutely crazy if you think Blake Griffin wasn't a huge priority for the team defensively throughout the entire series - our scheme was simply not to be doubling guys (unlike the Clips, who were aggressively doubling and even tripling Curry).

[Twinkie defense]

Again, I just don't think advanced metrics work that well on the defensive side right now - too much goes unmeasured. This may change when there are SportVU cameras in every arena, better analytical tools, and wider sharing of data and analysis, but in the mean time advanced defensive measures are limited and their findings all over the board.

If someone wants to make an argument based primarily on advanced defensive metrics they first have to explain:

- How is Steph Curry a League leader in Defensive Win Shares (#19, between Marcin Gortat and George Hill)?
- Why does CJ Watson have a higher defensive rating than Taj Gibson, Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, and Tony Allen?

And if you want to use these stats to explain why Klay is a defensively limited player, you should cite your stats and also explain:

- Why do opponents score fewer points when Klay is on the court, compared to when he is off the court?
- Why is Klay the only Warrior who appears in every top 20 Five-Man Floor Units?

[TrueStoryGSW]

Yes.

[old rem]

If you put Klay in LA in exchange for Kobe this season...the lakers would be one of the worst teams in the nba.

So you're saying there would be no difference?

Saw Kobe and LAL blown out a couple nights ago. Kobe was chuck and miss all night. He's past his prime. Wade is past his prime..but slightly youngrer. Both had injury issues. Klay has been durable, is still improving-not declining. Kobe and Wade are still talented but AGE and INJURY catches up with even top players. You lose a step and you lose a lot.

[Kuya]

Looking like Klay will easily be better than both of them this season.

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[turk3d]

maybe a better question: Will he be better than Harden this year? Maybe not, but with what he's doing lately, I'd say anything's possible. It'll be interesting when we play the Rockets. I imagine that Klay will be tasked to guard him. That will be a real test for him defensively.

[ChuckDurn]

maybe a better question: Will he be better than Harden this year? Maybe not, but with what he's doing lately, I'd say anything's possible. It'll be interesting when we play the Rockets. I imagine that Klay will be tasked to guard him. That will be a real test for him defensively.

I think Harden trying to guard Klay will be just as entertaining..... given Harden's legendary propensity to get lost off-the-ball, coupled with how much movement there seems to be in the new offensive system we're installing.....

[Onus]

maybe a better question: Will he be better than Harden this year? Maybe not, but with what he's doing lately, I'd say anything's possible. It'll be interesting when we play the Rockets. I imagine that Klay will be tasked to guard him. That will be a real test for him defensively.

I think Harden trying to guard Klay will be just as entertaining..... given Harden's legendary propensity to get lost off-the-ball, coupled with how much movement there seems to be in the new offensive system we're installing.....

We'll finally be able to take advantage of players who have awful off-ball defensive awareness. It was so frustrating watching Lee or Klay try to attack Haren straight up and then get turned away. Haren's actually decent on the ball.

[turk3d]

maybe a better question: Will he be better than Harden this year? Maybe not, but with what he's doing lately, I'd say anything's possible. It'll be interesting when we play the Rockets. I imagine that Klay will be tasked to guard him. That will be a real test for him defensively.

I think Harden trying to guard Klay will be just as entertaining..... given Harden's legendary propensity to get lost off-the-ball, coupled with how much movement there seems to be in the new offensive system we're installing.....

We'll finally be able to take advantage of players who have awful off-ball defensive awareness. It was so frustrating watching Lee or Klay try to attack Haren straight up and then get turned away. Haren's actually decent on the ball.

I think you're going to see a much better Klay this year in attacking the basket and if Harden decides to be lazy on D (which he has been known to do), he'll be the one getting burned this time around.

[Twinkie defense]

As the last of the ESPN player rankings trickle in, they have Klay at #38, ahead of Kobe and just one player (PG Rajon Rondo) behind D-Wade. We'll have to wait and see if any other SGs grade out higher.

But common perception does seem to make this question a valid question - it's not at all an absurd question.

Wade was hobbled last season but if he can recover he is still a dynamite player... too often we have a short-sighted, what have you done for me lately outlook. Luckily that helped us snag Andrew Bogut!

PS Iggy is #39. Presumably Steph is to come, which gives the Warriors three of the top 40 players in the NBA... this is why we shouldn't be happy with Mark Jackson's 51 wins and a first round playoff exit - last season was an underachieving squad.

[a8bil]

PS Iggy is #39. Presumably Steph is to come, which gives the Warriors three of the top 40 players in the NBA... this is why we shouldn't be happy with Mark Jackson's 51 wins and a first round playoff exit - last season was an underachieving squad.

And to add to that, a healthy, integrated Bogut is arguably top 40 as well, which only adds to your argument. Bogut wasn't there to help in the playoffs, but yes, a better regular season showing should have been in the cards with this much talent.

[likashing]

We are the #3 defense team (99.9 points per 100 possessions) over the regular season, so something was done right. Klay plays 35 minutes per game. Of the 13 minutes he doesn't play, we give up ~2 points more per 100 possessions. Giving up 2 points more will make us the #7 defensive team. So either we have a good system that still works when Klay is off the court, or what Klay does well in defense (on-ball defense) is just not as important as his fans think.

Klay's definitely a plus on defense, but is it as great as what his fans think?

To me, the bottom line on defense is to give up as few points as possible per possession. I don't care how you do it or if you use mental power to make your opponents miss FTs.

However, I do believe in regular season is different from the playoffs. The regular season is about odds and probabilities, while the playoffs are about matchups. Sometimes things that work during the regular season can be exploited by your opponents in the playoffs due to matchup and just the extra time available for preparation (which Mark Jackson does not believe in I guess... sorry couldn't help putting in another jab @ him)

[a8bil]

We are the #3 defense team (99.9 points per 100 possessions) over the regular season, so something was done right. Klay plays 35 minutes per game. Of the 13 minutes he doesn't play, we give up ~2 points more per 100 possessions. Giving up 2 points more will make us the #7 defensive team. So either we have a good system that still works when Klay is off the court, or what Klay does well in defense (on-ball defense) is just not as important as his fans think.

Klay's definitely a plus on defense, but is it as great as what his fans think?

To me, the bottom line on defense is to give up as few points as possible per possession. I don't care how you do it or if you use mental power to make your opponents miss FTs.

However, I do believe in regular season is different from the playoffs. The regular season is about odds and probabilities, while the playoffs are about matchups. Sometimes things that work during the regular season can be exploited by your opponents in the playoffs due to matchup and just the extra time available for preparation (which Mark Jackson does not believe in I guess... sorry couldn't help putting in another jab @ him)

Klay plays a lot of minutes on the floor, and I would venture to guess nearly 95% of his time is against the opponents starters. When Klay is off the floor, it is invariably the other team's second string offense. The small difference in points allowed between when Klay is on or off, likely has more to do with the quality of the opposing offense than our defensive scheme. Just look at our second team offense last year...it was pathetic.

[a8bil]

We are the #3 defense team (99.9 points per 100 possessions) over the regular season, so something was done right. Klay plays 35 minutes per game. Of the 13 minutes he doesn't play, we give up ~2 points more per 100 possessions. Giving up 2 points more will make us the #7 defensive team. So either we have a good system that still works when Klay is off the court, or what Klay does well in defense (on-ball defense) is just not as important as his fans think.

Klay's definitely a plus on defense, but is it as great as what his fans think?

To me, the bottom line on defense is to give up as few points as possible per possession. I don't care how you do it or if you use mental power to make your opponents miss FTs.

However, I do believe in regular season is different from the playoffs. The regular season is about odds and probabilities, while the playoffs are about matchups. Sometimes things that work during the regular season can be exploited by your opponents in the playoffs due to matchup and just the extra time available for preparation (which Mark Jackson does not believe in I guess... sorry couldn't help putting in another jab @ him)

Quick question...with all the discussion about whether Barnes should start over Iggy, do you have numbers showing our defensive impact with Iggy on and off vs. Barnes on and off?

[Sleepy51]

We are the #3 defense team (99.9 points per 100 possessions) over the regular season, so something was done right. Klay plays 35 minutes per game. Of the 13 minutes he doesn't play, we give up ~2 points more per 100 possessions. Giving up 2 points more will make us the #7 defensive team. So either we have a good system that still works when Klay is off the court, or what Klay does well in defense (on-ball defense) is just not as important as his fans think.

Klay's definitely a plus on defense, but is it as great as what his fans think?

To me, the bottom line on defense is to give up as few points as possible per possession. I don't care how you do it or if you use mental power to make your opponents miss FTs.

However, I do believe in regular season is different from the playoffs. The regular season is about odds and probabilities, while the playoffs are about matchups. Sometimes things that work during the regular season can be exploited by your opponents in the playoffs due to matchup and just the extra time available for preparation (which Mark Jackson does not believe in I guess... sorry couldn't help putting in another jab @ him)

Quick question...with all the discussion about whether Barnes should start over Iggy, do you have numbers showing our defensive impact with Iggy on and off vs. Barnes on and off?

This is only for units that include Curry, Klay & Bogut to eliminate the noise of playing with the crappy bench.


Iggy
On - 977 minutes
Warriors: 1.153 points per possession on 58.2% TS%
Opponent: 1.000 ppp on 51.1% TS%

Off - 424 minutes
Warriors: 1.021 ppp 53.6% on TS%
Opponent: 1.037 ppp on 51.5% TS%

Barnes
On - 424 minutes
Warriors: 1.033 points per possession on 51.2% TS%
Opponent: 1.041 ppp on 52.3% TS%

Off - 977 minutes
Warriors: 1.147 ppp 58.3% on TS%
Opponent: 0.998 ppp on 50.8% TS%

These are not adjusted numbers so the quality of opponents has to be accounted for, but overall there are important insights here about last season. Our best players played better basketball on both ends of the floor WITH Iggy on the floor with them. The defensive impact was not as great as legend would have us believe. This may lend credibility to the take that Iggy's all defense nomination was more reputation than impact. But we were still marginally better on D with him on than with him off.

In particular, there was actually a HUGE offensive difference with Iggy on the floor with these guys. For those who hate numbers, the narrative that corresponds tot he stats is that Iggy gave our offense patience. When the initial Mark Jackson one-trick-pony high screen offense didn't immediately produce a shot, the ball went through Iggy as the bail out ballhandler to either help us reset, or to get the defense out of position to find another option. He was incredibly important in keeping possessions alive and UNDER CONTROL to find 2nd and 3rd options late in the shot clock. You take Iggy off the court and you might as well cut our shot clock to 10 seconds.

That and Iggy on the floor often meant no Barnes.

Barnes made our best 3 players into a losing lineup when he was on the floor. Opponents scored more points per possession than us on better TS%. Our defense was also WAY better with Barnes off the floor. The degree to which Barnes blows rotations, loses shooters and in general mucks up our defensive scheme has been underplayed because he catches so much heat for not putting up better numbers on offense. He's been significantly bad on both ends.

As far as the quality of opponent considerations, Iggy as a starter spent more time playing against opponents better players than Barnes as a sub. If it were possible to get adjusted numbers out of NBAWOWY for these categories, the adjustements would further indict Barnes deleterious impact on our best players.

This is all last year. It does not say with certainty that both players will impact the team the same way this year, but it is a better predictor than taking guesses at hypothetical declines or hypothetical potential. Based on who the players have been in reality, it has not even been close.

[a8bil]

We are the #3 defense team (99.9 points per 100 possessions) over the regular season, so something was done right. Klay plays 35 minutes per game. Of the 13 minutes he doesn't play, we give up ~2 points more per 100 possessions. Giving up 2 points more will make us the #7 defensive team. So either we have a good system that still works when Klay is off the court, or what Klay does well in defense (on-ball defense) is just not as important as his fans think.

Klay's definitely a plus on defense, but is it as great as what his fans think?

To me, the bottom line on defense is to give up as few points as possible per possession. I don't care how you do it or if you use mental power to make your opponents miss FTs.

However, I do believe in regular season is different from the playoffs. The regular season is about odds and probabilities, while the playoffs are about matchups. Sometimes things that work during the regular season can be exploited by your opponents in the playoffs due to matchup and just the extra time available for preparation (which Mark Jackson does not believe in I guess... sorry couldn't help putting in another jab @ him)

Quick question...with all the discussion about whether Barnes should start over Iggy, do you have numbers showing our defensive impact with Iggy on and off vs. Barnes on and off?

This is only for units that include Curry, Klay & Bogut to eliminate the noise of playing with the crappy bench.


Iggy
On - 977 minutes
Warriors: 1.153 points per possession on 58.2% TS%
Opponent: 1.000 ppp on 51.1% TS%

Off - 424 minutes
Warriors: 1.021 ppp 53.6% on TS%
Opponent: 1.037 ppp on 51.5% TS%

Barnes
On - 424 minutes
Warriors: 1.033 points per possession on 51.2% TS%
Opponent: 1.041 ppp on 52.3% TS%

Off - 977 minutes
Warriors: 1.147 ppp 58.3% on TS%
Opponent: 0.998 ppp on 50.8% TS%

These are not adjusted numbers so the quality of opponents has to be accounted for, but overall there are important insights here about last season. Our best players played better basketball on both ends of the floor WITH Iggy on the floor with them. The defensive impact was not as great as legend would have us believe. This may lend credibility to the take that Iggy's all defense nomination was more reputation than impact. But we were still marginally better on D with him on than with him off.

In particular, there was actually a HUGE offensive difference with Iggy on the floor with these guys. For those who hate numbers, the narrative that corresponds tot he stats is that Iggy gave our offense patience. When the initial Mark Jackson one-trick-pony high screen offense didn't immediately produce a shot, the ball went through Iggy as the bail out ballhandler to either help us reset, or to get the defense out of position to find another option. He was incredibly important in keeping possessions alive and UNDER CONTROL to find 2nd and 3rd options late in the shot clock. You take Iggy off the court and you might as well cut our shot clock to 10 seconds.

That and Iggy on the floor often meant no Barnes.

Barnes made our best 3 players into a losing lineup when he was on the floor. Opponents scored more points per possession than us on better TS%. Our defense was also WAY better with Barnes off the floor. The degree to which Barnes blows rotations, loses shooters and in general mucks up our defensive scheme has been underplayed because he catches so much heat for not putting up better numbers on offense. He's been significantly bad on both ends.

As far as the quality of opponent considerations, Iggy as a starter spent more time playing against opponents better players than Barnes as a sub. If it were possible to get adjusted numbers out of NBAWOWY for these categories, the adjustements would further indict Barnes deleterious impact on our best players.

This is all last year. It does not say with certainty that both players will impact the team the same way this year, but it is a better predictor than taking guesses at hypothetical declines or hypothetical potential. Based on who the players have been in reality, it has not even been close.

Excellent post, Sleepy. Very persuasive.

[Plossum]

Yeah but he only averages 8ppg /green...

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[a8bil]

interesting...played around on nbawowy a bit, and if you go through our regular rotations, 2 things jump out with various on/off scenarios: (1) Iggy seems to have the greatest impact on our starting 5..everyone's offense improves as does the defense. I didn't do all combinations, obviously, but of all the major rotations, removing Iggy seemed to have the biggest impact. Our MVP?

(2) Green is a sizeable step down from either Iggy or Lee. When Green substituted for either, the offense and defenses both slumped to the point we were just avg. Maybe there are flaws in the data, but they don't seem to bear out all of the clamoring for Green to get more minutes.