The Falcon King - The Harrison Barnes Thread

[californiadude]

It's great to see Barnes contributing again, and the Barnes Haterz are strangely quiet I don't want to get ahead of ourselves though, whether that's proclaiming Barnes is a core piece or that Iggy has lost it. The season is long. Everyone will have hot and cold spells, and to be successful we will need EVERYONE to contribute this season. Barnes AND Iggy included.

This hits the nail on the head.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

It's great to see Barnes contributing again, and the Barnes Haterz are strangely quiet I don't want to get ahead of ourselves though, whether that's proclaiming Barnes is a core piece or that Iggy has lost it. The season is long. Everyone will have hot and cold spells, and to be successful we will need EVERYONE to contribute this season. Barnes AND Iggy included.

This hits the nail on the head.

I have to admit. I had been saying Barnes was relatively average with some promise. But now that the season is underway, he really looks pretty average with some promise!

[Onus]

Curry
Thompson
Green
Durant
Bogut

#future

This please

[CCComboBreaker]

If a 22 year old that can give you 20-10 on any given night is "average", I wonder what that says for the 30 year old players that struggle to hit 5.

[The-Power]

If a 22 year old that can give you 20-10 on any given night is "average", I wonder what that says for the 30 year old players that struggle to hit 5.

So far he has done it three times in his career. That means 'on any given night' nowadays? I'm glad Barnes shows some flashes of being a solid contributor to this team. However, the fact that you're way over the top again was to be expected. I fear the day Barnes finally has a stat line like Green last night - this forum is going to suffer a lot at that time.

[FNQ]

It's great to see Barnes contributing again, and the Barnes Haterz are strangely quiet I don't want to get ahead of ourselves though, whether that's proclaiming Barnes is a core piece or that Iggy has lost it. The season is long. Everyone will have hot and cold spells, and to be successful we will need EVERYONE to contribute this season. Barnes AND Iggy included.

This hits the nail on the head.

I have to admit. I had been saying Barnes was relatively average with some promise. But now that the season is underway, he really looks pretty average with some promise!

Lol

The bar's been set pretty low as well. Good to see him doing well in spurts, but not only does he need to sustain it, the rest of the starters need to step up the ball movement. Otherwise Iguodala will continue to close out games. I'm all for Barnes getting that role, but theres still a lot that needs to happen

[RoyalMajesty]

I really love the chemistry between Andrew Bogut and Harrison Barnes. You can tell he's comfortable playing with Andrew Bogut. One of the biggest reasons why he was so successful during the playoffs back in 2013 against the Nuggets and Spurs was having a big Aussie back there to help him on the defense and offense. I'm hoping more and more of those high post plays where it's in Bogut's hands, Barnes goes around Bogut and Barnes' man is caught in Bogut's spider web screen, and then Barnes slash to the basket with his man chasing behind him for a easy bucket thanks to Bogut's passing. Also, those pick-and-roll plays where either Stephen Curry or Klay Thompson is at the three point line being well defended so they passed it to Bogut at the elbow, Bogut dribbles a little bit to get closer to Barnes and Barnes runs over to get closer to come to Bogut, Bogut dish it off to Barnes, Bogut sets a big screen, Barnes' man and Bogut's man is caught up in Bogut's spider web screen, and either Barnes hit the midrange jumper or Bogut roll to the basket with his man and Barnes' man still stuck out on the perimeter for a easy bucket thanks to a pass from Barnes

[Money23Green]

He's got one of the highest TS% on the team right now and has one of the highest ft/fg ratios.

His Win Share per 48 is 3rd only to Klay and Curry.. Oh and he's also youngest player on GSW by 2 years.

If Golden State don't believe in him then I'm sure another team would gladly trade for him.

What would you want in return?

John Henson
Lol @ Evan Zamir.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

If a 22 year old that can give you 20-10 on any given night is "average", I wonder what that says for the 30 year old players that struggle to hit 5.

So far he has done it three times in his career. That means 'on any given night' nowadays? I'm glad Barnes shows some flashes of being a solid contributor to this team. However, the fact that you're way over the top again was to be expected. I fear the day Barnes finally has a stat line like Green last night - this forum is going to suffer a lot at that time.

Exactly. I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. It doesn't mean 'when the stars align and everything goes perfectly'. Tony Delk scored 50 in a game. That didn't make him the next Michael Jordan.

I don't think Barnes is bad. But he's done nothing to demonstrate (yet) that he's more than a capable backup. Which is why I object to both 'Barnes is bad at basketball' and 'the key to the Warriors success it to play Barnes 49 minutes a game'. I also like that he's young enough and (rarely) shows these bursts that I can hope he'll still turn out to be more than a capable backup.

[CCComboBreaker]

If a 22 year old that can give you 20-10 on any given night is "average", I wonder what that says for the 30 year old players that struggle to hit 5.

So far he has done it three times in his career. That means 'on any given night' nowadays? I'm glad Barnes shows some flashes of being a solid contributor to this team. However, the fact that you're way over the top again was to be expected. I fear the day Barnes finally has a stat line like Green last night - this forum is going to suffer a lot at that time.

You won't have to go far. Barnes had a better stat line than Green one game prior to that. And while we're at it, let's not argue consistent numbers if Green is apart of the discussion. Barnes is by far the most consistent player of all the forwards aside from Lee.

And the key question that never gets answered, if Barnes is the back-up, how is it so that he's outplaying the guys who's supposed to be in front of him? No matter the line-up, whether doing it from the bench or the starting spot, Barnes is outplaying all the other 3's. I just can't fathom with any evidence how anyone can conclude he is inferior to.....

....

...?

[The-Power]

You won't have to go far. Barnes had a better stat line than Green one game prior to that.

The reference was Green's last stat line, not some random game when Barnes happened to have a better stat line than him. It was more of a tragicomic throw-in, though.

And while we're at it, let's not argue consistent numbers if Green is apart of the discussion. Barnes is by far the most consistent player of all the forwards aside from Lee.

Wait, I thought Iguodala is consistently bad? Now I'm confused. Since you mentioned Barnes as our most consistent forward I guess we're just talking about consistency in general and put the quality aside, right?

And the key question that never gets answered, if Barnes is the back-up, how is it so that he's outplaying the guys who's supposed to be in front of him?

Maybe because sometimes it's just in your fantasy? He played better than Iggy and obviously better than Rush - his competitors at the moment - this season. It doesn't make him the superior player automatically, but I'll give you that. It certainly doesn't make him the third most important or best player, though. Fortunately for you Green plays at the four up to this point and can't be considered a SF for the moment, for the benefit of your statement.

I actually like Barnes and want him to reach his ceiling for the sake of the team's success alone. But damn, as it was already mentioned once, some guys give me a hard time to celebrate Barnes' solid performances this season at times.

[FNQ]

Played better individually does not = played better for the team.

That should be crystal clear by now.. closing unit, for both the end of game and the end of half, were really good with Iguodala - his most run with the starters. He struggles with the bench, especially with Livingston. This is on Kerr more than anything, but its early and he's tinkered a lot already. We'll see what happens. Lee's injury also throws a curveball into the mix.

If Barnes has truly progressed to be better, he'll earn the closer role, and likely, will become the 30 mpg backup that Iggy is. Because our 2nd unit could sure use the scoring, the overabundance of passing and defense has not translated into the + this year.

[CCComboBreaker]

Wait, I thought Iguodala is consistently bad? Now I'm confused. Since you mentioned Barnes as our most consistent forward I guess we're just talking about consistency in general and put the quality aside, right?

I apologize, I assumed that being consistently effective would be obviously construed as quality. If you don't mind, I would like you to elaborate on what you personally deem to be "quality" for this particular conversation.

Maybe because sometimes it's just in your fantasy?

Minus PER, Plus/Minus (although I'm aware this may no longer count considering they no longer favor certain players), and averages, yes, it's just in my fantasies that Barnes is outplaying his "superiors".

He played better than Iggy and obviously better than Rush - his competitors at the moment - this season.

Yep.

It doesn't make him the superior player automatically, but I'll give you that.

Barnes has been outplaying his competition since the beginning of last season, it just so happens this season that the range of categories in which Barnes dominates has increased (Damn those pesky line-ups!).

it certainly doesn't make him the third most important or best player, though.

All the players are important and have a role to play. It just so happens that Barnes is Top 5, and as we both know, there are 5 starters to a team.

Fortunately for you Green plays at the four up to this point and can't be considered a SF for the moment, for the benefit of your statement.

Minus the hype, Barnes' resume is better than Green at this point. Green has too many turnovers and brain glitches game to game for my liking. It puts in perspective anything he does well, and sometimes negates them. He's also inconsistent, which is normal considering he can't create his own offense. Overall he is a decent player that deserves credit for the things he does well, but he's certainly no 'diamond in the rough' that fans make him out to be.

I actually like Barnes and want him to reach his ceiling for the sake of the team's success alone. But damn, as it was already mentioned once, some guys give me a hard time to celebrate Barnes' solid performances this season at times.

Celebrate with us brother.

Played better individually does not = played better for the team.

That should be crystal clear by now.. closing unit, for both the end of game and the end of half, were really good with Iguodala - his most run with the starters. He struggles with the bench, especially with Livingston. This is on Kerr more than anything, but its early and he's tinkered a lot already. We'll see what happens. Lee's injury also throws a curveball into the mix.

If Barnes has truly progressed to be better, he'll earn the closer role, and likely, will become the 30 mpg backup that Iggy is. Because our 2nd unit could sure use the scoring, the overabundance of passing and defense has not translated into the + this year.

If we are dishing out accolades simply for the sake of the title, than Barnes deserves full credit for being in the starting 5. If the argument is quality and consistency (which I thought it was) that opens up a different bag of bones.

For all this talk about the "closing unit", Iggy hasn't done very much given that role. Championing Iggy just for the sake of being the guy on the court at a certain time or because of his MPG does the entire conversation a disservice. No matter the line-up or the minutes given Iggy has been lackluster so far, and inferior to a lot of the other players on the team-- the same players he's supposed to be a better player than.

[FNQ]

'Celebrate with us brother' is what is said before a smiling man in an a white cape hands you a foam cup of kool-aid.

I can only imagine the +/- gap of Barnes with the starters and Iguodala with the starters has widened after last night. The 10 year coincidence continues..

[The-Power]

Fortunately for you Green plays at the four up to this point and can't be considered a SF for the moment, for the benefit of your statement.

Minus the hype, Barnes' resume is better than Green at this point. Green has too many turnovers and brain glitches game to game for my liking. It puts in perspective anything he does well, and sometimes negates them. He's also inconsistent, which is normal considering he can't create his own offense. Overall he is a decent player that deserves credit for the things he does well, but he's certainly no 'diamond in the rough' that fans make him out to be.

Green is prone to some dumb plays, yes. But they don't outweigh his great plays and positive influence on the court.

That said, of course he commits more turnovers. He's more involved in the offensive system because he's better than Barnes with the ball in his hands, especially when it comes to passing. Dray averages 63 touches a game in 33 minutes compared to Barnes' 37.5 touches a game in 30 minutes. He passes the ball 46 times a game, Barnes 22.5 times a game. While I agree that he has - like Curry - to cut down some unnecessary turnovers, his turnovers will always be higher due to his role. In fact Barnes turnovers per pass rate is higher than Green's, even though it's marginal.

Green grabs more rebounds (7.9 per 36) than Barnes (6.3 per 36). 46% of his rebounds are contested compared to Barnes' 23%. Dray's percentage of rebounds per chance is also superior compared to Barnes' (62.5% vs 54.5%, although I'd like to have some more detailed data for this category). You can argue that some differences are a result of the different roles, but you certainly can't make an argument for Barnes being the more valuable rebounder.

Green is also the more versatile and especially smarter defender, although I'm pleasantly surprised with Barnes' being more focused and therefore improving on that end. Barnes has the edge in terms shooting efficiency over Dray, albeit both of them are well above average (65 TS%, 60 eFG% versus 59 TS%, 55.5 eFG%). I would argue that this has also something to do with the shot attempts per game (10.5 to 7) - I don't think Barnes would be as efficient as he happens to be right now if he had to shoot the ball at 150% of his current production, simple reasoning. But honor to whom honor is due: Barnes is extremely efficient at the moment, which is really valuable if he can sustain his production to a certain degree.

I don't see the argument for Barnes over Green overall at the moment. And because you mentioned consistency: Green's standard deviation in terms of scoring is a little higher compared to Barnes' (5.25 to 4.375), in rebounding Green has the edge over Barnes if you want to determine consistency in that way. However, in terms of scoring the difference doesn't really surprise since Green scores more and therefore the standard deviation is more likely to be higher ceteris paribus. So we can put it in a nutshell and state: Green had three games with less than 35% shooting, Barnes had two. On the other hand Barnes had one low-scoring game (<5pt) more than Green (2 to 1). Both of them provided decent defense most of the time. I think this whole consistency-thing is more or less balanced heretofore - the overall production is in favor of Green. Or what's your actual method to determine consistency? I hope it's not just an assertion based on a subjective perception?

So I'm happy with how the season started for Barnes, but I'd still appreciate a more realistic approach to the topic. I guess, however, my hopes won't come true in your case.

[Money23Green]

Its funny how 90% of you guys were willing to trade Barnes for nothing or late 2nd rounder just weeks ago.

He's 22.

[FNQ]

Where was that said?

[Money23Green]

Where was that said?

Everywhere.

Especially last season.

[FNQ]

Ah right, so you mean nowhere?

Just wanted to see if hyperbole was in literally every post. Carry on, and good luck with this new handle

[Money23Green]

*next to nothing