What should we do with Barnes?

[FNQ]

Once Lee's bought out, in theory, the amount at which he's bought out for counts against us in the cap, and nothing changes that, short of some team claiming his salary on waivers.

There's only 2 ways to get rid of Lee next year: trade him for a longer bad contract with a smaller hit next year (think Frye from ORL), or use minor assets to try and convince a team to take him. Barnes, our 2 1sts, and maybe McAdoo fit into that category. Nedo would as well, if we still had him.

It's not going to take only one of our 1sts to move Lee, btw. Odds are we're paying the tax, heavily, next year. So stands to reason that instead of wasting assets to make players disappear, we consolidate assets. Let's see what 2 1sts, Barnes, and Lee nets us as far as finished players go. I would imagine the Nets would be willing to part with Brook Lopez for that, who would provide an offensive big off the bench, and Bogut insurance. Expensive Bogut insurance, but way better than what Lee would provide. Other options could be Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe (S&T), Nikola Pekovic (if healthy), Omer Asik..

[Twinkie defense]

Also....watching last night, its just so clear that David Lee's role has evaporated. the rest of the team just seems to fit seamlessly. Lee just isn't his former self, and although he gave some good efforts, its just not happening. So based on that, and also the 15 million that could be used elsewhere, I really believe that this is the offseason where things finally happen in regards to dealing him. If the Knicks miss out on Monroe and other free agents, then that to me is the most likely scenario.

More than ever though I think an asset needs to be tied to Lee to move him, in a pure salary dump. I don't want to lose assets, I want to use them. If the Warriors can't at least break even in a player swap I would prefer we just keep him as a little-used, $15 mil reserve next season. I'm sure Lee would rather go somewhere he can play, but throwing away another first round pick?

I with you on this Twinkie. I feel the same way (we've lived with the guy for the past 5 years, I think I could probably stand one more if he couldn't be moved for something that were at least "reasonable"). One thing though we might want to consider should it turn out that way is possiblr buyout next season (not sure what the league rules would allow) but considering he might not want to stick around if he knew he wasn't going to get much run and would prefer to go somewhere else where he'd probably get more significant time, perhaps negotiate some kind of a buyout with him.

If we could cut his next year salary say in half (and I don't know if the league or the players association would allow it) that would work out for both of us. And I could see a team that wanted him to be willing to make up the difference possibly (say $8M a year for arguments sake) and perhaps even extend it to another 3 years (3 years @$24M seems about right for him at this point in his career).

And everybody's happy? Don't know if this is realistic but just a thought. Not sure if under this scenerio this might keep us out of luxury tax (it might) but it would certainly help (and them maybe some can stop worrying about Barnes pay potentially going up two years from now).

Actually a buyout is not a bad idea. Buyout means the Warriors just lose money, but don't have to attach an asset. It wouldn't affect the team's cap or tax situation (buyouts are almost always 99 cents on the dollar). It would create a roster space. Say to Lee, we appreciate everything you have done but it looks like you're not going to get a lot of playing time. We'll leave it to you - do you want to stick around in a supporting role again next season? Or do you want us to buy you out so you can find a team where you can play? Win/win. Classy thing for the organization to do. And Lee has probably earned it.

[Twinkie defense]

If we could cut his next year salary say in half (and I don't know if the league or the players association would allow it) that would work out for both of us. And I could see a team that wanted him to be willing to make up the difference possibly (say $8M a year for arguments sake) and perhaps even extend it to another 3 years (3 years @$24M seems about right for him at this point in his career).

Why would we pay 8 mil a year for a guy who rides the bench except in garbage time? I think the Lee tenure is done in GS.

What alternative do you suggest then? Lee's salary is guaranteed next season. I think the options are:

-Let Lee play out his contract in GS
-Buy him out, paying him $15 mil to play elsewhere
-Attach assets to him - say, our 2015 1st round pick or Harrison Barnes - and trade him to a team well under the cap or one who has a giant trade exception
-trade him for a different role player with an equally big contract - say someone like Andrea Bargnani, if he made a little more than $11.5 mil and had one more year on his contract

When you consider the options it doesn't make bad sense to keep him around.

[and1GS]

The list of possible options really isn't that long.

First, eliminate any FA's. GS can only offer mini-MLE deals, way less than anyone established and decent is taking. S&T deals are out (unless you want Draymond leaving because the team is hard-capped). This eliminates Carroll, Afflalo, Jeff Green (who's worse than Barnes anyway), Crowder and others. GS is quite restricted in their possible moves this summer which is why creating a major rotation hole is a problem. In a summer where the team has more roster flexibility this would be less of an issue.

I'd also want decent size, swapping in a SG like Ross is also a problem (Ross also is a downgrade from Barnes in general).

IMO the list of Barnes replacements who wouldn't be a downgrade, but probably have trade value below Barnes (so GS could get something else in a deal) is roughly as follows:

Aminu -> if GS is willing to swap to a non-shooter with much better defense/rebounding
Roberson -> Another defense for shooting trade-off
Dudley -> only if he opts in to the last year of his deal
Covington -> though I don't know how Philly feels about him.
Thabo -> maybe, if his ankle isn't too badly busted
Gallo -> massive health risk, and if Denver trusts his health, probably valued over Barnes.
Ariza -> Lee would have to be included somehow
Otto Porter -> One younger target, like Barnes looks much better playing with starters then off the bench where he's expected to do more. Barnes+GS1st for Porter+Wash1st?
PJ Tucker -> one of the most plausible options
Wilson Chandler -> had a bad year this season, but should recover to Barnes level

Maybe add a couple of old guys, but I don't trust them to maintain health/performance levels.

There are options, but there aren't that many and one really has to be acquired as part of a Barnes deal.

I don't agree with some of this post. I wasn't outlining strategy to acquire every guy I mentioned, I literally just came up with a list off the top of my head that includes guys who more or less do what Barnes does - shoot 3s at a high percentage, are pretty tall and play average defense.

There's always a way to get a player, haven't you guys learned this from the Iguodala deal? If we really want, say, Arron Afflalo, we can figure something out. My point was that Barnes skillset --right now-- is common in the NBA. He has sik dunkz, but that doesn't make him irreplaceable. THAT was my point.

Also Terrence Ross is an SF...he's probably the most analogous player to Haarrison in the NBA right now too (good 3pt shooter, crazy hopzZz, decent size). How exactly is he a downgrade from Barnes?



Anyways, what it comes down to is how important is Barnes skillset to us and how common is that skillset in the NBA? The former I'd say is quite important while the latter is common IMO. He's a tweener that takes/makes wide open 3s and can play some iso ball. We're not dealing with Doug Christie or Kyle Korver here so I'm not sure why people feel it's impossible to fathom life without him.

Barneshas the 18th highest 3p% in the league overall and the 7th highest non guard and 5th highest SF (the 5 being Luke Babbitt, Hedo Turkoglu, Richard Jefferson, Kris Middleton and Damjan Rudex) non of which I would trade him for (I know some of you guys would trade him for Middleton but he's the only on that group that might be in the equation). T. Ross is #55 on that list(@37.2% compared to Harrison 40.4% even though he's been in a slump lately). You consider that a ood 3 pt shooter? Then what do you consider Barnes?

As far as fg% Harrison is at a very respectable #32 (and that's overall), he's 4th @ SF (behind just Antetokounmpo, James and Carroll, ahead of Kahwi). As for Ross, he's at #19, even behind Draymond. Ross is considered pretty much a bust by most Toronto fans, so no, I'd say another miss there, but keep trying.

So you don't think playing on the Warriors helps Barnes' 3pt% at all? Like it doesn't give him more open opportunities or anything?

[turk3d]

I don't agree with some of this post. I wasn't outlining strategy to acquire every guy I mentioned, I literally just came up with a list off the top of my head that includes guys who more or less do what Barnes does - shoot 3s at a high percentage, are pretty tall and play average defense.

There's always a way to get a player, haven't you guys learned this from the Iguodala deal? If we really want, say, Arron Afflalo, we can figure something out. My point was that Barnes skillset --right now-- is common in the NBA. He has sik dunkz, but that doesn't make him irreplaceable. THAT was my point.

Also Terrence Ross is an SF...he's probably the most analogous player to Haarrison in the NBA right now too (good 3pt shooter, crazy hopzZz, decent size). How exactly is he a downgrade from Barnes?



Anyways, what it comes down to is how important is Barnes skillset to us and how common is that skillset in the NBA? The former I'd say is quite important while the latter is common IMO. He's a tweener that takes/makes wide open 3s and can play some iso ball. We're not dealing with Doug Christie or Kyle Korver here so I'm not sure why people feel it's impossible to fathom life without him.

Barneshas the 18th highest 3p% in the league overall and the 7th highest non guard and 5th highest SF (the 5 being Luke Babbitt, Hedo Turkoglu, Richard Jefferson, Kris Middleton and Damjan Rudex) non of which I would trade him for (I know some of you guys would trade him for Middleton but he's the only on that group that might be in the equation). T. Ross is #55 on that list(@37.2% compared to Harrison 40.4% even though he's been in a slump lately). You consider that a ood 3 pt shooter? Then what do you consider Barnes?

As far as fg% Harrison is at a very respectable #32 (and that's overall), he's 4th @ SF (behind just Antetokounmpo, James and Carroll, ahead of Kahwi). As for Ross, he's at #19, even behind Draymond. Ross is considered pretty much a bust by most Toronto fans, so no, I'd say another miss there, but keep trying.

So you don't think playing on the Warriors helps Barnes' 3pt% at all? Like it doesn't give him more open opportunities or anything?

What about Carroll, on the 2nd best team? And what about Kawi on the Spurs? You can go down the board on that and come to the same kinds of conclusions but the fact of the matter is that you really don't just know. However, right now, Barnes is a known entity on this team with the players we have, having playing with most of them for 3 years now and them playing with him.

If you don't think that counts and all these so-called players than can so "easily" replace him seamlessly (just see how Love has done his first season in Cleveland as an example), then I don't know what else to tell you. Let's trade the known for the unknown, ok.

[turk3d]

Once Lee's bought out, in theory, the amount at which he's bought out for counts against us in the cap, and nothing changes that, short of some team claiming his salary on waivers.

There's only 2 ways to get rid of Lee next year: trade him for a longer bad contract with a smaller hit next year (think Frye from ORL), or use minor assets to try and convince a team to take him. Barnes, our 2 1sts, and maybe McAdoo fit into that category. Nedo would as well, if we still had him.

It's not going to take only one of our 1sts to move Lee, btw. Odds are we're paying the tax, heavily, next year. So stands to reason that instead of wasting assets to make players disappear, we consolidate assets. Let's see what 2 1sts, Barnes, and Lee nets us as far as finished players go. I would imagine the Nets would be willing to part with Brook Lopez for that, who would provide an offensive big off the bench, and Bogut insurance. Expensive Bogut insurance, but way better than what Lee would provide. Other options could be Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe (S&T), Nikola Pekovic (if healthy), Omer Asik..

I really like the idea of gettting Lopez over here (two sometimes broken Centers who can play plus one Festus) if it were at all possible. Lopez would definitely be a much better fit for us and give us some nice insurance at the position. He'd be back home too which would be nice if the Nets were willing to do it. Lopez actually makes a little more than Lee next year, believe it or not. I'd do that in a heartbeat. I'm with Twinkie on this, I'd rather buy him out next year rather than give up any assets in order to move him. Too bad he can't take some sort of a cut on next years salary. That would at least give us some relief.

[turk3d]

Barneshas the 18th highest 3p% in the league overall and the 7th highest non guard and 5th highest SF (the 5 being Luke Babbitt, Hedo Turkoglu, Richard Jefferson, Kris Middleton and Damjan Rudex) non of which I would trade him for (I know some of you guys would trade him for Middleton but he's the only on that group that might be in the equation). T. Ross is #55 on that list(@37.2% compared to Harrison 40.4% even though he's been in a slump lately). You consider that a ood 3 pt shooter? Then what do you consider Barnes?

As far as fg% Harrison is at a very respectable #32 (and that's overall), he's 4th @ SF (behind just Antetokounmpo, James and Carroll, ahead of Kahwi). As for Ross, he's at #19, even behind Draymond. Ross is considered pretty much a bust by most Toronto fans, so no, I'd say another miss there, but keep trying.

Barnes has a limited role on offense (i.e. he isn't asked to score consistently, he takes what opponents and his teammates give him) and gets plenty good looks due to playing next to Curry and Klay, with two very good passing-bigs and for a team whose system is built to create good opportunities for offensively average players. Don't get me wrong, Barnes shooting has been nice this season most of the time but you can't simply come up with raw percentages and argue with them, without taking any context into account.

Well I think the context here (which is the context that I'm looking at) is that practically all the replacements we've been talking about are in just about every case no better (and possibly worse considering the time it would take for them to get acclimated to their new teammates). Barnes (when you really give it some thought) might be perfect for a #5 man on this team as he does just about all the things we need out of that position.

This team really doesn't really need any heavy duty scoring out of the #5 position. We have guys on the bench who can provide us with that when needed (Speights, Barbosa and a few others occasion). HB pretty much does exactly what we need from him, rebounds, adequately defends, and can give us scoring at times when it's really needed.

One of the arguments being used against him (he's playing with the Splash bros) is really weak, who are they looking to set up? Bogut typically looks for the SBs, Dray, and others and just occasionally Barnes. I really don't see the need for replacing anyone in the starting lineup, especially if we get that ring, this team as it stands is absolutely golden.

[DLeagueAllStars]

Could just trade barnes for ryno.. add rush from our side

[DLeagueAllStars]

Lee could be moved to team missing out on Monroe or for smaller parts to team that wants to make a splash... kings

[Coxy]

Lee could be moved to team missing out on Monroe or for smaller parts to team that wants to make a splash... kings

This sentence made me go cross eyed.

[cj03]

What alternative do you suggest then? Lee's salary is guaranteed next season. I think the options are:

-Let Lee play out his contract in GS
-Buy him out, paying him $15 mil to play elsewhere
-Attach assets to him - say, our 2015 1st round pick or Harrison Barnes - and trade him to a team well under the cap or one who has a giant trade exception
-trade him for a different role player with an equally big contract - say someone like Andrea Bargnani, if he made a little more than $11.5 mil and had one more year on his contract

When you consider the options it doesn't make bad sense to keep him around.

I'm fine with keeping him for another year. I thought (and and1GS interpreted it the same way) that Turk was saying that he wanted to extend Lee 3 years at 8 mil per year. There's just no way anyone would do that, let alone us. I'd be fine with a buyout if he takes a pay cut, but I doubt he will, so might as well just let his contract expire.

[DLeagueAllStars]

Lee could be moved to team missing out on Monroe or for smaller parts to team that wants to make a splash... kings

This sentence made me go cross eyed.

All im saying is there will be teams who will look at his past 5yrs instead of this season and will want to field a better team and know lee can put numbers with lots of minutes. For one season he is movable

[The-Power]

This team really doesn't really need any heavy duty scoring out of the #5 position. We have guys on the bench who can provide us with that when needed (Speights, Barbosa and a few others occasion). HB pretty much does exactly what we need from him, rebounds, adequately defends, and can give us scoring at times when it's really needed.

One of the arguments being used against him (he's playing with the Splash bros) is really weak, who are they looking to set up? Bogut typically looks for the SBs, Dray, and others and just occasionally Barnes. I really don't see the need for replacing anyone in the starting lineup, especially if we get that ring, this team as it stands is absolutely golden.

I'm not saying Barnes must do more. My point is that you can't compare FG% of players with different roles. Barnes can shoot, but shots must be created for him and many of his 3's are open corner threes. Again, that's actually a good thing because Barnes is used properly and the team efficiency is increased by this style. But many other players in Barnes' situation would do better than they currently do efficiency-wise, that's why raw percentages need to be taken with a grain of salt.

And again, I don't see the need to replace anyone on our starting lineup either. Would I trade him for someone who improves the team? Sure, unless there are serious question marks. But I'm perfectly fine with Barnes being our 5th guy with the starters. It's about his contract situation and possible moves which put us in a more comfortable position going forward. In case that Barnes' contract can be extended to a reasonable - for us and our specific circumstances - price I'm all for it. But since I don't see it yet, I'm all for exploring options as well.

[Coxy]

Lee could be moved to team missing out on Monroe or for smaller parts to team that wants to make a splash... kings

This sentence made me go cross eyed.

All im saying is there will be teams who will look at his past 5yrs instead of this season and will want to field a better team and know lee can put numbers with lots of minutes. For one season he is movable

Yep, I got your point, it was just the way it read.

I doubt there is a team out there that will want Lee TBH. He's not very good at basketball.

[giberish]

TBH...I think barnes can be easily replaced if we look to move him, we'd just have to make it clear that whoever comes in will be occupying that #5 starter role. Potential replacements include: Demare Carroll, Afflalo, Covington (he's been a revelation), T. Ross, Ariza, or Jeff Green - and that's just off the top of my head. Hell even a stopgap like Matt Barnes (yes, I believe it's that easy of a fix) works. We're basically replacing a 3 and jump guy who can guard multiple positions at an average level with a 3 and D guy who can or can't guard multiple positions. Jae Crowder too - an unimpressive yet fits-your-needs player.

It comes down to how much we feel barnes excels at the things he's good at, and how much we expect him to improve. It's clear we aren't dealing with a on-his-own-planet skill developer like Klay was/is, so where do we really expect him to go? I'm fine riding it out with Harrison, but I bet he gets paid at the end of that deal by a **** team looking for a 18 ppg guy.

The list of possible options really isn't that long.

First, eliminate any FA's. GS can only offer mini-MLE deals, way less than anyone established and decent is taking. S&T deals are out (unless you want Draymond leaving because the team is hard-capped). This eliminates Carroll, Afflalo, Jeff Green (who's worse than Barnes anyway), Crowder and others. GS is quite restricted in their possible moves this summer which is why creating a major rotation hole is a problem. In a summer where the team has more roster flexibility this would be less of an issue.

I'd also want decent size, swapping in a SG like Ross is also a problem (Ross also is a downgrade from Barnes in general).

IMO the list of Barnes replacements who wouldn't be a downgrade, but probably have trade value below Barnes (so GS could get something else in a deal) is roughly as follows:

Aminu -> if GS is willing to swap to a non-shooter with much better defense/rebounding
Roberson -> Another defense for shooting trade-off
Dudley -> only if he opts in to the last year of his deal
Covington -> though I don't know how Philly feels about him.
Thabo -> maybe, if his ankle isn't too badly busted
Gallo -> massive health risk, and if Denver trusts his health, probably valued over Barnes.
Ariza -> Lee would have to be included somehow
Otto Porter -> One younger target, like Barnes looks much better playing with starters then off the bench where he's expected to do more. Barnes+GS1st for Porter+Wash1st?
PJ Tucker -> one of the most plausible options
Wilson Chandler -> had a bad year this season, but should recover to Barnes level

Maybe add a couple of old guys, but I don't trust them to maintain health/performance levels.

There are options, but there aren't that many and one really has to be acquired as part of a Barnes deal.

I don't agree with some of this post. I wasn't outlining strategy to acquire every guy I mentioned, I literally just came up with a list off the top of my head that includes guys who more or less do what Barnes does - shoot 3s at a high percentage, are pretty tall and play average defense.

There's always a way to get a player, haven't you guys learned this from the Iguodala deal? If we really want, say, Arron Afflalo, we can figure something out. My point was that Barnes skillset --right now-- is common in the NBA. He has sik dunkz, but that doesn't make him irreplaceable. THAT was my point.

My point - which you're completely ignoring - is that for a team that's well into the luxury tax the current CBA makes it very limiting in adding players. You talk about Afflalo - but to sign him as a FA (which would have to be a S&T to make a competitive offer) , GS would have to move at least 2 of Curry/Thompson/Green/Lee/Iggy/Bogut for no money back in order to have room under the hard cap. That's why any FA's are off the table. There are some trade options, but teams generally want to keep useful rotation players on decent contracts so the market is limited.

It's also why - if there isn't a great offer for Barnes this summer - keeping him makes sense. First because if there isn't a big trade offer for Barnes this summer there probably won't be a huge FA market next summer, but also - even if he gets an unaffordable huge FA offer next summer - GS will have far, far more roster flexibility to replace him.

[giberish]

What alternative do you suggest then? Lee's salary is guaranteed next season. I think the options are:

-Let Lee play out his contract in GS
-Buy him out, paying him $15 mil to play elsewhere
-Attach assets to him - say, our 2015 1st round pick or Harrison Barnes - and trade him to a team well under the cap or one who has a giant trade exception
-trade him for a different role player with an equally big contract - say someone like Andrea Bargnani, if he made a little more than $11.5 mil and had one more year on his contract

When you consider the options it doesn't make bad sense to keep him around.

There are a couple of other options.

Trade him for a cheaper player with extra contract years. Thompson, Landry, Frye, etc. You need a team with some cap room to make a deal, but there's a bunch out there. GS still has a rotation big and saves $5-10M in payroll (which is big given the marginal luxury tax rates GS would be paying).

Trade him for an EC - preferably with a smaller contract but no on-court value - then waive and stretch that player. Lee for Gerald Wallace for instance. Between the salary difference and stretch it's over $11M saved next season - though you could add some back using mini-MLE money for bench depth.

The downside for both is that you add some salary for a year or two past 2016 but it will be proportionately less with the higher cap/tax rates. There's really no way GS is as far over the luxury tax line in 2016-7 or 2017-8 as they will be next year.

[turk3d]

This team really doesn't really need any heavy duty scoring out of the #5 position. We have guys on the bench who can provide us with that when needed (Speights, Barbosa and a few others occasion). HB pretty much does exactly what we need from him, rebounds, adequately defends, and can give us scoring at times when it's really needed.

One of the arguments being used against him (he's playing with the Splash bros) is really weak, who are they looking to set up? Bogut typically looks for the SBs, Dray, and others and just occasionally Barnes. I really don't see the need for replacing anyone in the starting lineup, especially if we get that ring, this team as it stands is absolutely golden.

I'm not saying Barnes must do more. My point is that you can't compare FG% of players with different roles. Barnes can shoot, but shots must be created for him and many of his 3's are open corner threes. Again, that's actually a good thing because Barnes is used properly and the team efficiency is increased by this style. But many other players in Barnes' situation would do better than they currently do efficiency-wise, that's why raw percentages need to be taken with a grain of salt.

And again, I don't see the need to replace anyone on our starting lineup either. Would I trade him for someone who improves the team? Sure, unless there are serious question marks. But I'm perfectly fine with Barnes being our 5th guy with the starters. It's about his contract situation and possible moves which put us in a more comfortable position going forward. In case that Barnes' contract can be extended to a reasonable - for us and our specific circumstances - price I'm all for it. But since I don't see it yet, I'm all for exploring options as well.

All this talk about Barnes and what MIGHT happen concerning his contract, I'm lot more concerned about Lee's next year which is $15M and we're on the hook for. All we're really committed to (contractwise) with Barnes is a paltry ~$4M for just next year (as compared to Lee's $15M). And at least at his age and what he's done so far in addition to his existing contract, he'd be no problem moving if it turned out to be the smart move, unfortunately like with Lee who we're probably stuck with for another year.

[KevinMcreynolds]

Lee has no value. He'll just play out his contract with us.

[FNQ]

So the Pacers are essentially daring Hibbert to opt out, which he won't.. if we dangled Lee and a 1st for him, would they bite to shave one year off the contract? Would we be willing to pay that for a guy who's essentially Bogut insurance?

[Twinkie defense]

I'm shocked that the Pacers would want to move on so fast, but Hibbert is not going to decline his option. I would love to have Hibbert on the roster but wouldn't he be in the same boat as Lee here? Where are the minutes with Bogut and Festus, let alone Mo? Someone else ought to trade for him but Warriors are pretty stacked at center already.