2013 Off Season Thread - Jones Returns Page 92

[BigDee]

No to Turner and kick the tires on Canty.

[Newz]

I see where Minter would play... in Hawk's spot. But where does Ogletree fit in our defense? He seems incredibly talented, but doesn't he weigh like 235 or something? Where does he fit in a 3-4?

Opposite Hawk. He's got potential to be amazing as a WILB.

So then what happens to Bishop? When healthy he is one of our best players. Can he slide over into Hawk's spot?

[Jollay]

I really wanted us to go after Canty hard last time but now I have lukewarm interest. Worth exploring however.

He would still be a decent upgrade.

[Bucksfans1and2]

I see where Minter would play... in Hawk's spot. But where does Ogletree fit in our defense? He seems incredibly talented, but doesn't he weigh like 235 or something? Where does he fit in a 3-4?

Opposite Hawk. He's got potential to be amazing as a WILB.

So then what happens to Bishop? When healthy he is one of our best players. Can he slide over into Hawk's spot?

No, Bishop would be pretty awful at Hawk's spot.

He's not big enough first of all. Bishop plays at 235, Hawk played around 255 this year. Bishop also doesn't play with the right mindset. Similar to how you can't teach nasty to offensive lineman, you can't teach SILB instincts. The entire purpose of our run defense is to keep Bishop free so that he can fly around and make things happen. Putting him at Hawk's spot would be a disaster.

Bishop's a pretty good WILB, he's just born with the "Attack" mindset that people love. That mindset is great at the WILB spot, but SILB has you playing under control and taking on blockers at the LOS. The SILB takes on the pulling guard, or the fullback, or the free O-Lineman to make the running back cut it back, and right as he cuts back he should be getting clobbered by the WILB coming down.





Hope these help demonstrate Hawk's role better than words can. God knows I've tried explaining it and y'all still want his head on a pike.

Ironically Hawk doesn't actually have good SILB instincts. He's just cerebral enough and is a good enough athlete that that he can fake it and do an alright job. If Hawk actually had instincts worth a damn he'd be the best LB in the league. Sadly you can't teach it. That's why guys like Bishop or Bowman in Frisco who are underwhelming athletically can be really good players and freak athletes like Hawk who can't see it are just average.

People forget that Hawk was drafted as a 4-3 Will Backer. It says a lot about Hawk's ability's as a true football player that he can play the two LB positions that are most different from each other. That's also the reason he got overpaid, it wasn't just 34 teams bidding on him, it was the whole damn league.

Also, (sorry for rambling incoherently) Hawk had a pretty good year this year. Compare his numbers to Patrick Willis and they're not nearly as lopsided as you'd think. Add the quality of D-Line in front of them and Hawk comes out smelling like fricking roses.

Hawk was at 120 total tackles, 81 solo, 39 assisted. 9 TFL 3 sacks 6 stuffs
Willis was at 120 total tackles, 88 solo, 32 assisted. 7 TFL .5 sack 5 stuffs

In fairness, Willis added 2 FFs, 2 INTs, and 9 PDs to his stat line, where as Hawk is goose egg in all three categories.

Also, (I think I'm done after this one) you have to remember that he plays in Capers defense. That means a lot of things but mostly for an ILB it means that you're seeing only two DLineman in front of you, way more than anybody else in the league. Yeah, Pickett's one of the best in the league at that job, but he's still only one guy. As the ILB in that scheme you are NOT put in a position to succeed.

I'm not saying Hawk is a great player, I'm not even saying he's a good player. I'm just saying that there are a lot of things working against him and that football is a complex game. You have to take everything into account before you make a judgement on the guy.

[LittleRooster]

Great post BF

[eagle13]

I am begining to see the light. There has to be some dam reason TT paid him so much. However wonder why Hawk was stripped of Def signal caller? - coaches gave it to Bishop then smith then Jones. And still the fact hawk rarely makes head on stops but gets dragged hanging on hip of runner.

BF what grade would you give Hawk in relation to others that play his position SILB?

IF the OL-DL-S-CB at 26 were not value & Minter was there at 26 would you take him to replace Hawk or do prefer Hawk and draft a value OLB, RB, TE or WR? (suppose Perry's health is 100% & TT chooss to keep finley)

[Henchman24]

Ian Rapoport reporting (via Twitter) that the Packers are considering tagging Jennings...

Interesting to hear the #Packers are still considering franchising Greg Jennings. Thought that ship had sailed. Apparently not.

[Bucksfans1and2]

I am begining to see the light. There has to be some dam reason TT paid him so much. However wonder why Hawk was stripped of Def signal caller? - coaches gave it to Bishop then smith then Jones. And still the fact hawk rarely makes head on stops but gets dragged hanging on hip of runner.

BF what grade would you give Hawk in relation to others that play his position SILB?

IF the OL-DL-S-CB at 26 were not value & Minter was there at 26 would you take him to replace Hawk or do prefer Hawk and draft a value OLB, RB, TE or WR? (suppose Perry's health is 100% & TT chooss to keep finley)

I wish Hawk was a bigger hitter. I really do. Sadly part of the lacking instincts is that Hawk generally knows where to go, but he doesn't have the Ray Lewis, superhuman sixth sense that lets him know where the ballcarrier is and where he's going at all times. Because he's just not that guy, a lot of the time Hawk ends up just slightly out of position and throws an arm out, because that's all he can get. It looks ****, because NFL caliber backs will drag you if you don't get a hat on them and you don't have help coming. It's just one of those deals that that's a limitation of Hawk's game.

Never doubt that Hawk's a hitter. Not once in his football career has Hawk shied away from a block or a tackle. He'll lay the wood if he can, but he's not gonna gamble. He's not gonna risk a missed tackle going for the knockout shot. Because he so often doesn't find himself with his feet set and his body positioned he ends up going for the fundamentally sound, if boring, tackle. Part of what made Ray Lewis such a fierce tackler is that the guy always had his lower body in position to deliver that shot. Hawk just doesn't have the instincts that Lewis did to get himself in the proper position.

Burnett was actually the guy who ended up with the headset for us in most games. I didn't realize, he played EVERY defensive snap for us. My guess for why the headset got taken away from Hawk is that Hawk isn't in on the 3-Safety, 1-LB sub-packages, and you always need that headset on the field, especially when you're getting crazy. Part of being the WILB is that you're trusted to be better in coverage. Not sure if that's actually the case for Smith vs. Hawk, but the staff seemed to feel that way. I can see why they would prefer Jones over Hawk in that look though.

As for the overall grade, it's hard to say. . .

David Harris for the Jets is better.
The 49er guys play it both ways, but both are better than Hawk.
Fletcher is better for the Redskins. Hawk's better than Perry Riley though
Cushing is better
The Chiefs play it both ways. Hawk's better than Greenwood but not as good as Johnson
Steelers play it both ways. Hawk's better than Spence but not as good as Timmons

Hawk is better than however the Cardinals are starting at that spot.
I'd take Hawk over whichever of Carter/Connor is starting for the Cowboys.
Hawk is better than the Colts guys
Hawk is probably better than Takeo Spikes

Essentially Hawk is the definition of average. He's a C+/B- guy.

The thing about Hawk is that he's almost never the cause of a big run. You can even see in the Vikings games. We filled gaps. We matched them man for man in the hole, and a big part of that was Hawk taking on Felton, who very much earned his trip to Honolulu. What we didn't do, was get Peterson on the ground once we killed the initial surge, and that's the responsibility of Brad Jones and the OLBs moreso than Hawk. Hawk is an extremely "safe" player.

You pay for that though, with the lack of impact plays. Hawk doesn't gamble, so he doesn't win. You don't get the FFs or the stuffs at a high rate. Ray Lewis built his hall of fame platform on shooting the "wrong" gap and taking down the ballcarrier before he reached the hole. He would slip a block in the hole and get the RB. And that's great, but you never see the plays where he didn't get the RB or by trying to slip the block he gave up a big gain, where the guy got yards when Ray didn't follow the assignment. Ray's great because he won a vast majority of the time when he gambled, but there were times when he lost too. Hawk doesn't lose because he gambled. There's something to be said for "safe" at that spot in this look with the talent on this defense.

I can't answer the "Would you take Minter?" question without seeing a board. He's in a whole bunch of guys that I would have to hold my nose to select at 26.

The guys that are somewhat realistic that I'd be excited about at 26 right now:

Cyprien, Rambo (I'm not saying it's a good pick, just one I'd like), Rhodes, and I'll know about the OLBs in 72 hours.

Just going off of Walt's Mock

Jones has a busted back
I don't want to take an interior lineman without elite drive skills like Cooper
Ask me about Mingo after they go through the drills
Fluker can't pass protect
Te'o can't shed a block (And it wasn't just Alabama)
Ogletree is soft and stupid
Hankins has a bad motor
I don't want a CB without elite man-skills like Banks (Though I may like him at Safety)
Sylvester Williams is overrated
I don't see the value in Allen when I can get a receiver who's similarly talented in the third round who will be just as capable of not seeing the field.
I'm not sure if Minter projects to be that much better than Hawk
I don't think Lacy, or any back in this class, is a true difference maker in the pros.
Kawann Short is Worthy's fatter brother.
Ask me about Okafor after the DEs go through drills
Jenkins gets blasted off the ball way too much for an elite lineman and doesn't get sacks.

[MickeyDavis]

I'd be very very surprised if we tagged Jennings unless TT has a trade worked out like he did with Corey Williams a few years ago.

[Bucksfans1and2]

I'd be very very surprised if we tagged Jennings unless TT has a trade worked out like he did with Corey Williams a few years ago.

Everybody's at the combine, the misinformation captial of the NFL. I'd be stun if this was anything more than floating a rumor out there and seeing who makes a call

[Enrique]

If they tag Jennings, probably means Finley is gone.

[Reddeye]

Bob McGinn ‏@BobMcGinn

Things can always change, but I've been told that #Dolphins' Joe Philbin isn't a huge fan of Greg Jennings as a player. Needs a WR but

[MickeyDavis]

This may turn out to be a Cullen Jenkins situation. Jennings will get a reasonable offer from another team that TT would willingly match but Jennings will walk anyway.

[zmanishere11]

This may turn out to be a Cullen Jenkins situation. Jennings will get a reasonable offer from another team that TT would willingly match but Jennings will walk anyway.

Yuuuuup. I'm still hoping he walks though....

Just saw this too:

Report: Packers torn on keeping Jermichael Finley

Posted by Josh Alper on February 25, 2013, 9:44 AM EST

AP
Sunday brought word that the Packers are still considering using their franchise tag on wide receiver Greg Jennings and that doesn’t seem to be the only issue vexing them with the start of free agency approaching quickly.

Bob McGinn of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports that the team is “torn” about whether or not they will keep tight end Jermichael Finley for the 2013 season. The question of Finley’s future has been batted around for months, with McGinn previously reporting that the Packers had already decided to dump Finley before the second year of the two-year deal he signed last offseason.

Now the word is that the Packers coaching staff and General Manager Ted Thompson want Finley to return for another year while “other people in the organization” favor his release. That split would seem to favor Finley’s return, although there may be a desire to revisit the financial picture on the Packers’ end of things.

Finley is due to have a cap figure of $8.75 million, a number McGinn suggests that the team might like to pare down via a restructuring although it’s unclear whether Finley would feel the need to take a pay cut to remain in Green Bay. The tight end market isn’t overflowing this offseason and Finley might decide to roll the dice on the possibility that someone else will give him a similar contract that runs beyond this season if faced with any demand to revisit his Packers contract.

If he takes a 50% salary reduction I'm fine with it (at least that way we get a comp pick if he leaves the following year). Can't imagine he's remotely interested in that though. I'd ask "how does this guy skate by every year with minimal production, lots of drops, and lots of complaining" but we all know the answer to that (it's the dreaded "P" word).

[emunney]

Obviously any restructuring would involve base salary being converted into signing bonus and additional years. As BF1&2 pointed out, they're not going to ask him to just take less money a year after he signed. It all depends on whether he wants to be here or not.