Junior Seau dead at 43

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #21 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:21 pm

I'm in "pro-choice" when it comes to these sports discussions but I could see these stories dooming football. Granted it had other reasons, but boxing used to be thy sport. Then the great started to die off from injuries due to their careers. It ultimately led to less people going into boxing and just the general public not enjoying the brutality of the sport. It went from toughness to stupidity for most of the average fan. Nobody wants to see a guy like ali having to ride in a motorcart just to awkwardly throw a first pitch. That guy transcended sports, but yet it was boxing that caused his demise and it turned off a lot of fans, myself included.

Kerb Hohl · Post #22 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:24 pm

There are plenty of guys that have chronic injuries from football but what are the percentages:

Boxing: 50-60% of guys leave with brain/head issues at some point in their life?

NFL: 1% serious...maybe up to 10% if you want to include minor stuff?

BUCKnation · Post #23 » by **BUCKnation** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:24 pm

In 1998, LB Doug Miller was struck by lightning while camping in Colorado. CPR was being performed on Miller when he was struck again by a second bolt.

It must have been his time...

Bucksfans1and2 · Post #24 » by **Bucksfans1and2** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:26 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:There are plenty of guys that have chronic injuries from football but what are the percentages:

Boxing: 50-60% of guys leave with brain/head issues at some point in their life?

NFL: 1% serious...maybe up to 10% if you want to include minor stuff?

I think you underestimate how bad the situation is for some of these players.

Kerb Hohl · Post #25 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:28 pm

Bucksfans1and2 wrote:
GrendonJennings wrote:There are plenty of guys that have chronic injuries from football but what are the percentages:

Boxing: 50-60% of guys leave with brain/head issues at some point in their life?

NFL: 1% serious...maybe up to 10% if you want to include minor stuff?

I think you underestimate how bad the situation is for some of these players.

Out of the Packers and the Bears current rosters (over 100 players), how many of them do you think will leave the NFL with serious head injuries? 5 with some form of lingering issues and 1 with serious head issues?

Kerb Hohl · Post #26 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:31 pm

And let me be clear in stating that I'm a very pro-protection guy when it comes to issues like this. I'm proactive about this stuff. I think we're running our numbers and worries a bit high here, though.

A kid was paralyzed playing hockey by me in Minnesota and they ran a 1 month debate on whether we should ban the sport. It's a tragic issue and I feel for whomever it happens to, but we went along with normal operations after we realized that it's something that's just going to happen and we need to keep studying how to cut down on it happening.

I don't think we're going to cancel a sport that touches so many people's lives growing up that they play and everyone watches. It's a risk you take, I guess.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #27 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:38 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:
Bucksfans1and2 wrote:
GrendonJennings wrote:There are plenty of guys that have chronic injuries from football but what are the percentages:

Boxing: 50-60% of guys leave with brain/head issues at some point in their life?

NFL: 1% serious...maybe up to 10% if you want to include minor stuff?

I think you underestimate how bad the situation is for some of these players.

Out of the Packers and the Bears current rosters (over 100 players), how many of them do you think will leave the NFL with serious head injuries? 5 with some form of lingering issues and 1 with serious head issues?

I would say probably closer to 35% if you follow it through age 50-70. And that is just shot in the air guess. You just don't hear about it cause the guy is in some nursing home late in life and not at team functions.

ETA: I'm including 'minor' memory loss and brain function. Stuff that normally happens but is much more progressed with those with head trauma.

Post #28 » by **ReasonablySober** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:40 pm

The rate of brain related illness is huge in former players over the age of 50, and these are the guys who weren't playing when linebackers 6'3", 250 lb and running 4.4s.

Kerb Hohl · Post #29 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:41 pm

That may be true. I personally don't think it's close to boxing but there are some lingering effects on former players. I'm just not sure it's as serious as we may be thinking right now.

Post #30 » by **ReasonablySober** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:52 pm

Do some reading up on the subject. I'd link to the articles I just read but I'm on my phone and it's tough to link. Multiple studies have been done in the last three years showing a large correlation between football and Alzheimer's and dementia. I'm anticipating reading about a large segment of the players we currently follow dieing sad, tragic deaths.

PkrsBcksGphsMqt · Post #31 » by **PkrsBcksGphsMqt** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:53 pm

This is really the only thing going wrong for the NFL lately and it's a serious issue. It seems like more former NFL guys commit suicide every year.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #32 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:57 pm

PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:This is really the only thing going wrong for the NFL lately and it's a serious issue. It seems like more former NFL guys commit suicide every year.

Was there others? I can only think of Seau and the Bears safety.

Kerb Hohl · Post #33 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 10:58 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:This is really the only thing going wrong for the NFL lately and it's a serious issue. It seems like more former NFL guys commit suicide every year.

Was there others? I can only think of Seau and the Bears safety.

Exactly. That's why I was saying it was a pretty low number. Duerson and wasn't there that Waters guy or something? Maybe more but I can't think of any right now.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #34 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:06 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:
MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:This is really the only thing going wrong for the NFL lately and it's a serious issue. It seems like more former NFL guys commit suicide every year.

Was there others? I can only think of Seau and the Bears safety.

Exactly. That's why I was saying it was a pretty low number. Duerson and wasn't there that Waters guy or something? Maybe more but I can't think of any right now.

Well, we are arguing 2 different things. I was arguing that there is a problem with old players having brain problems. Specifically, I do not think they have a constant of former players shooting them in their chest. That is pretty rare.

Kerb Hohl · Post #35 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:09 pm

Yeah, well I don't think there have been many other suicide examples but I think the older player head trauma issue is not comparable to boxing...not that it matters that much if it's bad.

Post #36 » by **humanrefutation** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:13 pm

Well, we've had a few more. Ray Easterling died from a gunshot wound to the head. Jim McMahon has been suffering from really serious memory loss and dementia-like symptoms which have been proximately related to his football career. And there was a study that I read that said that Alzheimer’s disease or similar memory-related diseases were diagnosed in retired players at a rate of 19 times the normal rate for men ages 30 through 49.

And, for every suicide we know about, I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more which don't get reported because either A. The player wasn't well-known enough to be a blip on the radar or B. The death was related to other circumstances which may not have a proximate cause to football, but could have been exacerbated by injuries to the head.

Again, the data is just beginning to become a part of the national discussion - despite the fact that there were studies back into the 1990s which indicated that there were serious issues with head trauma and football, it didn't really make national waves until the last few years. We're still learning more - and, to be sure, everything which has come out recently has been more and more alarming and disconcerting.

Post #37 » by **humanrefutation** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:15 pm

DrugBust wrote:I'm anticipating reading about a large segment of the players we currently follow dying sad, tragic deaths.

That's my fear.

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #38 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:15 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:Yeah, well I don't think there have been many other suicide examples but I think the older player head trauma issue is not comparable to boxing...not that it matters that much if it's bad.

Yeah, there is a TON of gray area. The one guy is making an argument about LBs being faster and stronger, but today's helmets and rules are 100x better at preventing concussions. It is just impossible to know how much of a beating the current players are taking. You just have to evolve the game where you don't effect the product but still take away the head shots. This game is moving onto intelligence, schemes and overall athleticism (not just strength/power). It's a tough line and can see both sides of the argument.

emunney · Post #39 » by **emunney** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:21 pm

Mike Webster was maybe the greatest C to play the game and maybe the saddest post-retirement story the NFL has created.

chuckleslove · Post #40 » by **chuckleslove** » Wed May 2, 2012 11:36 pm

I agree there is a ton of information we don't know, it is very likely that players are more likely to have brain disorders later in their life, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc...

The league should do everything it can to minimize the risk and impact it has. Beyond that players and people should make their own judgment about whether they want to risk that and when it is time for them to retire. You could see more people take the route of Barry Sanders and early retirement for their long term health.

I just think it should be up to the player themselves rather than some law prohibiting people from playing football, that is the only thing I took exception to.

Also you brought up other laws we have as a society to protect people from themselves and I'm opposed to those, specifically things like drug laws and such, but I don't want to get too far off topic and in to politics here

I'm pretty consistent in believing we don't need to be protected from ourselves and this falls in to that category too.