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Lions Postgame

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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#61 » by El Duderino » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:19 am

Ayt wrote:The defense did a damn fine job of giving up only 10 points to a very good Lions offense. Matthews getting injured hurt because he was playing like a madman today.

Our offense? Barf. MM's offense falls apart against teams that can get pressure rushing four all game.


I'm totally fine with moving on with a new head coach and getting some fresh ideas in place.

That said, most offenses tend to struggle when a defense can get away with rushing only four guys, still consistently get pressure, keep both safeties back, and also win vs the offensive line in the running game with only 6-7 in the box. It's the dream scenario for any defensive coordinator.

That is where an offensive line has to help make the defensive coordinator get out of that scheme by opening holes for running backs and giving the QB time to throw vs little to no blitzing. Had we been able to run the ball vs those 6-7 man fronts Detroit was using nearly all game, they would have had to adjust. Cover 2 is a long used scheme. It works really well when a front four gets pressure by itself and holds up vs the run with both safeties back. On the flip side, when an Oline wins vs Cover 2, it often gets picked apart in the run and passing game.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#62 » by Ron Swanson » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:21 pm

I've been a big McCarthy supporter in the past when people were prematurely calling for his head, but this game I can't help but put the majority of blame squarely on his shoulders.

The offensive play-calling was absolutely moronic. Shotgun draws with Starks/Lacy on 5 of our first 9 plays resulting in three "3 & outs"? Only 27 pass attempts for Aaron Rodgers? Completely inexcusable when you are going up against arguably the worst secondary in the league.

Our offensive game plan going in was destined for failure if your game plan is to literally play to the strengths of the other team (their D-line). Cobb can't be considered overrated if our coaching staff has absolutely no idea how to use his versatility (no bubble screens or snaps where he started in the backfield).

It's Monday, and I'm going to refrain from the typical "fire the coaching staff" kind of hyperbole and protestations, but this was an absolute failure of both scheme and execution on the offensive end, and outside of 2 & 1/2 quarters against the Jets, our offense has looked absolutely inept.

I can't put any of this on the defense, they played great considering the hole that McCarthy and the offensive coaching staff put them into. You score more than 7 points against a bad secondary when you have Aaron Rodgers on offense, period.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#63 » by JimmyTheKid » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:47 pm

awd4cy wrote:In McCarthy's post game he said he would run that same play again on the 1 yard line. Also was asked why he tried to establish the run as much as he did and didn't seem to go after Detroit's secondary as much. Pretty much dodged the question and said football is more complicated than that.


Slow developing run play against that monster D-Line. Of course your would, McCarthy.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#64 » by JimmyTheKid » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:48 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
packfan414 wrote:also, i can't possibly envision a scenario where TT ever fires mccarthy.


I think we see how this season plays out and whether the team gets better and/or the young guys get better. Still early. One skill MM has shown is an ability to rally the team.

But if we end up a 6-10 mess, then I'd clean out the entire house and see if someone new at coach/GM could salvage the final years of Rodgers career.


No chance. Too much talent on this team.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#65 » by MickeyDavis » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:52 pm

I try not to overreact. Last year we were also 1-2. Chicago started 3-0 so we were in a bigger hole although we did not yet have a division loss. Two years ago we were also 1-2 although the Fail Mary was one of those games.

But this years team seems different for some reason. Less talented. Mediocre. It's more than just a slow start. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.

Are there any other head coaches who also call plays? I agree with others who have commented about how inventive other offenses seem to be. Coming up with new plays and variations of old plays. We seem to run the same stuff game after game, year after year. It's my understanding that Clements does most of the work on the game plan each week. He and MM come up with the specific plays they want to use. Clements will offer suggestions to MM during the game but MM makes the final decision and calls the play, When he was OC in New Orleans the team finished 10th, 13th, 3rd, 14th, and 14th in points scored. His one year as SF OC the team was last (with rookie Alex Smith).

My main gripe about MM (and Capers) is they seem incapable of making adjustments during the game. The film they studied shows these plays should work so we're sticking to it no matter what.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#66 » by LikeABosh » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:07 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:But this years team seems different for some reason. Less talented. Mediocre. It's more than just a slow start. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.


I don't think you're wrong. I was having a similar thought today...I feel like this team is just okay. This is probably the first time in the Rodgers era that we've had so few receiving threats and it's starting to show.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#67 » by eagle13 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:26 pm

Too often the Players seem totally unprepared to handle the opponent’s game plan. And as MD said MM & Capers have shown zero ability to make in-game or half time adjustments. MM is totally inept in handling the challenge flag. His play-calling absolutely sucks. His success so far has been achieved through the dominance of Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. If Aaron is off MM is hopeless.

I expect Rodgers & the O to pull it together and the D improves each week that we still win division with 11-5.

MM’s teams’ biggest strengths are loyalty, chemistry and steady un-paniced play when behind.
If any of those cracked this team is toast.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#68 » by eagle13 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:30 pm

LikeABosh wrote:
MickeyDavis wrote:But this years team seems different for some reason. Less talented. Mediocre. It's more than just a slow start. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so.


I don't think you're wrong. I was having a similar thought today...I feel like this team is just okay. This is probably the first time in the Rodgers era that we've had so few receiving threats and it's starting to show.

We really seem to miss the TE game - Finley in the center of the field with a real YAC threat. Hopefully Bostick is as good as hyped.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#69 » by humanrefutation » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:50 pm

Robert Mays on Grantland had this comment on the Packers that I thought was interesting:L

Right now, it’s always something with the Packers.


That's been the case for a couple years now. It's our lack of a running game. It's our injuries. It's our defense.

I just, for once, would like to see what this team looks like when everything is what it should be.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#70 » by KidA24 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:51 pm

th87 wrote:- The draft and develop approach may not be the huge advantage it used to be, since more teams are adopting this approach and have caught up. Sproles would've looked good here.


Sproles would've looked very snazzy in his green and gold uniform, I have no doubt. I also have no doubt he would've been completely under utilized and would've been relegated to KR duties, and the occasional 3rd down blocking assignment.

The Packers inability to use Randall Cobb has proven that to me.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#71 » by MickeyDavis » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:25 pm

No tight end threat. No reliable third WR (Adams may be at some point but not yet, Boykins is just a guy). No effective receiver out of the backfield.

3 years ago we had Jennings, Jordie, Driver, Cobb, Jones and Finley. Letting Jennings go I could understand. Driver retired, ok. Finley hurt bad break. Now we're down to just Nelson and Cobb from the list, no one else has stepped up. I'd take Driver back right now. Offer Tony Gonzalez some cash. Anything.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#72 » by Flames24Rulz » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:59 pm

This might sound foolish but...what would Oakland want for Jones?
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#73 » by MickeyDavis » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:01 pm

Jason Wilde a few minutes ago said that the run from the end zone was McCarthy's call but that Rodgers changed where the run was to go. Not that it would have mattered much.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#74 » by Flames24Rulz » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:06 pm

Here's my biggest issue with McCarthy. I was one of his biggest detractors before the Super Bowl run -- since then, I've grown to actually like the guy and I truly do believe he's one of the better coaches in the league, especially when you watch some other teams bumble around out there every Sunday.

But ever since he's been the head coach of this team, he's had a philosophy that preaches balance. I remember back in 2006 and 2007, he said something to the effect that rushing yards aren't the big tell-all stat, but rushing attempts were. He didn't care about the 1-2 yard gains because he thought that would've opened up a big play for the passing game later on in the game. The problem with that is you're basically conceding drives early in the game and you're not letting your offense get much of a rhythm. I can think of several games, yesterday obviously included, where MM decides to stubbornly attempt to get the running game going. The problem is, he doesn't look at obvious mismatch disadvantages and the Lions secondary should've been picked apart all game long yesterday.

I hate the balance stat -- we didn't have much of a running game in 2007, 2010 and 2011, and guess what? It obviously didn't matter. When you can spread the field and get your main playmakers the ball, teams can't defend that. When your 3rd WR is just as good as many team's first CB (like in 2011), you should be able to pass the ball at will. I think our WR depth has obviously taken a hit in recent years, but especially this year. Still, Nelson and Cobb are playmakers. Get the ball in their hands. When the running game isn't going, don't waste away plays and downs by attempting to get the ground game going. You have the best, or second best, QB in the game. Let him make plays.

That's probably the most frustrating part about this. I feel that McCarthy doesn't realize how good Rodgers is and that hinders this team in games like yesterday.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#75 » by JimmyTheKid » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:12 pm

th87 wrote:Random musings:

- Maybe losing Schneider, Dorsey, and McKenzie is too much to overcome. Maybe TT gets too much credit.

- Maybe Philbin was the innovator here.

- Could Rodgers be getting into 1998-2000s Favre territory, having too much offensive freedom, with a pedestrian QB coach who doesn't make him better, and no one holding him accountable for always going for the big play? This is also my fault because I have him in FF.

- The draft and develop approach may not be the huge advantage it used to be, since more teams are adopting this approach and have caught up. Sproles would've looked good here.

- Passing on Harrison Smith and Lavonte David for Nick Perry and Jerel Worthy sucks. Yeah, hindsight, but if we want to the be the best, we have to hit those shots.

- Low round TEs from the past include Graham, Rudolph, Cameron, J. Thomas. We get Quarless and DJ Williams.


We've talked about this a lot at the water cooler today. What exactly did Joe Philbin do on Sundays? And now Tom Clements? I honestly have no idea. Are they nothing more than cheerleaders and pep-talkers? I'm sure they have defined roles from Monday to Saturday but how much of the playbook actually comes from the brains of the Packers Offensive Coordinator? If they don't design the plays or call the plays, what are they doing?
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#76 » by Kerb Hohl » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:30 pm

I'm pretty sure watching the current Dolphins as well as McAdoo and the Giants will tell you all you need to know about how much of a game-changer that those guys were.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#77 » by Ron Swanson » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:48 pm

Flames24Rulz wrote:Here's my biggest issue with McCarthy. I was one of his biggest detractors before the Super Bowl run -- since then, I've grown to actually like the guy and I truly do believe he's one of the better coaches in the league, especially when you watch some other teams bumble around out there every Sunday.

But ever since he's been the head coach of this team, he's had a philosophy that preaches balance. I remember back in 2006 and 2007, he said something to the effect that rushing yards aren't the big tell-all stat, but rushing attempts were. He didn't care about the 1-2 yard gains because he thought that would've opened up a big play for the passing game later on in the game. The problem with that is you're basically conceding drives early in the game and you're not letting your offense get much of a rhythm. I can think of several games, yesterday obviously included, where MM decides to stubbornly attempt to get the running game going. The problem is, he doesn't look at obvious mismatch disadvantages and the Lions secondary should've been picked apart all game long yesterday.

I hate the balance stat -- we didn't have much of a running game in 2007, 2010 and 2011, and guess what? It obviously didn't matter. When you can spread the field and get your main playmakers the ball, teams can't defend that. When your 3rd WR is just as good as many team's first CB (like in 2011), you should be able to pass the ball at will. I think our WR depth has obviously taken a hit in recent years, but especially this year. Still, Nelson and Cobb are playmakers. Get the ball in their hands. When the running game isn't going, don't waste away plays and downs by attempting to get the ground game going. You have the best, or second best, QB in the game. Let him make plays.

That's probably the most frustrating part about this. I feel that McCarthy doesn't realize how good Rodgers is and that hinders this team in games like yesterday.


I'm not going to downplay the importance of having a balanced offense, because it's incredibly important for sustained success and keeping the defense on their heels. But you did touch on something here in regards to McCarthy's willingness to trust his play-makers.

What I saw in yesterday's game was a microcosm of McCarthy's offensive philosophy. He's an old-school coach when it comes to scheme, meaning when something is working (run game last season), he wisely sticks with it. My problem is that, often times, Mike doesn't seem to tailor a game plan around matchups, which in this league is almost a must for any elite offense.

For example, the short toss/right side run play worked well for us last year but has become entirely predictable based on the formations we run it out of. So what does Mike do? Adapt the formation? No, he runs it again using different personnel (Starks instead of Lacy, extra TE instead of Kuhn) and again and again,etc. And can't seem to figure out why it still isn't working :roll:

If I were to tell McCarthy anything it would simply be "play to your strengths, and play to the opponents' weaknesses". 27 total pass attempts from Rodgers against the worst secondary in the league? Single back formation on nearly every single run play against a stout run D? Inexcusable.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#78 » by GB_Packers » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:01 pm

Sunday needs to get here badly. Want to wash the bad taste from my mouth yesterday gave me with a convincing win over the Bears. Our D will get another good test as well. But if we struggle against another bad secondary, oh boy. I'll jump on the panic boat as well.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#79 » by th87 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:32 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:I'm pretty sure watching the current Dolphins as well as McAdoo and the Giants will tell you all you need to know about how much of a game-changer that those guys were.


Will it now? Being good at one role doesn't automatically make you good at another.
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Re: Lions Postgame 

Post#80 » by GB_Packers » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:03 pm

Tulloch being out the rest of the year after being injured on a sack celebration is such a Lions thing to happen.

We've been pretty healthy thus far though. Unless I missed something, doesn't look like whatever happened with Clay was serious *knock on wood*

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