Post Game Dolphins

[msiris]

Clay hasnt been bad, but just a non factor considering he is payed to make a difference. He is not earning his contract.

[Mags FTW]

When Clay is healthy, he's great. Problem is, he's usually dinged up. He's still satisfactory/good under those circumstances, but definitely not worth his contract.

[HKPackFan]

There is cause for concern when your 2nd highest paid player is not doing well.

Especially because this is the year I FINALLY expected him to really have a dominant defensive MVP like season due to all the complementary players.

First and foremost he has Peppers opposite side. Second Mike Neal and Nick Perry are finally healthy and finally seem to know their position. Third Mike Daniels has developed into a dlineman that can also provide pressure.

Based on all those complementary players it seemed that Clay is not going to get any double teaming or and just has to beat his 1 on 1 matchups. Now, I haven't watch all 40 to 60 snaps per game of his, but there are plenty of times I'm watching clay get stonewalled 1 on 1. I've also seen plenty of times he's over pursued and the tackle helps move him 10 yards behind the pocket out of the play. He's also made some gaffes on the read option and run plays.

There was a time Clay would see a 1 on 1 match up and destroy people.

I don't know what's the problem.

#1) Is there too much tape on him and people have figured him out? Force him to just take his momentum out of the play?
#2) Is he just in a slump?
#3) Is the groin bothering him?
#4) Have all the injuries added up and the toll on his body has already begun to rob him of some of his athleticism?
#5) He's off the PEDs?

I honestly don't know the answer, and it could be a combination. Yet it is surprising, I thought the emergence of Daniels and the addition of Peppers would bring Clay back to his 2010 level of play when he had the benefit of Cullen Jenkins.

Something is wrong and I hope they get it sorted out. We need to him to become a dominant force come November - January, so if it's injury just rest him.

[ReasonablySober]

Just to add a name to the list of elite defensive guys not performing up to the standard they set:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pff_pete/status/522012513261862913[/tweet]

[Kerb Hohl]

Our "practice squad level player" scored a -0.9 on PFF. He scored a positive 0.1 on run defense.

Other players of note:
Hawk -1.6
Burnett -1.3
Tramon -1.6
Jones -1.8
Hyde -1.2
Bush -1.4
Peppers -0.6
House 0.3
Daniels 1.8
Shields 2.6
Perry 2.1
Guion 2.6
HHCD 2.8

[Siefer]

HHCD reminds me of Nick Collins in his uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time. I really, really like this kid.

Also, I'm still not over Nick Collins.

[Newz]

Our "practice squad level player" scored a -0.9 on PFF. He scored a positive 0.1 on run defense.

Other players of note:
Hawk -1.6
Burnett -1.3
Tramon -1.6
Jones -1.8
Hyde -1.2
Bush -1.4
Peppers -0.6
House 0.3
Daniels 1.8
Shields 2.6
Perry 2.1
Guion 2.6
HHCD 2.8

He's really lighting the world on fire for the sixth highest paid defender in the league. He was the eighth best player on our defense last week!

That totally changes my opinion of his performance this year. He's been worth every penny. Nothing to be concerned about at all.

[Newz]

HHCD reminds me of Nick Collins in his uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time. I really, really like this kid.

Also, I'm still not over Nick Collins.

Losing Collins to injury was pretty much the worst thing ever. I think he had a legit chance to be a Hall of Famer.

[Kerb Hohl]

Our "practice squad level player" scored a -0.9 on PFF. He scored a positive 0.1 on run defense.

Other players of note:
Hawk -1.6
Burnett -1.3
Tramon -1.6
Jones -1.8
Hyde -1.2
Bush -1.4
Peppers -0.6
House 0.3
Daniels 1.8
Shields 2.6
Perry 2.1
Guion 2.6
HHCD 2.8

He's really lighting the world on fire for the sixth highest paid defender in the league. He was the eighth best player on our defense last week!

That totally changes my opinion of his performance this year. He's been worth every penny. Nothing to be concerned about at all.

The point was that he hasn't at been "worse than Jones" or a "practice squad player" as you stated. Disappointed in his play for several of the games? Yes. Cause for concern? No. He'll probably get better. And he's going to be overpaid no matter what. So is everyone not named Watt, Rodgers, Manning, etc. in the league.

I think worst-case he gets back to being a "10 million dollar/year" guy.

My point is also that you can't get torn up about how a guy performs in comparison to his (bloated) contract in short spurts. Peppers once again is not earning his 9 million or whatever he is earning. Rodgers did not earn his 22 million the first 3 weeks of the season.

Tramon Williams was actually a good example. He earned a big contract, got hurt and didn't play up to it and just had a down season or two, and returned to being worth his $9 million/year. Even he has very down games according to PFF as seen this past week in his half of a game.

[Newz]

Our "practice squad level player" scored a -0.9 on PFF. He scored a positive 0.1 on run defense.

Other players of note:
Hawk -1.6
Burnett -1.3
Tramon -1.6
Jones -1.8
Hyde -1.2
Bush -1.4
Peppers -0.6
House 0.3
Daniels 1.8
Shields 2.6
Perry 2.1
Guion 2.6
HHCD 2.8

He's really lighting the world on fire for the sixth highest paid defender in the league. He was the eighth best player on our defense last week!

That totally changes my opinion of his performance this year. He's been worth every penny. Nothing to be concerned about at all.

The point was that he hasn't at been "worse than Jones" or a "practice squad player" as you stated. Disappointed in his play for several of the games? Yes. Cause for concern? No. He'll probably get better. And he's going to be overpaid no matter what. So is everyone not named Watt, Rodgers, Manning, etc. in the league.

I think worst-case he gets back to being a "10 million dollar/year" guy.

My point is also that you can't get torn up about how a guy performs in comparison to his (bloated) contract in short spurts. Peppers once again is not earning his 9 million or whatever he is earning. Rodgers did not earn his 22 million the first 3 weeks of the season.

Tramon Williams was actually a good example. He earned a big contract, got hurt and didn't play up to it and just had a down season or two, and returned to being worth his $9 million/year. Even he has very down games according to PFF as seen this past week in his half of a game.

So the point is that Clay has been playing poorly and has been a disappointment? But he's probably struggling due to injury and will probably get better when he is healthy? Awesome. That's exactly what I have been saying.

Also, the idea that everyone beside like the top 5 players in the NFL (considering you listed off guys like Rodgers, Manning and Watt) is overpaid and don't live up to their contracts is absolutely hilarious. We have plenty of guys on our own roster that play up to their contract level or well above it.

[Kerb Hohl]

In a given year, there are so many players that don't live up to their contract. Off the top of my head right now: Jake Long, Megatron, Graham, Mike Wallace, Brees, Brady, Vincent Jackson, etc.

The point being refuted was that he was a "practice squad player" this year which has now been refuted. Also, this entire argument is not over whether he has disappointed this year, it is that you said you'd consider cutting him at some point (not this year, and we didn't realize that it was pointless $-wise). My argument is that maybe I'd look into cutting him after 2015 if he somehow didn't get back to being a good player. Regardless, there is nothing that you could find me that would be a better use of a hypothetical $10 million in 2015 than "taking a chance" on a 29-year-old former superstar defensive player.

I don't think anyone will refute that he hasn't lived up to his contract. If you did a value analysis, my guess is that Sitton, Peppers, maybe Shields, Burnett, Hawk, Jones, Rodgers (maybe surpassing it), Starks have all fallen short of theirs. Not as far as Clay, but to some degree they may be falling short of their $ amount. This happens in a given year.

I do not expect Clay to be a top 10 defensive player in the NFL every week. I probably don't expect him to reach that level in a given year other than maybe one more time. This is the disproportionate salary structure in the NFL. If you told me he'd be a fringe top-20 guy for most of the rest of his contract, I'd pay every penny of it. Who wouldn't? For the forseeable future, at least, there isn't anything better you can do with that money.

You're taking this as a defense of Clay and excuses. It is more of a "relax, this happens to certain players and definitely happens in small samples."

[Newz]

1. All of the guys you listed are underachieving and they have been disappointments as well. Those guys all need to play better if their teams want to have a chance at winning it all... just like Clay needs to play better if the Packers want to make a Super Bowl run.
2. I believe it was last week that Matthews was the worst ranked OLB in the NFL against the run when you combined his grades from all weeks. I'm sure his 'amazing' +0.1 grade from this year brought that up a bit... but he has been far from good. He also has been worse than Brad Jones in relation to his contract and it isn't even close. Contract dollars vs. Performance he has been the worst player on the team, IMO.
3. There is a difference between falling short of your contract or being equal value and then just being total trash in comparison to your deal. You also have to have guys not only live up to their contract, but they have to play above their contract level in order for your team to win. Yes, guys like Jones and Hawk are underachieving big time compared to what we pay them... that's why fans are constantly giving those guys ****, because they suck. We need Clay to not suck because he makes 3-4 times as much as those guys... thus when he doesn't play well, it hurts even worse.
4. Yes, because that's what I said... he needs to be a "top 10 defensive player in the NFL every week". What?
5. I am relaxed. I said Matthews has been bad this year, has underachieved big time and IF IT ISN'T DUE TO INJURIES then we need to be concerned. You are the one who came into the thread and responded to that, even though I think you agree with a majority (if not everything) of what I am saying.

[Kerb Hohl]

I think that even if his struggles aren't due to injury we can relax. Guys return to form eventually. Or at least he'll return to being valuable or net value in a trade.

As to point #4, I wasn't suggesting that you had said that.

Contract value to production he has not been good. I have never disagreed with that. The one difference is that Jones and Hawk have almost never been very good. I would cut them at a moment's notice to save money. Clay, even though performing around even while making money, has shown he can be elite or very good for the better part of 4 seasons. I don't compare him in the same light. He could suck for 10 games and I'd still expect him to improve at some point. Hawk and Jones sucking can be termed as "next week."

[Godgers]

Clay Mathews

A. His body has already taken it's toll through his career.
B. He doesn't look close to as ripped and is now off of ROIDS.
C. Injured and we don't know about it.

I am going with B.

[Siefer]

HHCD reminds me of Nick Collins in his uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time. I really, really like this kid.

Also, I'm still not over Nick Collins.

Losing Collins to injury was pretty much the worst thing ever. I think he had a legit chance to be a Hall of Famer.

He was absolutely on a HoF trajectory. It guts me just thinking about it.

[Siefer]

This Clay Matthews conversation is pretty much the worst.

Any way you slice it, Clay has fallen off significantly this season. He's not dead weight, but we really need him to be special, and he's pretty clearly not. He's been chronically injured for awhile now, and we need to decide whether or not we can expect elite, or even very good play from him moving forward. He turns 29 next season, has a ton of red flags on his health, and may be coming off a poor 2014. He's not Brad Jones bad, and he's probably playing better than Hawk too, but the existence of those two disasters shouldn't prevent us from entertaining the possibility of restructuring him, or even cutting him if things don't turn around.

[Kerb Hohl]

This Clay Matthews conversation is pretty much the worst.

Any way you slice it, Clay has fallen off significantly this season. He's not dead weight, but we really need him to be special, and he's pretty clearly not. He's been chronically injured for awhile now, and we need to decide whether or not we can expect elite, or even very good play from him moving forward. He turns 29 next season, has a ton of red flags on his health, and may be coming off a poor 2014. He's not Brad Jones bad, and he's probably playing better than Hawk too, but the existence of those two disasters shouldn't prevent us from entertaining the possibility of restructuring him, or even cutting him if things don't turn around.

El Dude pointed out that there is basically no savings from cutting him.

He'd hold all the leverage in "pay cut" negotiations.

My question is even if that wasn't the case, if we could save money, why don't we save this question until before 2016? That's what I was getting at with Newz. If he struggles this year, what are you going to do with $10 million cap savings in 2015 other than sign a damaged goods guy like Clay Matthews?

It's a year-to-year thing, and I don't really know what you could do with the money (theoretically here since we know that we can only save like 400K by cutting him) that would be better than taking a chance in 2015 on a former superstar OLB.

If we could have saved 10 million for next year by cutting Clay, what are you guys thinking of doing with that? Wouldn't you rather wait another year on Clay? Is there something else on the FA market that would be more worthwhile than paying a former superstar defensive player at 29 years old to maybe return to form instead of paying him a bunch of dead money to play elsewhere?

Also, I believe Hawk and Jones both are either done or getting to the point where they have almost zero dead money going into next season. That's a much better use of cutting a player than Clay Matthews right there.

He's going to hold value for several years. Even if he is massively underwhelming there is no reason to cut him until probably 2017.

[Siefer]

This Clay Matthews conversation is pretty much the worst.

Any way you slice it, Clay has fallen off significantly this season. He's not dead weight, but we really need him to be special, and he's pretty clearly not. He's been chronically injured for awhile now, and we need to decide whether or not we can expect elite, or even very good play from him moving forward. He turns 29 next season, has a ton of red flags on his health, and may be coming off a poor 2014. He's not Brad Jones bad, and he's probably playing better than Hawk too, but the existence of those two disasters shouldn't prevent us from entertaining the possibility of restructuring him, or even cutting him if things don't turn around.

El Dude pointed out that there is basically no savings from cutting him.

He'd hold all the leverage in "pay cut" negotiations.

My question is even if that wasn't the case, if we could save money, why don't we save this question until before 2016? That's what I was getting at with Newz. If he struggles this year, what are you going to do with $10 million cap savings in 2015 other than sign a damaged goods guy like Clay Matthews?

It's a year-to-year thing, and I don't really know what you could do with the money (theoretically here since we know that we can only save like 400K by cutting him) that would be better than taking a chance in 2015 on a former superstar OLB.

If we could have saved 10 million for next year by cutting Clay, what are you guys thinking of doing with that? Wouldn't you rather wait another year on Clay? Is there something else on the FA market that would be more worthwhile than paying a former superstar defensive player at 29 years old to maybe return to form instead of paying him a bunch of dead money to play elsewhere?

Also, I believe Hawk and Jones both are either done or getting to the point where they have almost zero dead money going into next season. That's a much better use of cutting a player than Clay Matthews right there.

He's going to hold value for several years. Even if he is massively underwhelming there is no reason to cut him until probably 2017.

I'm not arguing that we should cut him, but we're still on the hook for $36 million in base salary after this season. We'd eat $12.7m for 2015, and then be clear.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-pa ... -matthews/

I don't think Clay has been a disaster, but he's playing relatively poorly, and given his injury history, I'm a little alarmed. Given the history, and this seasons poor play, if he doesn't turn it around, I wouldn't consider him untouchable.

[Kerb Hohl]

A clarification: If a guy is cut, do you only pay 1 more year or would we be paying all of his cap hits through the end of the deal?

[Godgers]

The most likely thing with Mathews is he was on roids and now is off. If you ask anyone to pick one player in the NFL you thought was on roids most people would say Clay Mathews.

Watching the games with some friends it was brought up how Mathews doesn't look half as ripped as he use to be.