2017 Playoffs baby!!

[pacers33granger]

Jazz fan here. Is Nate McMillian always this terrible?

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YES. Stellar move by Larry getting rid of Frank

Frank was just as garbage as Mcmillan is. His offense was always terrible and his defense was more Dan Burke's doing. Great motivator and that's about it.

[boomershadow]

Frank was just as garbage as Mcmillan is. His offense was always terrible and his defense was more Dan Burke's doing. Great motivator and that's about it.

Well Dan Burke is still here, and I've been extraordinarily unimpressed with our defense in just about every way for the majority of the year after Frank's departure. It doesn't hardly look like anybody on this team knows how to close out on a 3 point shooter, and that's something we excelled at under Frank.

A lot of that is also likely due to the departure of Mahinmi, but this idea that we can get rid of defensive coaches and defensive anchors and it will all be okay as long as Dan Burke makes a system just isn't panning out.

[pacers33granger]

Frank was just as garbage as Mcmillan is. His offense was always terrible and his defense was more Dan Burke's doing. Great motivator and that's about it.

Well Dan Burke is still here, and I've been extraordinarily unimpressed with our defense in just about every way for the majority of the year after Frank's departure. It doesn't hardly look like anybody on this team knows how to close out on a 3 point shooter, and that's something we excelled at under Frank.

A lot of that is also likely due to the departure of Mahinmi, but this idea that we can get rid of defensive coaches and defensive anchors and it will all be okay as long as Dan Burke makes a system just isn't panning out.

Our personnel just sucks for defense this year. PG is our only good defender in the normal rotation and he gets lazy because he has to do so much on offense.

I've been unimpressed with the defense as well, but I have been impressed with how Burke and Popeye have worked with guys like Seraphin to become better rim defenders (same as was done with Ian and Hibbert before).

I just have a problem with the idea that Frank would never let X happen. People have forgotten that he was the one who let Miles jack fadeaway threes for an entire season, he made multiple horrible playoff rotations, he failed to adjust constantly, etc. Orlando had the personnel to be a good defensive team and they sucked.

[SBM]

Good we are done. Honestly, I can't act like a diehard. I may find another team to follow next year. Not interested in the NBA making money off of the Paul George storyline all year next year. He didn't show up as a superstar in this close-out game, no surprise.

[Wizop]

Paul shouldn't be able to say the team let him down. I think he stays even if there is no path around LeBron.

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[SmashMouthRod]

Frank was just as garbage as Mcmillan is. His offense was always terrible and his defense was more Dan Burke's doing. Great motivator and that's about it.

Well Dan Burke is still here, and I've been extraordinarily unimpressed with our defense in just about every way for the majority of the year after Frank's departure. It doesn't hardly look like anybody on this team knows how to close out on a 3 point shooter, and that's something we excelled at under Frank.

A lot of that is also likely due to the departure of Mahinmi, but this idea that we can get rid of defensive coaches and defensive anchors and it will all be okay as long as Dan Burke makes a system just isn't panning out.

Our personnel just sucks for defense this year. PG is our only good defender in the normal rotation and he gets lazy because he has to do so much on offense.

I've been unimpressed with the defense as well, but I have been impressed with how Burke and Popeye have worked with guys like Seraphin to become better rim defenders (same as was done with Ian and Hibbert before).

I just have a problem with the idea that Frank would never let X happen. People have forgotten that he was the one who let Miles jack fadeaway threes for an entire season, he made multiple horrible playoff rotations, he failed to adjust constantly, etc. Orlando had the personnel to be a good defensive team and they sucked.

Orlando didnt have a good enough roster to do anything. That GM did a pitiful job assembling a roster to compete with. Payton is wildly erratic offensively (couldnt hit the side of a barn as a shooter), Hezonja looks like a bust. Jeff Green is erratic, Ibaka or ROss arent the type of guys to carry a team and neither is Vucevic (who also is a bad defender). The only nice player they have is Gordon; who still is coming into his own at this point. I have to disagree here. Frank seemed to have our team more organized if nothing else. Yes he made some bad playoff decisions (Hawks and Heat series come to mind), and often took too long to make rotational adjustments. But overall the team performed better with Frank. He does get somewhat of a pass for some of the mistakes because he had to learn on the job. It aint like him being under O'Brien all them years allowed for him to get deep playoff experience. The team didnt upgrade the position with the McMillan hire.

[pacers33granger]

Our personnel just sucks for defense this year. PG is our only good defender in the normal rotation and he gets lazy because he has to do so much on offense.

I've been unimpressed with the defense as well, but I have been impressed with how Burke and Popeye have worked with guys like Seraphin to become better rim defenders (same as was done with Ian and Hibbert before).

I just have a problem with the idea that Frank would never let X happen. People have forgotten that he was the one who let Miles jack fadeaway threes for an entire season, he made multiple horrible playoff rotations, he failed to adjust constantly, etc. Orlando had the personnel to be a good defensive team and they sucked.

Orlando didnt have a good enough roster to do anything. That GM did a pitiful job assembling a roster to compete with. Payton is wildly erratic offensively (couldnt hit the side of a barn as a shooter), Hezonja looks like a bust. Jeff Green is erratic, Ibaka or ROss arent the type of guys to carry a team and neither is Vucevic (who also is a bad defender). The only nice player they have is Gordon; who still is coming into his own at this point. I have to disagree here. Frank seemed to have our team more organized if nothing else. Yes he made some bad playoff decisions (Hawks and Heat series come to mind), and often took too long to make rotational adjustments. But overall the team performed better with Frank. He does get somewhat of a pass for some of the mistakes because he had to learn on the job. It aint like him being under O'Brien all them years allowed for him to get deep playoff experience. The team didnt upgrade the position with the McMillan hire.[/quote]

Payton, Ibaka, Biyombo, and Gordon are all solid to good defenders. That team had enough on it to be a decent defensive team, but yet it was a terrible one. No it was not put together to win, but the fact that it was bottom 10 in pretty much every single defensive metric along with teams actively trying to lose is at least partially on coaching as well.

The team was organized because of continuity, leadership from Hill and Ian, and a simple offense. Mcmillan's offense sucks too, but at least we didn't see nearly as many CJ heat check threes and slightly fewer from Paul. And Mcmillan had the balls to rein Ellis in. People might still not like how much time and shots he gets, but he got 6 minutes less and 5 fewer shots a game under Mcmillan while shooting better. Stuckey got 5 less minutes before his final injury as well.

I never said the team upgraded and they should have. They took a lateral because both Mcmillan and Vogel are below average coaches on their best days. I just have a problem with the revisionist history where Vogel is some sort of awesome Xs and Os guy who never made mistakes when he made tons and showed little growth as a coach over the years.

[Pacersike]

Perfect ending of the season.

Paul plays great, teammates suck. Teammates play good enough, PG sucks.

Kind of a copy and paste of Larry Bird assembling rosters.
PG in his prime, suckiest roster since the Murphleavy days, PG not yet in his prime, much better teammates.

They should stay together

[hood30]

Irving finished off Teague...Should Pacers bring back Teague?

Watch on YouTube

[Wizop]

Yes, we should try to keep Teague but not with all star money.

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[Pacers_Freak]

Our personnel just sucks for defense this year. PG is our only good defender in the normal rotation and he gets lazy because he has to do so much on offense.

I've been unimpressed with the defense as well, but I have been impressed with how Burke and Popeye have worked with guys like Seraphin to become better rim defenders (same as was done with Ian and Hibbert before).

I just have a problem with the idea that Frank would never let X happen. People have forgotten that he was the one who let Miles jack fadeaway threes for an entire season, he made multiple horrible playoff rotations, he failed to adjust constantly, etc. Orlando had the personnel to be a good defensive team and they sucked.

Orlando didnt have a good enough roster to do anything. That GM did a pitiful job assembling a roster to compete with. Payton is wildly erratic offensively (couldnt hit the side of a barn as a shooter), Hezonja looks like a bust. Jeff Green is erratic, Ibaka or ROss arent the type of guys to carry a team and neither is Vucevic (who also is a bad defender). The only nice player they have is Gordon; who still is coming into his own at this point. I have to disagree here. Frank seemed to have our team more organized if nothing else. Yes he made some bad playoff decisions (Hawks and Heat series come to mind), and often took too long to make rotational adjustments. But overall the team performed better with Frank. He does get somewhat of a pass for some of the mistakes because he had to learn on the job. It aint like him being under O'Brien all them years allowed for him to get deep playoff experience. The team didnt upgrade the position with the McMillan hire.

Payton, Ibaka, Biyombo, and Gordon are all solid to good defenders. That team had enough on it to be a decent defensive team, but yet it was a terrible one. No it was not put together to win, but the fact that it was bottom 10 in pretty much every single defensive metric along with teams actively trying to lose is at least partially on coaching as well.

The team was organized because of continuity, leadership from Hill and Ian, and a simple offense. Mcmillan's offense sucks too, but at least we didn't see nearly as many CJ heat check threes and slightly fewer from Paul. And Mcmillan had the balls to rein Ellis in. People might still not like how much time and shots he gets, but he got 6 minutes less and 5 fewer shots a game under Mcmillan while shooting better. Stuckey got 5 less minutes before his final injury as well.

I never said the team upgraded and they should have. They took a lateral because both Mcmillan and Vogel are below average coaches on their best days. I just have a problem with the revisionist history where Vogel is some sort of awesome Xs and Os guy who never made mistakes when he made tons and showed little growth as a coach over the years.[/quote]

Frank certainly had his faults. The one thing I would say about him as opposed to this year was we seemed to get more buy in from the team. There were less nights where it looked like there were a million places they would rather be than on the floor. I can handle being bad, but the effort that was shown by this club on given nights was pathetic. The bottom line was I had no problem with Larry deciding to go in a different direction, but he totally screwed the pooch by taking the easy way out and hiring Nate. Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't even interview anyone from the outside.

[Wizop]

The NBA had admitted that LeBron traveled before making the go ahead 3. I'm shocked. LeBron traveled??? Next you are going t tell me that Michael Jordan slapped arms or Pat Riley teams fouled so often the refs let them go. The NBA needs to stop thinking that the game will suffer if the stars are held to the same standards as rookies.

[Pacers_Freak]

The NBA had admitted that LeBron traveled before making the go ahead 3. I'm shocked. LeBron traveled??? Next you are going t tell me that Michael Jordan slapped arms or Pat Riley teams fouled so often the refs let them go. The NBA needs to stop thinking that the game will suffer if the stars are held to the same standards as rookies.

Ironically it is one of the less egregious travel no calls of LeBron's career.

[Wizop]

agreed. Players are routinely allowed to shuffle their feet as they catch the ball outside the arc. that's separable from stars getting an extra step on drives.

[SBM]

Yes, we should try to keep Teague but not with all star money.

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What's all-star money?

[pacers33granger]

Frank certainly had his faults. The one thing I would say about him as opposed to this year was we seemed to get more buy in from the team. There were less nights where it looked like there were a million places they would rather be than on the floor. I can handle being bad, but the effort that was shown by this club on given nights was pathetic. The bottom line was I had no problem with Larry deciding to go in a different direction, but he totally screwed the pooch by taking the easy way out and hiring Nate. Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't even interview anyone from the outside.

There were rumors that PG wanted Nate, but those are just rumors. I feel one big motivating factor was that Bird wanted to keep the staff in place and Mcmillan was likely the only hire that did that. May also have been motivated by Simon's desire to save money.

I was pissed about the Nate hire at first but gave him and Larry the benefit of the doubt. However, he sucked (though I do feel he got a bit more crap than he deserved and did some good things). No coach is going to be perfect, but both Vogel and Mcmillan had way more failings than positives imo. It's a big problem when teams like Philly have much better ball movement than we've had under both coaches.

[Wizop]

What's all-star money?

good question. last year lots of teams went crazy with the new cap room and average starters got crazy money. will the new CBA rein that in a bit? too soon to tell. starters money must be over 10 now but is every starter worth over 20? I wouldn't think so as 5 players getting 20 would eat up most of the cap for a team with lots of players yet to sign. are you allowed to do incentives in the new CBA? I don't think I'd want to guarantee a lot more than 15 but I'd be okay with incentives for making the all star or all pro team or averaging 10 assists or even for playoff success if that's allowed.

[Pacers_Freak]

Frank certainly had his faults. The one thing I would say about him as opposed to this year was we seemed to get more buy in from the team. There were less nights where it looked like there were a million places they would rather be than on the floor. I can handle being bad, but the effort that was shown by this club on given nights was pathetic. The bottom line was I had no problem with Larry deciding to go in a different direction, but he totally screwed the pooch by taking the easy way out and hiring Nate. Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't even interview anyone from the outside.

There were rumors that PG wanted Nate, but those are just rumors. I feel one big motivating factor was that Bird wanted to keep the staff in place and Mcmillan was likely the only hire that did that. May also have been motivated by Simon's desire to save money.

I was pissed about the Nate hire at first but gave him and Larry the benefit of the doubt. However, he sucked (though I do feel he got a bit more crap than he deserved and did some good things). No coach is going to be perfect, but both Vogel and Mcmillan had way more failings than positives imo. It's a big problem when teams like Philly have much better ball movement than we've had under both coaches.

I'm almost in the same boat as you on this topic. I gave Nate benefit of the doubt as well. If he wanted to keep the staff in tact why not just keep Frank? The whole situation was odd.

[pacers33granger]

Frank certainly had his faults. The one thing I would say about him as opposed to this year was we seemed to get more buy in from the team. There were less nights where it looked like there were a million places they would rather be than on the floor. I can handle being bad, but the effort that was shown by this club on given nights was pathetic. The bottom line was I had no problem with Larry deciding to go in a different direction, but he totally screwed the pooch by taking the easy way out and hiring Nate. Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't even interview anyone from the outside.

There were rumors that PG wanted Nate, but those are just rumors. I feel one big motivating factor was that Bird wanted to keep the staff in place and Mcmillan was likely the only hire that did that. May also have been motivated by Simon's desire to save money.

I was pissed about the Nate hire at first but gave him and Larry the benefit of the doubt. However, he sucked (though I do feel he got a bit more crap than he deserved and did some good things). No coach is going to be perfect, but both Vogel and Mcmillan had way more failings than positives imo. It's a big problem when teams like Philly have much better ball movement than we've had under both coaches.

I'm almost in the same boat as you on this topic. I gave Nate benefit of the doubt as well. If he wanted to keep the staff in tact why not just keep Frank? The whole situation was odd.

I think Bird fully believes the whole players tune coaches out after 3 years thing. He's probably a bit right and a change was needed.

What he didn't account for is players tuning Nate out almost instantly, which to be fair is partially on the players imo. All throughout the season you could see Nate telling guys to push it and they'd walk it up the court and waste clock. This is one area I feel Nate tried his best, but it didn't work (possibly because of his style, idk).

[Wizop]

All throughout the season you could see Nate telling guys to push it and they'd walk it up the court and waste clock. This is one area I feel Nate tried his best, but it didn't work (possibly because of his style, idk).

I understand that NBA players like substitution by the clock but when a player doesn't do as instructed, the coach's recourse is to substitute.