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The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread

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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#221 » by Quake Griffin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:25 am

FNQ, I thought the word on Feliciano was that he wasn't polished and he was going to be a project that wasn't going to see time this year. I know he played everywhere on the line in Miami but I thought the word was still that he was a project and wasn't going to unseat anybody in his 1st year.

I don't really disagree with the grade, just the means to how you got there (unless I misremembered). I remember it being that Reggie took him in the 4th round when he could possibly be there in the 7th or a UDFA?


Either way, it would be a crucial mistake to neglect the offensive line during this draft. Penn is getting old, Watson has a torn achilles. Webb is trash and Howard is meh (almost got Carr killed in the 1st quarter today).
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#222 » by Twinkie defense » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:33 am

You have too many guys grading higher than Amari... it is a sign of how good he is that he's setting records and will easily have 1,000 yards receiving but is still getting criticized.


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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#223 » by FNQ » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:56 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:You have too many guys grading higher than Amari... it is a sign of how good he is that he's setting records and will easily have 1,000 yards receiving but is still getting criticized.


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I'm grading based on value of pick, not a flat grade for each player. At #4 overall, Cooper (despite the stats that were mostly accrued in 1st half) has been making a lot of simple mistakes, leads the league in drops.. I wouldn't expect that from the top WR in the class. And I also don't buy the 'statistically better than most rookie WRs' stuff, because most times rookie WRs don't start straight away, and when they do, they don't have as good of QBs.

To me, the marker I'm using is Kelvin Benjamin of last year. His team didn't need to throw as much (Carr has more pass attempts than Cam did last year right now), he supposedly had some bad hands, and he only dropped 8 passes last year to Cooper's 9. It's a valid concern, because Cooper could and should be doing a lot better statistically, but is making focus errors.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#224 » by FNQ » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:FNQ, I thought the word on Feliciano was that he wasn't polished and he was going to be a project that wasn't going to see time this year. I know he played everywhere on the line in Miami but I thought the word was still that he was a project and wasn't going to unseat anybody in his 1st year.

I don't really disagree with the grade, just the means to how you got there (unless I misremembered). I remember it being that Reggie took him in the 4th round when he could possibly be there in the 7th or a UDFA?


Either way, it would be a crucial mistake to neglect the offensive line during this draft. Penn is getting old, Watson has a torn achilles. Webb is trash and Howard is meh (almost got Carr killed in the 1st quarter today).



Maybe, but I heard we took him because he was polished/ready-now type. He only allowed one sack all last year, and was versatile on the line, having played everywhere but RT. I'd have to double check on what people expected from him, but I don't see a ton of long-term potential in a guy like Feliciano. Usually you want more of an athlete when you draft for potential.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#225 » by FNQ » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:07 pm

Quake:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737713/johnathan-feliciano
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/jon-feliciano?id=2552343

It might be that they're red shirting him to get him into NFL shape, which I'm fine with. But the pick was a reach to begin with, and considering that every outlet noted his experience and versatility, I would expect that he's active this year, and so far he hasn't been. Still some time to evaluate, and hopefully he gets some snaps. The NFL.com one doesnt have a long-term prognosis, but CBS did:

IN OUR VIEW: Feliciano is a very experienced starter who comes from a more traditional style offense, he offers you position flexibility with your gameday actives on the offensive line. While he has his limitations athletically, he looks to be the kind of guy who will stick around on a roster, an easy guy to project because he is basically what he is going to be in a few years already going into the draft.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#226 » by benchmobbin02 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:01 am

He needed to get his body right strength wise but Reggie drafted him on his intangibles. I seriously doubt that he will see any snaps this year. And that is fine because we all the depth that we need with Bergstom, Barnes and McCants in the rotation. He was a project to start with and next year I think he take Bergstrom spot at backup interior linemen.

If you look at the guards taken after him in the draft, none of them have performed well so we can't grade the pick yet regardless of what the predraft profiles say.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#227 » by FNQ » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:40 am

It doesn't really matter if other guards performed better than him that were selected after him, because we weren't bound by anything to have to select a guard. There definitely have been better players selected behind him, and even then saying "we should have drafted X!!!1!!" doesn't fly with me too well because its easy to nitpick in retrospect.

But, saying that he was supposed to be a more ready-now type, and has not dressed for game day yet and is riding pine behind a guy like Tony Bergstrom, who is not a quality rotation player and not even a quality backup, does not speak well for him thus far. As of right now the +s on this guy are his versatility, experience, and having a mean streak. That's all well and good and I hope we can get something from the pick, but the thoughts around him were pretty similar - he doesn't have a ton of physical advantages, his technique was sketchy, he played heavier than he should, and his upside is limited.

If I can't grade him through 14 weeks, I can't grade anyone. But I did, so I can. A 4th round pick that's unable to unseat Bergstrom and does not have significant upside looks like a wasted pick to this point. If he becomes a decent backup, still wasted? :dontknow: Would depend on your definition of a successful pick in the 4th. He will likely have a chance to win the job next year, so that will be telling.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#228 » by benchmobbin02 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:51 am

I think it does matter that guys at his position that were taken after him and pressed into service haven't performed well. If he comes in next year and earns a spot on the active roster and plays well then it isn't a wasted pick. Regardless of what the predraft profiles said he needed more time to develop his body and we had a guy in Bergstrom in front of him that has performed well this year.

FNQ - If I can't grade him through 14 weeks, I can't grade anyone. But I did, so I can. A 4th round pick that's unable to unseat Bergstrom and does not have significant upside looks like a wasted pick to this point.


How can you grade someone that you haven't seen play. Ridiculous logic. You are relying on other predraft grades and write ups to talk about his potential. GTHOH with that! We'll see next year when he comes in and surprises like the rest of Reggie's mid round picks.

I expected you to bad mouth Bergstrom because that is a fall back position for some Raider fans. Well, Tony has proven to be a a quality backup and even a quality rotation player if needed.

Bergstrom PFF grade
https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2015&pre=REG&page=2&surn=b&playerid=7095

All Centers Grades
https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2015&pos=C&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1&conf=-1&yr=-1&wk=1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17

Notice that when Bergstrom starts that he performs very well and look at the competition in his starts - Minnestoa with Linval Joseph and Shariff Floyd, Tennessee with Sammie Hill and Jurrell Casey and KC with Jay Howard and Dontari Poe. All good interior players and Bergstrom is rated plus in all categories. He is rated better then most teams starting center.

So I think a non wasted pick 4th pick is a guy that can compete to make the active roster inside his rookie deal. I think Feli is on his way there next year. We'll see.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#229 » by FNQ » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:28 pm

FNQ wrote:With the season 80% done, I think we can safely evaluate some of our picks the past year. Just basing grades on how they've played this year.


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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#230 » by benchmobbin02 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:40 pm

Well, since he hasn't played then the grade should be INC not F.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#231 » by Twinkie defense » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:12 am

F or INC, either way not too good...

I agree sometimes guys need some seasoning and early PT is not indicative of future performance. Seth Roberts is one such guy - I wouldn't have thought about the guy at all this season, had there not been glowing reports coming out of training camp and then flashes of quality play in preseason. Same with Heeney - I liked what I saw, with him flying around out there, making tackles left and right like he's Chris Borland. But it was also obvious he also needed some work, and tended to overpursue.

My general principle is your first and second round guys really need to make an impact in their first years (unless they're QBs and you have a decent QB ahead of them). If a high pick doesn't make a statement right out of the gate that's a bad sign. Guys in lower rounds, obviously there is some reason they were drafted where they were. A number of them might or might not make an impact immediately - if they do, great. And otherwise you just have to hope they can play a role on special teams and be ready in the not-too distant future, when we need them.

Regarding Bergstrom, he was a pretty high pick - end of third round compensatory pick (he's basically the guy we got for Nnamdi Asomugha). He's in his fourth year and has only had four career starts, three of them basically in an emergency situation. You don't HAVE to hit on a guy you draft basically at the top of the fourth round (though it helps if you do). But I think it's pretty clear at this point that Bergstrom was a miss, and that if he hadn't subbed in for Hudson someone else would have done so and probably not crapped the bed - if you are a lineman how hard can it be to snap the ball?
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#232 » by benchmobbin02 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:47 am

Twinkie defense wrote:F or INC, either way not too good...

Regarding Bergstrom, he was a pretty high pick - end of third round compensatory pick (he's basically the guy we got for Nnamdi Asomugha). He's in his fourth year and has only had four career starts, three of them basically in an emergency situation...But I think it's pretty clear at this point that Bergstrom was a miss, and that if he hadn't subbed in for Hudson someone else would have done so and probably not crapped the bed - if you are a lineman how hard can it be to snap the ball?



Of course F or INC aren't good...

But there is a big difference between F means you have failed at your attempt and INC means you have tried yet. Which means there is nothing to grade yet. Believe me I'll be grading him too when it makes sense.

If you wanna get into Bergstrom we can. I don't consider him a bust. I consider him a depth roster player that will could be more.

He was drafted in 2012 to play in the Zone blocking system on the advice of Steve Wisniewski. He was behind Carlisle and Brisiel that year at G but was the main backup interior linemen.

In that system in 2013 he earned the starting LG job in preseason but hurt his foot and was lost for the season.

In 2014 we moved to a more power running scheme adding Howard, Jackson and Penn. Bergstrom looked like he may get bounced due to rust and not being a system fit but he turned himself into a center leading to this year.

In 2015 stepped into starting role of our all pro center Hudson and was a plus in all phases and was rated better most starting centers in the league.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#233 » by FNQ » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:21 pm

Feliciano gets an F because he was a reach, he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside and can't make the active roster despite our thin-ness at the positions. We even erased potential competition (Boothe) before the beginning of the season. Of course, you'd need to re-read the 1st line and the explanation in-tandem to understand that, which is why I'm still confused as to why it's unclear. I don't live under the fantasy that everything Reggie does comes up roses, just as the past few years I wasn't calling him a terrible GM.

As for Bergstrom, grades aside, why didn't he come in for Howard? He did for one play, but ultimately the Raiders kicked Webb out to T and put Barnes inside. I'm a big fan of the grades, why wouldn't Bergstrom supplant Webb if he's clearly better?
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#234 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:57 pm

Max Valles to Buffalo?

F?
Something I can live with given that we did well picking up Amerson.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#235 » by benchmobbin02 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:06 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Max Valles to Buffalo?

F?
Something I can live with given that we did well picking up Amerson.


That really sucks but it the risk you take with stashing players on the PS. I think he is gonna be a good player and maybe we can grab him back in the offseason.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#236 » by benchmobbin02 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:18 pm

FNQ wrote:Feliciano gets an F because he was a reach, he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside and can't make the active roster despite our thin-ness at the positions. We even erased potential competition (Boothe) before the beginning of the season. Of course, you'd need to re-read the 1st line and the explanation in-tandem to understand that, which is why I'm still confused as to why it's unclear. I don't live under the fantasy that everything Reggie does comes up roses, just as the past few years I wasn't calling him a terrible GM.

As for Bergstrom, grades aside, why didn't he come in for Howard? He did for one play, but ultimately the Raiders kicked Webb out to T and put Barnes inside. I'm a big fan of the grades, why wouldn't Bergstrom supplant Webb if he's clearly better?


Well that is your opinion about Feli that he was a reach. I disagree and think I'll be proven right next yr. We'll see. I don't think every think that Reggie does is perfect but I also don't go out of my way to down grade him when the matter hasn't drawn a performance to grade yet. But you can make those judge as you see fit. Just makes it easier and more fun for us on the this side when he is proven right.

Bergstrom didn't replace Webb at guard because, just like I said earlier, he spent last season preparing to play center in our system. He isn't a natural fit for guard on the power blocking line. And never has been but he worked hard and became a good fit for the team at backup center and that is where he has excelled this yr.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#237 » by FNQ » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:21 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Max Valles to Buffalo?

F?
Something I can live with given that we did well picking up Amerson.


Nah, if a pick is so good that he's taken off the PS, what can you do? Might be roster mismanagement if he turns out to be a better player than say, Leon Orr, but ultimately for it to matter he (Valles) would have to become a productive + player. We've let semi-productive players go in the 6th and 7th rounds before - David Bass, Stevie Brown, Jack Crawford - so it's hard to hold it against Reggie that a guy is sought out from our PS unless it turns out to be a big mistake. I can't remember a time where the Raiders let someone from the PS go and they regretted it.

Sucks though, because I really liked Valles and thought he would compete for an edge rushing role in 2016.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#238 » by FNQ » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:28 pm

benchmobbin02 wrote:
FNQ wrote:Feliciano gets an F because he was a reach, he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside and can't make the active roster despite our thin-ness at the positions. We even erased potential competition (Boothe) before the beginning of the season. Of course, you'd need to re-read the 1st line and the explanation in-tandem to understand that, which is why I'm still confused as to why it's unclear. I don't live under the fantasy that everything Reggie does comes up roses, just as the past few years I wasn't calling him a terrible GM.

As for Bergstrom, grades aside, why didn't he come in for Howard? He did for one play, but ultimately the Raiders kicked Webb out to T and put Barnes inside. I'm a big fan of the grades, why wouldn't Bergstrom supplant Webb if he's clearly better?


Well that is your opinion about Feli that he was a reach. I disagree and think I'll be proven right next yr. We'll see. I don't think every think that Reggie does is perfect but I also don't go out of my way to down grade him when the matter hasn't drawn a performance to grade yet. But you can make those judge as you see fit. Just makes it easier and more fun for us on the this side when he is proven right.

Bergstrom didn't replace Webb at guard because, just like I said earlier, he spent last season preparing to play center in our system. He isn't a natural fit for guard on the power blocking line. And never has been but he worked hard and became a good fit for the team at backup center and that is where he has excelled this yr.


So in preparing to play C, he forgot how to play G, where he was drafted? I dont think when you come up with a meh backup 3+ years down the road you consider that a success, considering that the first years were terrible?

As for Feli, it was universally called a reach. In the later rounds, its not that big a deal frankly. But it is what it is - we reached on a low upside guy who isn't ready right now. Of course, I really went out of my way to downgrade Reggie, because all the other picks reek of me hating on him. No, the truth actually is - just like the past year when I was apparently an apologist - that I can see both sides of the coin and don't have to rah rah on one side exclusively. We're thin at OL, and Feliciano - a reach - doesn't dress on game day. The only + that can be taken from his selection to this point is that we have him on the 53, and frankly I'd rather we have kept Valles, who at least has tangible upside. Everything else re: Feliciano is blind hope that Reggie drafted right. If Feliciano turns out to be a starter, that's great. But he sure isn't trending that way by anyone's measure.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#239 » by benchmobbin02 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:35 am

FNQ wrote:
benchmobbin02 wrote:
FNQ wrote:Feliciano gets an F because he was a reach, he isn't ready despite his profile, has 'meh' upside and can't make the active roster despite our thin-ness at the positions. We even erased potential competition (Boothe) before the beginning of the season. Of course, you'd need to re-read the 1st line and the explanation in-tandem to understand that, which is why I'm still confused as to why it's unclear. I don't live under the fantasy that everything Reggie does comes up roses, just as the past few years I wasn't calling him a terrible GM.

As for Bergstrom, grades aside, why didn't he come in for Howard? He did for one play, but ultimately the Raiders kicked Webb out to T and put Barnes inside. I'm a big fan of the grades, why wouldn't Bergstrom supplant Webb if he's clearly better?


Well that is your opinion about Feli that he was a reach. I disagree and think I'll be proven right next yr. We'll see. I don't think every think that Reggie does is perfect but I also don't go out of my way to down grade him when the matter hasn't drawn a performance to grade yet. But you can make those judge as you see fit. Just makes it easier and more fun for us on the this side when he is proven right.

Bergstrom didn't replace Webb at guard because, just like I said earlier, he spent last season preparing to play center in our system. He isn't a natural fit for guard on the power blocking line. And never has been but he worked hard and became a good fit for the team at backup center and that is where he has excelled this yr.


So in preparing to play C, he forgot how to play G, where he was drafted? I dont think when you come up with a meh backup 3+ years down the road you consider that a success, considering that the first years were terrible?

As for Feli, it was universally called a reach. In the later rounds, its not that big a deal frankly. But it is what it is - we reached on a low upside guy who isn't ready right now. Of course, I really went out of my way to downgrade Reggie, because all the other picks reek of me hating on him. No, the truth actually is - just like the past year when I was apparently an apologist - that I can see both sides of the coin and don't have to rah rah on one side exclusively. We're thin at OL, and Feliciano - a reach - doesn't dress on game day. The only + that can be taken from his selection to this point is that we have him on the 53, and frankly I'd rather we have kept Valles, who at least has tangible upside. Everything else re: Feliciano is blind hope that Reggie drafted right. If Feliciano turns out to be a starter, that's great. But he sure isn't trending that way by anyone's measure.



No, he didn't forget how to play guard. He is not as suited to play the position in the system that we run as Barnes is. Bergstrom is a more finesse lineman with good footwork and speed that lends itself to the zone blocking system. It's something anyone that follows football and the Raiders as closely as you claim to would understand. But since it doesn't line up with your line of reasoning you choose to ignore it, even tho I have pointed this point out twice now. But that's cool. Keep putting these posts out there on the record.

With Feli to continue on right from where you left off...We weren't thin at oline until the middle of last game when Howard went down. Only Hudson was missing real time at C and BERGSTROM filled in for him nicely which you also continue to ignore. Barnes is a vet that can play T and G on any side, is good in the power system or the zone and can be the extra T in big sets and flex out and catch a pass. We only dress 7 linemen, So Feli was never gonna crack that unless we are super short due to injury. In the weeks where Hudson was inactive Feli does dressing. He is right where Reggie envisioned he would be when drafted and where many mid round guys are in their rookie yr.

Look at Ball and Heeney. They have shined no doubt this year. But they would have never gotten that chance if Moore didn't have setbacks injury wise and was eventually traded, Ray Ray wasn't a disappointment from what we thought he would be in the preseason and Lofton didn't turn out to be a stiff. They would be riding the bench or be fringe special teams guys just like Feli is but since they have gotten the opportunity to perform and have played well we grade them as successes. But I guess they would be F's too if those other guys would have worked out. That's the point, YOU DON'T KNOW!

All Im saying is that Feli is in the same boat. And all you can harp on is his predraft profiles because you have nothing else to grade him on thru no fault of his own. You have no idea what progress he has made from that time. Being a fair judge of the moves that Reggie has made is important but we have to be FAIR not just swing wildly with assumptions.
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Re: The Oakland Raiders 2015 Draft Thread 

Post#240 » by FNQ » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:09 am

lol I'm fully aware that Bergstrom is a ZBS player, and that we've run power the past 3 years. It doesn't negate the fact that he's not very good at it, and if we use a 3rd round pick and wind up with a backup C, that's not a success story. Didn't we also have snapping issues the entire time Bergstrom was at C? But that's ok, because he had a good grade? AQ Shipley was what, 4th in C grades last year as a backup? The Colts let him walk without a fight, and he's been average at best there. So while I do like PFF's grades, it seems that NFL teams don't value them that much.

It's funny, you have no problem assuming on your end, but if anyone else does, its just so wrong... you assume Ray Ray/Moore were jettisoned solely because of poor play - as if our OL play has been stellar - but it couldnt be because Ball and Heeney did well in practice and pre-season.. Teams promote/demote as much based on practice as they do on game performance, so in summation - DO YOU KNOW?! :D Also re: Moore, he sure doesn't look the same does he? Like he rushed back to the field because sitting out a year is a payday death sentence..

All I can do is cite *universal* draft profiles that put him as a depth guard at best that was ticketed for the 7th/UDFA, with very limited potential. And while those aren't ironclad right, I tend to take draftniks universally agreeing over fans just saying 'wait and see!' because they really believe in the GM. Reggie has been great, but not without flaw.
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