Thoughts on the final 53 and depth chart

[benchmobbin02]

I seen that. This could be a foreshadow or insurance for the coming IR of CWood. He was a true warrior and very savvy in avoiding having to use the bum shoulder in hits. Both times he was one on one with an open field runner he went low and with the opposite shoulder. It's to his credit but also a matter of time before he looks really bad out there, misses a big tackle or really messes up that shoulder. To be clear I wish none of that on him and he is in my top 5 fav Raider of all-time.

With that in mind, Amerson is definitely a guy that needed a change of scenery and system, maybe even better coaching. Looking at the type of corner best suited for Washington's defense, the cover 2, you come up with guys like DeAngelo Hall and Asante Samuel. At 6'1 205, big hands, long arms, a 4.35 40 and great athletic #s, he is a physical man corner or FS. And both of those areas are places he could be of use for us. FNQ said he has the physical tools which I agree with but I don't agree that he is "not good at all."

The current state of our secondary is questionable to say the least. Both starting corners have had a rough game(Hayden game 1 and Carrie game 2). Both starting safeties have been injured and the backups are both SS. Thorpe has solidly taken the #3 spot from McGill (who barely played in game 2) and had some good plays in the nickel on the outside with Hayden moving to the slot but he was also beaten twice and missed a tackle in run support.

Let's kick the tires and coach him up in our system before we label him is all I'm saying. This could be a steal.

[FNQ]

lol cmon. Sometimes a spade is a spade. He was punted from one of the worst secondaries in the league, had a college history of getting beaten over the top, which turned into an NFL history of getting beaten over the top.. he's here because of his physical tools, and the hope that guys like Woodson can coach him up into something productive. That he made it to a 1-1 team on waivers right now shows that he's a lotto ticket at best

[benchmobbin02]

You're right, sometimes a spade is a spade. Pretty sure I explained my reasoning for my OPINION that he "isn't good at all." And that, by the way, is the only thing that we seem to differ on.

We both have said he has the tools. Im backed up my statement with the reasoning for differing my opinion with yours by saying that that he could do with a change of scenery and that he may be a different player with a system and coaching that fit the style of play I believe he should be playing.

Is he a risk, yes. So you can call him a lotto ticket if you want but that still doesn't change that he was a multi year starting NFL corner. Meaning he beat out thousands of other guys for a one of 64 unique jobs in the world at the highest level. I'm not crazy to withhold labeling him as a bad player. Countless times a player has been miscast in a system and had breakout years or even just steady careers after moving to a place more suited to their physical abilities. I saying that could happen here, that's all.

If you go back to his draft profile it even states that he played zone in college and showed so good traits but and I quote

...Plays a lot of off-coverage and zone, needs experience in the man and press coverages in which he should excel given his physical ability.

source http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/david-amerson?id=2540170

He never got that experience at Washington because they don't play a man heavy system. He is about to get it here. So being in our man system will suit his skill set and physical ability with some coaching. Not mention the fact that he could be coming here to play FS along with rotational corner behind Thorpe and Mcgill. We waived Tevin McDonald, the only other FS on the active roster beside CWood.

If you wanna go on record saying he'll never be anything and we can't coach him up or he won't find new life here in a predominately man to man system then do it. I'm not willing to do that at this point. Kid is 23 he isn't 28 and set in what he will be. Reggie or JDR or KNJ has faith in him and so do I. I'm rooting for him in Silver and Black and think he will be a welcome surprise after some seasoning.

[benchmobbin02]

Btw, he is the second youngest member of our secondary after Keenan Lambert by 2 months.

[benchmobbin02]

Practice Squad and IR update

BOLD = waived from active roster, signed to PS
ITALIC= signed to PS after Sept 9th (start of season)

74 Bell, Mitch G 6-3 345 23 0 Louisiana Tech
16 Carter, DeAndre WR 5-8 188 22 R Sacramento State
30 Edwards, SaQwan DB 6-0 200 23 0 New Mexico
5 Gilbert, Garrett QB 6-4 221 24 1 Southern Methodist
75 Harris, Shelby DE 6-2 288 24 1 Illinois State
82 Holmes, Gabe TE 6-5 255 24 0 Purdue
40 Neal, Rajion RB 5-11 220 23 1 Tennessee
93 Orr, Leon DT 6-5 320 23 0 Florida
94 Valles, Max DE 6-5 251 21 R Virginia

*note - FS Tevin McDonald was waived to make room for David Amerson on the active roster and if he clears waivers, I suspect he will be the 10th member of the practice squad.

Guys waived from PS -
LB Josh Shirley
T Dan Kistler
RB George Atkinson III

Injured Reserve -
35 Chekwa, Chimdi CB 6-0 194 27 4 Ohio State
Debose, Andre WR 6-0 190 25 0 Florida
43 Hall, Jimmy LB 6-1 230 23 0 Northwestern
79 Morris, Anthony T 6-6 290 23 R Tennessee State
71 Watson, Menelik T 6-5 315 26 3 Florida State

Injured, Designated to Return -
Nate Allen

[FNQ]

We've played more zone than not through 2 games (lots of cover 3).. but if that's not a reason to switch to man coverage fast, I dont know what is. The only saving grace is that sometimes players like this do better when the game is in front of them. But I wouldn't expect a guy to learn a new position and then be thrust into the coverage he struggles with (zone).

But most scary is how a guy like him gets consistently beat over the top. Maybe facing up at the QB helps him, but currently there's been no indication that we're moving him to FS, yet. I'd also consider FS a position where we don't need an upgrade, since Woodson was switching sides on Sunday indicating that we have a FS/SS system now instead of the side-based safety we had with Allen. So if Amerson is Woody's backup.. OK, that's fine. I actually dont mind taking high potential players and putting them in backup situations to see if something clicks. But I gamble enough to know what long odds are, and they are extremely long if he's getting punted by WAS and making it to a 1-1 team on waivers

[FNQ]

I'm kinda bummed about Shirley, I liked him. Assume that Carter is here to be a return specialist, as GA3 was finally let go and we brought in an inside thumper in Neal. I thought he was a lock for GBs roster earlier this year

[benchmobbin02]

We've played more zone than not through 2 games (lots of cover 3).. but if that's not a reason to switch to man coverage fast, I dont know what is. The only saving grace is that sometimes players like this do better when the game is in front of them. But I wouldn't expect a guy to learn a new position and then be thrust into the coverage he struggles with (zone).

But most scary is how a guy like him gets consistently beat over the top. Maybe facing up at the QB helps him, but currently there's been no indication that we're moving him to FS, yet. I'd also consider FS a position where we don't need an upgrade, since Woodson was switching sides on Sunday indicating that we have a FS/SS system now instead of the side-based safety we had with Allen. So if Amerson is Woody's backup.. OK, that's fine. I actually dont mind taking high potential players and putting them in backup situations to see if something clicks. But I gamble enough to know what long odds are, and they are extremely long if he's getting punted by WAS and making it to a 1-1 team on waivers

We haven't played more zone than man in base sets. When we are forced to bring in the nickel we do run a cover 3 set but not more then we have the nickel or dime back back down in man coverage over his man in the slot.

The indication that he will play some FS is that we only have one on the roster (CWood)and the backup to the one (McDonald) was released. If like you said we have moved to FS/SS system then that would confirm that notion. Asante Lambert and Mays all have long histories of playing only SS. Asante can play FS in a pinch but it's not ideal and Lambert was brought here as a special teams guy, having only 1 snap on defense. So it lines up, FS CWood and Amerson, SS Mays and Asante. Im glad you don't mind but pretty sure Reggie didnt ask you anyhow haha, i kid i kid.

Your statement about getting waived by Washington and signed by a 1-1 team is hilarious. I already explained how Washington wasn't a good fit for his skill set and physical ability. And there are nine 2-0 teams and nine 0-2 teams and fourteen 1-1 teams at the moment. Putting any stock in a team record as to their overall rating at this time is asinine.

[benchmobbin02]

I'm kinda bummed about Shirley, I liked him. Assume that Carter is here to be a return specialist, as GA3 was finally let go and we brought in an inside thumper in Neal. I thought he was a lock for GBs roster earlier this year

Carter has show flash as a return guy but showed much more in the slot in preseason and college.

Neal is also far more than a inside thumper. Shows shades of McFadden with his burst to the edge and breakaway speed for his size. A step slower than DMC but in that sense mirrors how Murray plays with balance, quick feet in the hole and one cut and go ability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn9OCgeJX44

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn9OCgeJX44[/youtube]

[FNQ]

We haven't played more zone than man in base sets. When we are forced to bring in the nickel we do run a cover 3 set but not more then we have the nickel or dime back back down in man coverage over his man in the slot.

There's no question about this. Andy Benoit broke us down for week 1, and week 2 is coming tomorrow. We run more zone than man overall, and if Amerson is going to play FS, its irrelevant. If he's playing nickel back, OK, but I doubt he gets that job.

The indication that he will play some FS is that we only have one on the roster (CWood)and the backup to the one (McDonald) was released. If like you said we have moved to FS/SS system then that would confirm that notion. Asante Lambert and Mays all have long histories of playing only SS. Asante can play FS in a pinch but it's not ideal and Lambert was brought here as a special teams guy, having only 1 snap on defense. So it lines up, FS CWood and Amerson, SS Mays and Asante. Im glad you don't mind but pretty sure Reggie didnt ask you anyhow haha, i kid i kid.

I hope I never have to see Asante at free.. can see that getting ugly fast. It is lining up for someone to move from CB to FS, though McGill, Thorpe, and Hayden can be considerations as well.

Your statement about getting waived by Washington and signed by a 1-1 team is hilarious. I already explained how Washington wasn't a good fit for his skill set and physical ability. And there are nine 2-0 teams and nine 0-2 teams and fourteen 1-1 teams at the moment. Putting any stock in a team record as to their overall rating at this time is asinine.

lol you missed the point. I'm citing 1-1 for waiver purposes. There are teams with bad DB situations too and they weren't willing to cough up a roster spot either. Based on SOS and record, we would be in the mid-high teens as far as waiver position goes. So I'm saying at least half of the NFL also passed on this guy. But considering they spent a 2nd round pick on him, its a little damning that they released him 2 years after the fact. I'm pessimistic on him, but whatever, he has a chance to carve out a role

[benchmobbin02]

We haven't played more zone than man in base sets. When we are forced to bring in the nickel we do run a cover 3 set but not more then we have the nickel or dime back back down in man coverage over his man in the slot.

There's no question about this. Andy Benoit broke us down for week 1, and week 2 is coming tomorrow. We run more zone than man overall, and if Amerson is going to play FS, its irrelevant. If he's playing nickel back, OK, but I doubt he gets that job.

I broke down every defensive play.
Of the 75 defensive plays we ran, 25 were from the base set which is 3 DL 4LB 4DB. Of those 18 were man coverage by DBs and 7 were zone coverage.
49 plays were in the nickel set meaning 5DBs in with a combo of DL and LB. Of those 33 were man coverage and 16 were some form of zone.
We ran one play in the dime set with 6DBs in which was zone coverage. The last play of the game.

The indication that he will play some FS is that we only have one on the roster (CWood)and the backup to the one (McDonald) was released. If like you said we have moved to FS/SS system then that would confirm that notion. Asante Lambert and Mays all have long histories of playing only SS. Asante can play FS in a pinch but it's not ideal and Lambert was brought here as a special teams guy, having only 1 snap on defense. So it lines up, FS CWood and Amerson, SS Mays and Asante. Im glad you don't mind but pretty sure Reggie didnt ask you anyhow haha, i kid i kid.

I hope I never have to see Asante at free.. can see that getting ugly fast. It is lining up for someone to move from CB to FS, though McGill, Thorpe, and Hayden can be considerations as well.

With Carrie Hayden and Thorpe just now getting us to their roles as the starting corners the player to move to FS from CB will most likely be Amerson. McGill has a shot but doesn't have the experience Amerson has. Also in the second half when we subbed in for one of the 5 DBs in base nickel (Carrie Hayden Thorpe Mays or Cwood) Asante came in and played FS SS and Nickelback, McGill only in to sub for Hayden when he was cramping. So it's most likely Asante backing up CWood for the moment

Your statement about getting waived by Washington and signed by a 1-1 team is hilarious. I already explained how Washington wasn't a good fit for his skill set and physical ability. And there are nine 2-0 teams and nine 0-2 teams and fourteen 1-1 teams at the moment. Putting any stock in a team record as to their overall rating at this time is asinine.

lol you missed the point. I'm citing 1-1 for waiver purposes. There are teams with bad DB situations too and they weren't willing to cough up a roster spot either. Based on SOS and record, we would be in the mid-high teens as far as waiver position goes. So I'm saying at least half of the NFL also passed on this guy. But considering they spent a 2nd round pick on him, its a little damning that they released him 2 years after the fact. I'm pessimistic on him, but whatever, he has a chance to carve out a role

Once again, Washington releasing him is saying that he doesn't fit their system no matter how much they try to pound a round peg into a square hole. Whether you find that damning or not is what is irrelevant. He will get a chance to compete here for a spot because REGGIE and JDR and KNJ like him not based on what other teams need or will or will not do.

“He is athletic,” Raiders head coach Jack Del Rio said. “He’s got size, speed and athleticism that we covet. [We’ll] give him an opportunity to compete here. He’s got some starts in the league, so he has some experience. He’s still a young player. He has a chance to develop, so we’ll let him come in here and compete and determine a role through competition.”

[FNQ]

Yeah... I'll believe it when I see it from Andy Benoit.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Andy_Benoit/status/644639429613588480[/tweet]
^ this was in reference to Bengals game, FWIW. But..

First 3 drives from the stream I watch are very zone heavy, with the CBs covering the sides, LBs chopping up the middle, and the safeties taking deep sides, which is cover 2. If I'm mistaken, then we simply have the worst.cover.corners. in the league. And frankly, now that I see who was coaching the Redskins, us being zone heavy would be the best thing for him. Haslett loved outside blitzes and man coverage.. and Amerson was ranked 108th out 108 qualifying CBs last year per PFF.

BTW, it was Mike Mayock, who tends to be pretty accurate, who said this about Amerson: "He gave up more vertical touchdown passes than any corner I've ever seen in my life."

And for the 3rd time, hoping the point sticks now, many bad secondary having teams have passed on this guy in front of us, including Washington who had him for 2 ineffective years in 2 different schemes before cutting him for being awful, and its not like we have been stellar evaluating our DBs in the past. BTW, this whole forum is irrelevant to the Raiders. Shut it down?

[benchmobbin02]

Haha, yeah, well since I played corner for 6 year in high school and jr college, I know what it looks like when corners are playing zone coverage and when they are in man coverage. 2/3 of the time our corners matched up over the WR and followed the same WR regardless of what area of the field the route took them whether in the flat, across the middle or into the deep area of the field where a safety provided help.

Our LBs and/or high safety/ies can have zone responsibilities while our corners are playing man coverage. Happens all the time even in plays that are technically called cover 2 or zone blitz or 2 high or zone mid. In all of those plays there are assignments for the corners to play man coverage at times.

Why would we go out of our way to bring in big tall physical corners when we are gonna be playing zone coverage on the outside a majority of the time. We wouldn't. Real defenses aren't just lines on a madden playcall square. Guys are given specific assignments that change depending on matchup, personal, situation and objective. For the purpose of this discussion, I primarily focused on the left and right corner, the nickelback and the SS that would consistently be matched up with WR and TE and play them in man coverage for the most part. The #'s I gave are from watching those positions on every defensive snap of game 2 vs the Ravens and recording the results.

Yeah, I read that Mayock quote too. Yup it was taken from when he was a draft prospect and and not from the dumpster fire that was Jim Haslett's defense.

It is very well documented that he ran a overly complicated version of the 3-4 with zone coverage behind it to encourage turnovers. It was a train wreck for years with players not knowing their responsibilities or lining up wrong and blowing assignments. Jason Hatcher, Ryan Clark, and Ryan Kerrigan all went on record talking about how bad it was. Some reports were that Haslett would bring in a totally new defenses every week for different opponents. Kinda hard to develop players in an environment like that. Plus the fact that he was in a system that didn't fit his skill set and athletic traits. Jon Barry took over this year and he is a student of the Tampa 2, so a man corner wasn't gonna work in his system so they let Amerson go.

I'm not saying that he is a good corner in the league. What I'm saying is that we brought him in because he has the traits and skill set to fit our system and that hasn't been the case previously in his career. So the things that had him playing at a low level might be things that can be fixed or avoided with us. You can understand more what he was rated if the situation he was playing in was counter productive for him. It's very likely hurt his development and HOPEFULLY we can pick up a steal and develop him right.

[FNQ]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/648529831349518336[/tweet]

[FNQ]

Dion Bailey, replacement starting safety for the Seahawks, claimed by the 2-1 NYJ.

The reason I cite this is because they were *one* slot ahead of us on the waiver chart, and I thought we might kick the tires on him considering KNJ knows him from both Seahawks and USC.

*sigh* the problems of being a 2-1 team

[GoRapstheoriginal]

Er, why did we let James Jones go again? >><<
(Maybe it's just Rodgers making him look really good).

[benchmobbin02]

Er, why did we let James Jones go again? >><<
(Maybe it's just Rodgers making him look really good).

Because his 73 catches last year would be going to Cooper and Carr, we liked and wanted to develop the young guys: Holmes, Butler and Roberts and we saved 6.5 mil on the salary cap over 2 years with no dead money.

[benchmobbin02]

We cut Chidi Chekwa from IR this week. Sad to see him not live up to expectations. He had a good couple of years but not enough to stick with a team long term.

[benchmobbin02]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RAIDERS/status/649328114963607552[/tweet]

I wonder how this will affect the fronts we play and the success we had last game getting to the QB.

[FNQ]

If Jelly gets one man coverage, then he's usually good at pushing that man backwards and collapsing the pocket. Way better at planting himself in the ground and stuffing the run, but he's part of the embarrassment of riches we have re:interior run defense.