Clippers Acquire Lance Stephenson for Spencer Hawes and Matt Barnes

[nickhx2]

this is great! now all doc has to do is trade jj and jamal for j. r. smith and Brandon Jennings to have the gm triple double. to give up matt for this guy is horrible plus hawes to boot makes absolute no sense. there had to be a better way to create some financial help. odds of this guy changing are minimal at best. if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well you know what i'm saying. doc is going to blow whatever chance we had to get to the finals during the cp3 window of opportunity.

I am pretty anti-bad chemistry guys and i think you might be even more against them than me. But in a vacuum this trade is honestly really great, risk/reward wise and financially.

Doc basically showed he is clueless on how to integrate spencer hawes. He would likely have been dead weight next season, barring some genius epiphany coming from doc, and we know that's not happening. And as painful as it is to lose barnes (why oh why couldn't it have been crawford instead of barnes), at some point VERY soon he was gonna drop off the face of the cliff. We might have just gotten his last best year.

Stephenson fills some important roles for us and he can be very, very good for us if his head is right. From what i understand he'd been training pretty hard to try and make up for his crap play (it is technically a contract year for him), even before the trade was announced. I think he will bounce back and if his head is on right his contributions will far surpass hawes (who was giving us nothing anyway) and barnes (who will be declining hard).

You also get the distinct feeling that doc has a handshake deal with pierce already, because there is no way that charlotte doesn't ask for hawes/crawford before they ask for hawes/barnes, since crawford can actually (lol) help them. But my guess is doc is in talks with some other team who thinks they'd like to get jamal, he knows pierce is incoming, so he can trade jamal elsewhere while replacing barnes with pierce. Obviously just speculation on my part but i don't think it's unreasonable.

Anyway, money-wise it's pretty hard to beat, i just don't see what could be better. Lance is basically an expiring contract. We get out from under hawes's reasonable but too long contract for a 1 + 1 deal. The best part is it's a team option so if lance plays like a star, we immediately take the option. If he doesn't, oh well, good bye, lance and hello cap space. Money-wise to player reward-wise it's win-win.

Add that all together and it's pretty low risk, very high reward, very, very good for financials.

Anwyway, the bottom line is that, imo, this team was going to tread water if we went into next year without some kind of shakeup. And treading water with GS being as good as they are? Cleveland halfway to a ring with lebron with two stars returning? OKC is looking crazy scary next year with a real coach. Spurs are gonna reload with either LMA or marc gasol. We weren't gonna win anything anyway just standing pat, so why not take risks? In this era, if you're not getting better every year by a lot, you're just taking gigantic steps backwards while everyone else flies past you. The clippers need to swing for the fences. This has the potential to be game-changing. But if and ONLY IF doc follows through with everything else you need to do.

[Quake Griffin]

because he's what makes this team special on offense. look at this way: we were basically 1-2 legit bench players short of smoking houston and then going toe to toe with GS. there's no reason to mess with the things that are working right for us, just the stuff that's bad.

that said, if wilcox was training in a time chamber learning every ray allen/jj redick type move in the book, yeah absolutely you can trade JJ. or hell, keep him anyway and have non-stop ultimate offense for days.

i just think we step too far backward by trading JJ since, again, he's basically the perfect fit for our offense, doesn't bleed us on defense, has a reasonable contract, and there are no real alternatives. trading JJ is cool if you know wilcox is stepping up or ray allen can play for us like he's 33 again. but that's not happening and i don't know of anyone who can take jj's spot on the cheap.

Not sure what "special" means. Is that something we're calculating by a statistical measure? Didn't we have a great offense last year with him missing a good portion of the year?

I've seen enough of him to know he's not always going to be reliable in the playoffs. I've seen enough of him to know that a good enough wing (Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard) can chase him off of screens and turn him into a relative zero for a nice stretch of the game…he can't shake them (if I can quote OG from our last game against GSW).

I'd rather get better and more versatile on defense than have his dynamic on offense. I'm thinking Danny Green or a [healthy] Wes Matthews type of player when I mention that. Player who can shoot, albeit not being as great off the ball as JJ but can do much more on defense / give Paul breaks as he goes into his age 30/31 season.

I'm not saying sell him for spare parts. But I think we have a chance to use him in a deal to get better and I don't see why that option wouldn't be explored. He's not a sworn in superstar like a Dirk/ Wade/ Aaron Rodgers who can't be touched.

[QRich3]

I'd rather get better and more versatile on defense than have his dynamic on offense. I'm thinking Danny Green or a [healthy] Wes Matthews type of player when I mention that. Player who can shoot, albeit not being as great off the ball as JJ but can do much more on defense / give Paul breaks as he goes into his age 30/31 season.

I'm not saying sell him for spare parts. But I think we have a chance to use him in a deal to get better and I don't see why that option wouldn't be explored. He's not a sworn in superstar like a Dirk/ Wade/ Aaron Rodgers who can't be touched.

The thing with that is, who exactly are you getting in the Wes Matthews / Danny Green mold? it's easy to say, but they're pretty unique players that don't go cheap and I'm not sure JJ can fetch one of those by himself. There's less than a dozen wings in the NBA that can play upper tier defense like them and shoot a high % of 3PT on good volume. None of them are available for Redick.

If you can somehow get Batum in a 3 way trade or something, go for it. But there's gonna be teams offering more attractive stuff for the Blazers than Redick/Wilcox. If they even consider trading him, that is. Other than him I just don't see that type of player available anywhere (and he barely fits the description).

[nickhx2]

Well, i do say special both statistically but with the eye test. You are right that we were the top offense last year even with JJ missing games, but we also had a better bench. That said, when JJ came back it was pretty clear the offense went into much higher gear. I think we saw that consistently over the course of this season. We literally only need to replace crawford and add a semi-efficient big man/wing and we might have one of the best offenses of all time next season.

Anyway, even if his shots aren't falling, he is still a high impact player because of his gravity pull. There was a reason SA was at their best when they were hounding JJ with kawhi instead of putting him on cp3. It's true, he couldn't shake them very often but the times they gave him breathing room he helped break games open. I just don't see who is going to replace that. By putting some random schmo in there, our spacing goes to complete crap and it's already horrible with blake/DJ always in the middle.

What you seem to be asking for is a two-way shooting guard, or at least someone who can 3 and D. Unfortunately, with the warriors winning the NBA finals and the emergence of guys like klay thompson, khris middleton, demarre carroll, (danny green and wes matthews in previous years), the rest of the league is FINALLY going to realize that 2-way players who can do more than one thing are worth lots and lots and lots of millions. The guy you are thinking of has more value than JJ, so trading JJ for that guy is pretty much impossible. Middleton's gonna get the max. Carroll played himself into a 10-15m contact. Danny green's gonna get 10+, and matthews would get 10-15 too if he weren't coming off of an achilles injury.

For his cost, age, familiarity, fit, i'd say his value is higher with us than anywhere else. He is perfect for our team. You might not agree, but i think it's clear that he makes the offense special, or at least the starting unit. I also do know it's quantifiable (there was a stat someone posted a while ago showing the dropoff from replacing JJ with jamal crawford in the starting lineup), and i don't know how to find it, but it's there. His defense is good enough with us, and if you put him on another team he doesn't perform nearly as well. Replace him with danny green and i think our team isn't nearly as good since teams will start packing the paint with us. JJ's ability to keep everything spaced and breathing is crucial.

Sure maybe you can swindle some other team who thinks they can get the same out of him as they can with us (they won't), but again who can we trade him for? We don't have assets to roll him up into a better player. Austin rivers sucks. Wilcox is a non-entity. Jamal crawford sucks. Davis sucks. How exactly are we gonna trade JJ + suck into someone who even partially replaces what he does and helps us get better? I just don't see it. And if we break him down for other pieces, that's super risky because what you get back is unlikely to match what we lose from him.

Anyway, long story short, he does great things for us, plays good (or good enough) defense for us, his contract is pretty good, and i don't think we will get any of the right pieces if we trade him off. Trust me, if he were something that could command value, hell yeah i put him on the next bus out of here. I made a post recently in trades and transactions forums advocating for trading kyrie irving. And I would trade blake or DJ right here, right now if we could get the right pieces. But JJ is different cause i just do not think he nets high enough return to warrant trading him, whereas with superstar names you can get superstar ransoms.

[TheNewEra]

I can't see Lance working off the bench with Austin when signed. It's two guys who don't give you much shooting and both guys will be learning to run the offense. Rather have JJ spacing for Rivers and if PP is signed can control the drive,kick and ISO.

Rivers, JJ and Pierce can be our bench poor verizon of the Wizards Wall, Beal and Pierce. The all you need is two defense screen setting bigs.

[Clippers_FTW]

I want Lance starting:
Dream starting 5
Chris Paul
Lance Stephenson
Wilson Chandler
Blake Griffin
DeAndre Jordan

who would have a better starting 5?
If you wanna put your best defender on Chris Paul...
Lance or Wilson will kill their pointguard

[Clippers_FTW]

I'm no expert when it comes to contracts or the money involved.. but would we trade Jamal Crawoford 5.225 million for Wilson Chandler 7.4 million and use part of the mMLE to make it work? Wilson Chandler is our answer for Small Forward

[nickhx2]

I can't see Lance working off the bench with Austin when signed. It's two guys who don't give you much shooting and both guys will be learning to run the offense. Rather have JJ spacing for Rivers and if PP is signed can control the drive,kick and ISO.

Rivers, JJ and Pierce can be our bench poor verizon of the Wizards Wall, Beal and Pierce. The all you need is two defense screen setting bigs.

lance isn't a great shooter but if he can climb back up to his indy percentages, he'll be fine. austin could use a bit of work but honestly with a legit ballhandler getting him the ball he'll be just fine as a catch and shoot 3pt guy. i thought he shot fairly well in the playoffs. also, you do not want austin rivers trying to run the offense anyway. he just doesn't have the vision and he makes too many mistakes.

if lance plays point forward off the bench and the unit has some version of rivers/wilcox/lance then our shooting will be fine. furthermore, if we sign pierce and another SF (like dunleavy), we can start MD3 and have pierce play the backup 4. the shooting will go from decent-good-ish to really friggin good.

and there is no way that lance starts over JJ. he is not better than him and it just does not fit us to do that. starting lance ruins the value of the trade and devolves our bench again, because rivers is not a PG and forces him to play away from his strengths.

[nickhx2]

great article by seth partnow. might make people feel better about the trade if they've been cynical. i, myself, have been waffling. love lance, hate lance, love the trade, hate it, this article is worth the full read.

http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/06/16/stephenson-a-bold-but-necessary-gamble-for-doc-rivers/


some key snippets:

In short, the current roster wasn’t good enough, in spite of the star power of the first few names. The safer route may indeed have been to get the band back together and shoot for another season of mid 50s regular season wins and no real shot at postseason glory. But if there is a recognition that the championship window is right now and closing fast for the Paul-Griffin axis, safe isn’t tenable.

Of course, Stephenson’s time in Charlotte is a giant red flag, just as the constant unrest around his time in Indiana sounds several alarms. But once you’ve reached the conclusion that the team was short of championship level with no major moves, what’s the downside for the Clippers? Barnes, as mentioned, will be 36. While Hawes’s performance might rebound, he has exactly one half-season of even average play under his belt for a playoff caliber team, and that was four years ago in Philadelphia. In contrast, while Stephenson has a similarly only semi-proven his bona fides as an impact player, his upside is massively higher.

And if it all goes pear-shaped, L.A. walks away in a year, still better off than if they had made the trade, having cleared their cap sheet heading into next offseason for the start of the new media money bonanza, and having done so without further mortgaging future picks.

While Stephenson doesn’t come with any sort of guarantee, it’s simply hard to envision a better opportunity to add a young wing talent for little of present value, nothing of future value, and in fact to improve the teams’ flexibility and opportunity in offseasons to come. Most likely, this isn’t the move that pushes the Clippers over the top, but it gives them a better chance than they had previously, and for the cost one can’t ask for more.

[TucsonClip]

I'm no expert when it comes to contracts or the money involved.. but would we trade Jamal Crawoford 5.225 million for Wilson Chandler 7.4 million and use part of the mMLE to make it work? Wilson Chandler is our answer for Small Forward

No, you cant combine any exceptions. The taxpayer's MLE is only for signing players.

[nickhx2]

so, not sure anyone else heard the news, but gerald henderson opted in for 6m.

this is super important cause he might have been part of the deal all along, but both teams were waiting to see what he would do. if this is the case this means jamal/barnes/hawes for hendo/lance.

i guess we'll see what happens come official trade time, but that would make me SUPER happy.

[TucsonClip]

so, not sure anyone else heard the news, but gerald henderson opted in for 6m.

this is super important cause he might have been part of the deal all along, but both teams were waiting to see what he would do. if this is the case this means jamal/barnes/hawes for hendo/lance.

i guess we'll see what happens come official trade time, but that would make me SUPER happy.

I dont see any reason we would want to deal Crawford for Henderson after acquiring Lance.

[mattd13]

nick, I hope you are right and I am wrong. this thing just doesn't pass for me. history tells us this type of player usually keeps moving around and rarely sticks. I hope he makes a difference and Austin improves plus we get something for jamal. a lot of if's. I was hoping doc would go after a bigger 3 who could start, play solid defense, and rebound. I do not see pierce filling that role or us being able to get that player now. chemistry is a huge part of the journey with such a long season and sometimes that is overlooked. I would be very upset if jj would go. he brings a lot to the table for this team an is underrated in my opinion. doc would be a fool to do that.

[QRich3]

great article by seth partnow. might make people feel better about the trade if they've been cynical. i, myself, have been waffling. love lance, hate lance, love the trade, hate it, this article is worth the full read.

http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/06/16/stephenson-a-bold-but-necessary-gamble-for-doc-rivers/


some key snippets:

In short, the current roster wasn’t good enough, in spite of the star power of the first few names. The safer route may indeed have been to get the band back together and shoot for another season of mid 50s regular season wins and no real shot at postseason glory. But if there is a recognition that the championship window is right now and closing fast for the Paul-Griffin axis, safe isn’t tenable.

Problem with this line of thinking is it just assumes that any move you do is a good move. Yeah, we didn't have a lot of chances to go deep in the playoffs, that doesn't mean you have to make just any move and you'll improve. If you make a risky move like this that has a low chance to pan out, you are effectively lowering your chances even more. Yeah, there's some upside and whatever, but as basketball fans we should know already that swinging for players with a small chance at fulfilling that wild potential, usually ends up falling in the more probable downside.

so, not sure anyone else heard the news, but gerald henderson opted in for 6m.

this is super important cause he might have been part of the deal all along, but both teams were waiting to see what he would do. if this is the case this means jamal/barnes/hawes for hendo/lance.

i guess we'll see what happens come official trade time, but that would make me SUPER happy.

I dont see any reason we would want to deal Crawford for Henderson after acquiring Lance.

Yeah Stephenson is basically an uncontained version of Henderson, a SG who can't shoot but is an ok playmaker and average defender. Not much sense in adding another dude like that.

Most likely Doc is planning to offer Jamal and a future pick in a trade for a useful forward on draft night. I just hope he doesn't get bent over again and the pick is a very protected one for 2019 to 2021 that turns into a 2nd or something.

If that were to happen I like Wilson Chandler, Patrick Patterson, Marvin Williams and Coutney Lee, in that order. Birdman and Pachulia could make some sense if the price is cheap (a 2nd instead of a 1st), maybe Jason Thompson or Trevor Booker if we don't have to include a pick at all. Budinger, Humphries or Kaman would be the unexciting choices, but I'd still do it. If the Pacers are trying to shed salary Mahinmi would be a great choice.

[Clippers_FTW]

Post number 146 may actually happen.....???

[mkwest]

Live Introductory Press Conference

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[Quake Griffin]

"I'm here to win basketball."

[mkwest]

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[og15]

I'd rather get better and more versatile on defense than have his dynamic on offense. I'm thinking Danny Green or a [healthy] Wes Matthews type of player when I mention that. Player who can shoot, albeit not being as great off the ball as JJ but can do much more on defense / give Paul breaks as he goes into his age 30/31 season.

I'm not saying sell him for spare parts. But I think we have a chance to use him in a deal to get better and I don't see why that option wouldn't be explored. He's not a sworn in superstar like a Dirk/ Wade/ Aaron Rodgers who can't be touched.

The thing with that is, who exactly are you getting in the Wes Matthews / Danny Green mold? it's easy to say, but they're pretty unique players that don't go cheap and I'm not sure JJ can fetch one of those by himself. There's less than a dozen wings in the NBA that can play upper tier defense like them and shoot a high % of 3PT on good volume. None of them are available for Redick.

If you can somehow get Batum in a 3 way trade or something, go for it. But there's gonna be teams offering more attractive stuff for the Blazers than Redick/Wilcox. If they even consider trading him, that is. Other than him I just don't see that type of player available anywhere (and he barely fits the description).

Agreed. Unlike Crawford, the chances of getting a player that will give equal or greater value to this team for Redick is not very high. So trading him isn't likely to produce an improvement for the team.

If you're trading him, maybe won't be for a SG that can shoot very well and defend at a high level, but for a player at a different position to get similar value back. I suppose I could live with trading Redick for a nice 3rd big (really nice), but then you'd have to somehow get a guy like C.J. Miles back to help balance the roster and spacing, and that becomes hard.

Maybe if you really like Bradley, you could convince Boston on a Redick for Bradley trade as they weren't a very good shooting team, but I don't thin that is realistic, the Celtics know what they have, and at a good price. Bradley certainly is not an elite shooter, but his ability to pressure on defense and guard primary ball handlers ferociously would be welcome. Of course he's not a fan of guarding Redick though, lol.

[mkwest]

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