Will I get to see CJ Wilcox this year in a Clipper Uniform?

[QRich3]

Not what I meant at all, it's one thing to believe we can beat the Warriors in the playoffs, it's a whole different another that if we manage to get pass them in the 1st round, we'll take care of a more rested OKC and Spurs on the road after that. All for a very long shot at finding an undrafted gem or developing a late 1st round pick who hasn't shown anything. The 6ers and the Mavs find gems like Covington or Aminu because they have the playing time to spend on a few losses. Covington was on Houston before, and the Rockets didn't have patience with him, and he already showed a lot more promise there than Wilcox ever did here. The Heat only stumbled into Whiteside because they had a terrible team and no one else to play at C. If you wanna throw away Paul's last years for a small chance at finding a guy like that, who won't even put you over the hump unless he's surrounded by

If we had managed to have the assets to trade up for Stanley Johnson or Justise Winslow last summer, as a sort of Kawhi copycat, I'd have loved that and you can blame Doc for not working toward that possibility, I'll agree with you there. Even though Kawhi was still a long shot himself, who happened to work to perfection for the Spurs. But expecting Wilcox to become a miracle development is just wishful thinking and should not be used as a hard criticism.

Edit1- Doc already knows what line ups work better by the way, he's used the most effective combinations in the playoffs, as well as staggered our two franchise players with the bench more. I get that some times we wish Jamal didn't play at all, but realistically he was our 6th/7th best player by far last couple years, playing anyone else other than him wouldn't have helped as much as you can think at first if his replacement is Hedo or Danthay Jones. Plus, even the idea of staggering Paul and Blake with the bench is not as clear as we have been suggested, there's a case to be made that maybe that way you mitigate how bad the bench has been, but you don't maximize your best 5, and that's our best weapon.

Edit2- GS stumbled into Draymond Green because Lee got injured, I remember suggesting to Warriors fans that Green should start in place of him and they calling me clueless cause Lee was so valuable to their offense. And they stumbled into the Green at C line up during the Finals, and that's the main thing that's making them so unstoppable now.

[nickhx2]

Not what I meant at all, it's one thing to believe we can beat the Warriors in the playoffs, it's a whole different another that if we manage to get pass them in the 1st round, we'll take care of a more rested OKC and Spurs on the road after that. All for a very long shot at finding an undrafted gem or developing a late 1st round pick who hasn't shown anything. The 6ers and the Mavs find gems like Covington or Aminu because they have the playing time to spend on a few losses. Covington was on Houston before, and the Rockets didn't have patience with him, and he already showed a lot more promise there than Wilcox ever did here. The Heat only stumbled into Whiteside because they had a terrible team and no one else to play at C. If you wanna throw away Paul's last years for a small chance at finding a guy like that, who won't even put you over the hump unless he's surrounded by

If we had managed to have the assets to trade up for Stanley Johnson or Justise Winslow last summer, as a sort of Kawhi copycat, I'd have loved that and you can blame Doc for not working toward that possibility, I'll agree with you there. Even though Kawhi was still a long shot himself, who happened to work to perfection for the Spurs. But expecting Wilcox to become a miracle development is just wishful thinking and should not be used as a hard criticism.

Edit1- Doc already knows what line ups work better by the way, he's used the most effective combinations in the playoffs, as well as staggered our two franchise players with the bench more. I get that some times we wish Jamal didn't play at all, but realistically he was our 6th/7th best player by far last couple years, playing anyone else other than him wouldn't have helped as much as you can think at first if his replacement is Hedo or Danthay Jones. Plus, even the idea of staggering Paul and Blake with the bench is not as clear as we have been suggested, there's a case to be made that maybe that way you mitigate how bad the bench has been, but you don't maximize your best 5, and that's our best weapon.

Edit2- GS stumbled into Draymond Green because Lee got injured, I remember suggesting to Warriors fans that Green should start in place of him and they calling me clueless cause Lee was so valuable to their offense. And they stumbled into the Green at C line up during the Finals, and that's the main thing that's making them so unstoppable now.

Well, i think if you can beat a GS in round 1 i wouldn't be too afraid of okc/spurs, but it's never smart to overlook your opponent. In the current atmosphere i don't think it is throwing anything away by being a lower seed if you are a better team at the end of the day, had you tried more things to solve more issues.

That said i want to repeat that it's not for the sake of just finding a gem or developing a 1st rounder. I would be wanting doc to experiment in the RS so he could find the right lineups and get the right people acclimated so we could zoom into the playoffs with as much momentum as possible.

On wilcox: i am beginning to think you're mixing up my criticisms and wants with other people. I wouldn't really care if he didn't find the next kawhi or winslow (though how awesome would that have been). In fact i'd be the first to defend doc because we know he doesn't like playing rookies anyway so we'd have just wasted assets by going after a first rounder. I am not expecting wilcox to be some miracle or savior for the team. I just think he should be evaluated with real NBA action at some point because these other dudes either suck terribly or aren't getting burn anyway, and he has skills that the team can find use for. And if we're struggling now and trying to find the right pieces anyway then why not evaluate him? That's all it really boils down to.


I don't see at all how doc knows what lineups already work better just 13(?) games into the season when he hasn't given lance heavy backup minutes, wes heavy starter minutes, pierce only some spot starts, prigioni barely any burn and especially if crawford is still getting heavy minutes while shooting 40/30 or whatever trash he's putting up from the field. I'm gonna have to further disagree because we have yet to see a lineup where doc hasn't played crawford at ALL when it's clear he is just not contributing more than he's hurting. Or maybe i'm misunderstanding you by when you say that because tbh i haven't watched the past couple games, so if he's minimized the pierce/crawford tandem i'd be glad for him to start there. Regardless, what i am trying to say is i don't see how doc knows what lineups work better if they still involve crawford at such a high level of use, especially when he stays in for defensive possessions.

Also, RE: draymond green. I was actually going to mention it myself. I get your point but it goes both ways, too. Kerr could have easily let draymond continue coming off the bench but he wasn't afraid to swap his spots with lee, and i'd credit steve kerr for making the right coaching move there, even if it started off as an injury replacement. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but the times i've seen the bench play without crawford, i was pleasantly surprised and at this point i just don't see doc going back to it, or sticking to it if crawford were injured and returned, were that to ever happen.

[QRich3]

Well, i think if you can beat a GS in round 1 i wouldn't be too afraid of okc/spurs, but it's never smart to overlook your opponent. In the current atmosphere i don't think it is throwing anything away by being a lower seed if you are a better team at the end of the day, had you tried more things to solve more issues.

I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought here, we get the 8th seed but we're still the clear best team because we tried different line ups? I think one of the main reasons I disagree with a lot of your Doc criticisms is that you put way too much hope into what playing guys like Wesley Johnson and CJ Wilcox will do for you, or what not playing Jamal will. There might be some minor improvement, but that is not what's gonna put us over the top, I don't think Doc has to try to play Wes 38MPG to know what he's capable of, and I don't think there's any combination of wings in our roster that would surprise us with their performance. We don't have a Draymond Green, we did have Bledsoe but he's not here anymore. You put too much stock on a miracle happening and there's no miracle to come out of our roster.

[nickhx2]

Well, i think if you can beat a GS in round 1 i wouldn't be too afraid of okc/spurs, but it's never smart to overlook your opponent. In the current atmosphere i don't think it is throwing anything away by being a lower seed if you are a better team at the end of the day, had you tried more things to solve more issues.

I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought here, we get the 8th seed but we're still the clear best team because we tried different line ups? I think one of the main reasons I disagree with a lot of your Doc criticisms is that you put way too much hope into what playing guys like Wesley Johnson and CJ Wilcox will do for you, or what not playing Jamal will. There might be some minor improvement, but that is not what's gonna put us over the top, I don't think Doc has to try to play Wes 38MPG to know what he's capable of, and I don't think there's any combination of wings in our roster that would surprise us with their performance. We don't have a Draymond Green, we did have Bledsoe but he's not here anymore. You put too much stock on a miracle happening and there's no miracle to come out of our roster.

Well, the original thing i said i believe was i'd rather be an 8th seed if it meant we could be a better team than a higher seed and one that hadn't reached our full potential. Or at least that's what i thought i said, and if not that is what i want to say lol.

To go further in depth, i would rather have made sure we explored our full gamut of options in terms depth and lineups, even if it cost us some games in the short term or put us in the 8th seed. Contrast that to what we are currently doing with our current starting 4 + pierce and our second unit of smith/wes/craw/rivers/other, and hoping that they just get better over time. Because i think trying out what does and doesn't work right now will help us define roles, find out things that may or may not work, and explore our range of depth to see what potentially works and what doesn't. And that involves different starting lineups (wes as a starter would be nice but i'm reasonably sure doc will try it), and extended burn to guys who will give us some good things or those who might give us good things. How do you know what you could have had be effective for you if you weren't willing to try it?

As far as the other point, I don't think we are going to agree so we might as well just move on. I don't think that playing extra dudes is necessarily going to put us over the top. I absolutely do think it will make us better though, because as a corollary that means less jamal, which i expect would make us a lot better. Basically i'm contending it could a good to pretty good improvement, and while nothing's for sure at least you open up the possibility. Conversely, you are saying you don't think it will make as much difference as i expect it to be, if i am reading you right, but keep in mind i'm not looking for saviors. Anyway, I simply don't think we will find a way to agree there, and that's ok. Like if playing wes 40 minutes and jamal 16 is somehow not substantially better than jamal 40 and wes 16 in the GS game, then i am missing something big or i might be the dumbest basketball fan on the planet.

That said, I want to make sure you understand that i get your other point though, that there are definitely other issues with the team we need to solve as well. Brief list of things off top of my head:

- smith needs to stop sucking on offense and find a way to be more involved on defense
- austin needs to stop sucking on offense and learn to hit some ft's
- pierce needs doc to be better with him and recognize when he's off his game (ok that's more on doc)
- cp3 needs to get up to speed (injuries and such but i'm not worried about this too much)
- dj needs to get A LOT freaking better on both sides. he just seems not even close to what he was last year and i think it's hurting us a lot more than many people realize.
- blake is a god but i think he's been hurt past couple games
- lance needs to figure himself out but doc needs to help him more than he is, imo
- jj, you ok
- doc, jamal: well you guys know what i think

Anyway, lots of issues overall, so I completely agree with that. I just see the rotation thing as the first and biggest step atm. I just want doc to start with what i feel like is something that everyone seems to agree with and what i think plays a part in some of our other issues. For sure no one knows how much better that will make us, but i would like doc to explore that rather than standing pat. FWIW I'm cognizant that my arguments and complaining are a lot more (almost entirely?) focused on the doc/jamal thing than other things, so i think it might be easy to assume that i think there aren't other issues we have to worry about. It's not true, i just think the doc/jamal/rotation thing is the first/biggest step and then by the time i'm done complaining about that stuff i don't have energy to post about other things. But yeah, we got lots of worries atm.

Btw, I feel it's either that we won't be able to agree on that point or we are not communicating effectively enough to see what we are actually arguing. I feel like you are interpreting me as saying that a wes johnson or cj wilcox will become a superhero and save us and lead us to the promised land. This is not what i'm saying though. I believe in step by step processes and i don't really hope for saviors, though that would be pretty cool were it to happen. I think that giving other guys more minutes is a logical step-by-step process because that is just a standard thing to do in sports: if the guy on the court/field/whatever is not playing well, try out the next one. If you really tweaked my inner thoughts though i'd say that replacing crawford with a net neutral guy is making that guy a savior in itself.


TLDR: step 1: stop playing jamal so much. step 2: fix other things which are also important

[QRich3]

I am not disagreeing with you that I would play Wes over Jamal more time. I definitely think that can help the team, and Doc should do it. But what I'm saying is maybe he's not much more than that neutral guy, if he is. I think you're overstating his potential impact by seeing that Wes does ok in spot minutes and you're projecting it to a big minutes role, and it will just not work the same way. There's a reason Wes could be had for the minimum, he has never been on a team that won 30 games and even still he's never been able to crack the starting 5 full time, losing his place to guys like Wayne Ellington, Ryan Kelly, Kent Bazemore, etc. That's because he's inconsistent and has a history of making too many mistakes in a expanded role. Again, Doc doesn't really need to try every possible combination cause he watches every practice and knows his guys better than us. He just won a series against the Spurs with peak-fat Big Baby and sleeved-Hedo as his 8th and 9th players. He's earned some leeway as a coach to me.

Also, Doc is actually experimenting a lot with line ups, for him at least. He's tried 3 different starting SF's already, and yeah, he overplays Jamal and probably Austin, but I don't have an issue with him playing Pierce a lot. He needs to get acclimated cause he's the only chance we have of a 3 that can make a difference in the post season.

PS- you missed Luc on your list of things going bad, I used to idolize the guy and now he just looks like a slow footed hack, fouling everything around him, and clumsily turning over even the simplest passes

[nickhx2]

I am not disagreeing with you that I would play Wes over Jamal more time. I definitely think that can help the team, and Doc should do it. But what I'm saying is maybe he's not much more than that neutral guy, if he is. I think you're overstating his potential impact by seeing that Wes does ok in spot minutes and you're projecting it to a big minutes role, and it will just not work the same way. There's a reason Wes could be had for the minimum, he has never been on a team that won 30 games and even still he's never been able to crack the starting 5 full time, losing his place to guys like Wayne Ellington, Ryan Kelly, Kent Bazemore, etc. That's because he's inconsistent and has a history of making too many mistakes in a expanded role. Again, Doc doesn't really need to try every possible combination cause he watches every practice and knows his guys better than us. He just won a series against the Spurs with peak-fat Big Baby and sleeved-Hedo as his 8th and 9th players. He's earned some leeway as a coach to me.

Also, Doc is actually experimenting a lot with line ups, for him at least. He's tried 3 different starting SF's already, and yeah, he overplays Jamal and probably Austin, but I don't have an issue with him playing Pierce a lot. He needs to get acclimated cause he's the only chance we have of a 3 that can make a difference in the post season.

PS- you missed Luc on your list of things going bad, I used to idolize the guy and now he just looks like a slow footed hack, fouling everything around him, and clumsily turning over even the simplest passes

Yeah, i know you're not disagreeing with me that it would be better. You think i'm overstating the potential impact, i get that. I wanna reiterate i just think we should open the doors for said potential impact, cause it could be pretty good and at the very least it'll be better than what we have now. As it stands, the minute distribution is preventing that. That's all.

I agree i don't have an issue with playing pierce a lot cause i'd like to see what he can do myself. Right now it's clear though he is not doing too well, though.

And yeah totally there's more going on than just what i listed, those were just things i could think of machine gunning it. I was just thinking of making a "what the fk, dj" thread, because seriously. He needs to be a lot better for us to get back to normalcy and he often just looks invisible when he needs to be elite. To me it's the biggest issue on the team besides what we've been discussing above, i'm just too out of words at this point to put my concerns into print lol.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DanWoikeSports/status/671514060727312384[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

YES!

I'm watching a guy named Ian Clark hit 4/4 3 pointers for the Warriors.
DAFUQ?

I WANNA SEE IF THIS KID SUCKS OR NOT DAMMIT!
please allow me to.

[mkwest]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DanWoikeSports/status/671514060727312384[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AmicoHoops/status/671443340051660800[/tweet]

Could it be a coincidence or something more?

CP3, BG, JJ, JC, Dawson, Wilcox and Stephenson are available now. DJ is available for trade on January 15th. Mbah A Moute on the 24th of December. Everyone else is available on the 15th of December.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DanWoikeSports/status/671514060727312384[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AmicoHoops/status/671443340051660800[/tweet]

Could it be a coincidence or something more?

CP3, BG, JJ, JC, Dawson, Wilcox and Stephenson are available now. DJ is available for trade on January 15th. Mbah A Moute on the 24th of December. Everyone else is available on the 15th of December.

I thought the same thing when I updated my post in the Trade Idea Thread, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions too quickly. Given Doc's reluctance to play the youngins and Amico's tweet confirming Thorpe's report on TrueHoop TV, it would make sense that a deal is about to happen or an injury occurred, but we haven't heard anything in the works and I haven't come across any names being leaked in trade proposals.

[Ranma]

[tweet]thttps://twitter.com/DanWoikeSports/status/677274770879045632[/tweet]

[og15]

Well at the just based on his D-league past, Dawson looks nowhere ready for the big league.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Chris_Reichert/status/677745489333248000[/tweet]

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Chris_Reichert/status/679856715878150145[/tweet]

[Wammy Giveaway]

Wilcox's point guard, or the guy setting him up, is 2013 FIBA gold medalist Jorge Gutierrez of Mexico national basketball team. Being a Mexican-American/Chicano, I gotta give him props. Hope he gets another NBA call.

[Ranma]

Interesting to see Dawson getting the call to return to the Clippers instead of Wilcox who seems to be making progress with his offensive production.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/clipperblog/status/680121571760050176[/tweet]

[TucsonClip]

Wilcox is trade bait and thats about it. No reason to bring him up to the squad if he isnt going to see minutes and im not banking on a 25 year old SG to turn into something he isnt. He's a shooter and thats about it, one who hasnt been able to do much else at an NBA level.

[LACtdom]

Wilcox is trade bait and thats about it. No reason to bring him up to the squad if he isnt going to see minutes and im not banking on a 25 year old SG to turn into something he isnt. He's a shooter and thats about it, one who hasnt been able to do much else at an NBA level.

I was surprised / impressed with his confidence when it comes to driving to the basket and handling the ball during his brief NBA stint. I'm not convinced this is the best he could ever be and not worth a chance.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RowanKavner/status/680927276762968064[/tweet]

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/greensboroswarm/status/681989486381809664[/tweet]