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Elephant In the Room - KB

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Post#41 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:50 pm by curryshimmy

Not a Laker fan here warning!

I really respect the OP here. I came over to the Laker forum to see if any of you Laker fans could see the root of this teams problem the last couple seasons. With all due respect it's Kobe. He and you can blame Pau all u want but it's him. He doesn't like to pass.

signing D'antoni was also a head scratcher to me, as was hiring Mike Brown in the first place.

But don't worry guys u will always go buy someone else. It will turn around for u!
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Post#42 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:59 pm by curryshimmy

also with all due respect and out of curiousity: why are so many of you obsessed with using the term "Alpha Dog" when describing Kobe? Is this some kind of LA radio thing?

without making a mockery of my team and telling me that the Warriors(14 and 7) have no "ALPHA", please answer respectfully like I know u Laker fans can

also i would cheer up guys. pretty easy schedule up ahead: cavs, bobcats and wizards all coming up soon. I do want to see u guys sneak into playoffs as long as it doesn't take a spot away from my team.
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Post#43 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:46 pm by Doormatt

"alpha dog" is not a term that is unique to LA sports, i dont know why you would think it is. unless this is your first year following sports, in general, its a popular term used by people in the industry/media, but it really means nothing. its mostly used to described the best player on a team, often someone with a dominant attitude.

and to honestly suggest that the problem with this team is its best player, is pretty stupid. the problems with this team are not pau gasol and kobe bryant, but they are often the scape goats when things go bad.
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Post#44 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:36 pm by ennui

curryshimmy wrote:also with all due respect and out of curiousity: why are so many of you obsessed with using the term "Alpha Dog" when describing Kobe? Is this some kind of LA radio thing?

without making a mockery of my team and telling me that the Warriors(14 and 7) have no "ALPHA", please answer respectfully like I know u Laker fans can

also i would cheer up guys. pretty easy schedule up ahead: cavs, bobcats and wizards all coming up soon. I do want to see u guys sneak into playoffs as long as it doesn't take a spot away from my team.


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Post#45 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:06 pm by ponder276

I think the OP has a point. Don't get me wrong, Kobe is a PHENOMENAL player, one of the greatest guards of all time. He is, however, also a player who really looks for his own shot first, who isn't tolerant of mistakes/misses by team mates, who is very prone to doing whatever he wants and ignoring the game plan. On most teams, guys like Gasol, Dwight and even Jamison could play through their mistakes, and be focal points in the offence. They could give up the ball knowing that they'd get it back, they could be heavily involved in the game and could patiently find their offence. This isn't the case on a Kobe team. Kobe's team mates need to do what they can with limited touches/shots, if they have a bad start to the game they know they won't be allowed to work through it, and if they give up the ball on a play they know they probably aren't getting it back.

Basically, stars are turned into role players when they play with Kobe. With some team compositions, this is fine. With the current composition, it doesn't seem to be working so well. Kobe has been the top performer on the team by far, but the team has still sucked despite being stacked. If you took out Kobe, and replaced him with an inferior SG like Manu or Redick, would the team be better or worse? I think they'd actually be better, not because these guys are close to as good as Kobe, but because other players (like Gasol, Dwight and Jamison) would really be allowed to shine.

I do think Steve Nash coming back could be HUGE for this team, assuming he's healthy and playing at something near his 2011/12 level. With Nash as the distributor, guys will get their touches when they should, and Kobe will be more of a scorer than a point guard. Everything should run more smoothly. But until Nash does come back, I think the rest of the team will struggle to be effective with everything running through Kobe.
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Post#46 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:18 pm by Doormatt

im pretty sure if you replaced kobe bryant with jj reddick this team would be without a doubt the worst in the league. manu is a different story since hes on an entirely different plain than reddick but we'd still be awful since manu can only manage 25mpg this year as opposed to kobe whos almost loggin 39 minutes a night.


again, for like the billionth time, kobe shooting the ball IS NOT the problem. the problem is that we turn the ball over and cant even get our bigs touches because if kobe isnt creating offense for himself or for others, the chances of a bad play happening in someone elses hands is ridiculously high. its magnified because the only person who can produce good offense right now is kobe and occasionally dwight. but in reality this is not kobes fault, he is not lebron james, he is not chris paul, he is not a player who continuously makes plays for others to generate great offense. thats NEVER who hes been. so to blame kobe for doing what hes been doing his whole career, and been quite successful at, is pretty dumb. the problem is that this team is just awful right now. people think that just because we have dwight and kobe that we are automatically good, its just not that simple, basketball is not that simple.
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Post#47 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 pm by PandGneverfold

When are lakers fans going to stop falling for the troll bait. Stevie wonder could see kobe is not the reason we are losing. Butt hurt shaq fans or undercover fans from other teams love to come here just to stir stuff up. The problem aint kobe.
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Post#48 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm by Doormatt

not everyone is trolling when they say that. clearly you havent been on this board long enough to realize that people truly do believe kobe's shooting or whatever is the prime reason we lose or underachieve. there are people who genuinely believe that, or at least something along those lines.
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Post#49 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 pm by PandGneverfold

Has kobe's shooting been a problem in the past? Yes ,but I refuse to believe that there are people out there lame enough to put this on him.
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Post#50 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:24 pm by Doormatt

lol of course they exist.
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Post#51 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:09 am by leeprettyp

People basketball IQ is low as hell. And they'll never get it. The guy leaves it on the court every night, even when he's hurt. This kinda thread is what u get when u dont understand basketball. Been a Laker fans since the 80's and I'm telling you people gonna realize not mistake of not appreciating this guy when he's gone. The guy says its all Kobe fault and his selfish but has a picture of Nick Van Exel up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . All I can say to that is on 3.....1.... 2...... 3.... "CANCUNNNNNNN". Now thats a selfish player (even tho I loved him when he first got here)
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Post#52 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:00 pm by 4real

CharlieMurphy wrote:interesting stat: the Lakers are 2-7 when Dwight Howard turns the ball over 4 or more times.

If Dwight would just stop being so ball dominant we could win more games. Why does Dwight think that hero ball will work?

But seriously, here's an actual fun fact: Dwight is right at his career average of FGA, you know the career he built that made you all salivate about him being here. (Also, Ryan Anderson took more shots than Dwight last year :o, right?)

I wonder how Kobe is going to make Dwight take more shots than he ever did/wanted to while being the "number one option" in Orlando.

We all just really need to face facts: Dwight is not Shaq. He's not going to be a player that will average 20 shots a game even if we gave him the ball every time down the court. Furthermore, if we did give him the ball every time down the court, he still wouldn't average 20 FGA because he would get fouled. (Which brings me to another way he's different from Shaq: he's actually a worse FT shooter than Shaq. Crazy right?)

Think about this: Dwight averages 11.4 FGA this year and 10.5 FTA, so that's basically 16 shots/game. Shaq (during our championship years with him) averaged 19.5 FGA and 11.4FTA, that's basically 25 shots/game. (Of course that all doesn't take into account hack-a-shaq or hack-a-dwight, but it's still a good indication of how often they at least threw the ball at the basket in the attempt of a shot) But literally Shaq shot the ball almost 10 more times a game than Dwight does now. Or ever will for that matter, because Dwight's career high in FGA is 13.4.

Haven't you guys wondered why Dwight's always asking for lobs instead of entry passes? He can't score consistently with his back to the basket, plus if you lob it to him he's less likely to get fouled and be forced go to the place where he knows he's bound to fail.

The real elephant in the room is that Kobe can't play defense because he has to score the points that you all foolishly expected to come from Dwight as a product of some magical Shaq seance that would transform him into a player who makes 60% of his fts and also averages 20 FGA.

It's not going to happen. So either Dwight has to make more of his FTs so that Kobe doesn't have to score points to make up for the disparity, or the points are going to have to come from elsewhere. If the points aren't coming you can damn sure expect Kobe to do whatever he has to do to score, which is something we should all be thankful for.

Finally someone who understands basketball. Kobe is not the problem, false expectations of Howard is the problem. Dwight can only play one way. If you listen to his press conferences, you'll hear him saying how the team needs to play for him to be successful (basically Van Gundy's game plan). Kobe either has to commit to Dwight being the first option, or Lakers need to trade Dwight for Varejao.
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Post#53 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:31 pm by dockingsched

posted this before i think but i'll post it again. this 1-10 stat when kobe scores more than 30 i think is something worth looking at, but its not something that should be used to blame kobe.

to me, this stat shows me that the lakers have to play as a team. they're only going to win if they all show up. the stat tells me that even kobe can't carry the entire team if they aren't carrying their own weight. it tells me that kobe shouldn't feel like its in the teams best interest for him to try to carry the load.

depending on your POV, it tells me that kobe should allow/force his teammates to carry their weight, and even if they lose, doing so gave them their best chance to win.
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Post#54 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:28 pm by Sedale Threatt

Here is some context for that stat. Our records during the last two championship seasons when Bryant scored 30 or more points.

2008-09: 31-11, including 3-1 in the Finals
2009-10: 29-14

So it seems pretty obvious to me what's going on there. And I know you're not harping on that dock -- you raise some good points -- I'm just throwing it out there for contemplation.

It's the same chicken/egg debate that's been going on pretty much since he became a starter. There have obviously been countless games that Kobe has shot us out of over the years, and countless others where he's won them.

Personally, I've never been a huge fan of his style. Give me Magic or give me death. But with so many other issues going on with this steam, health being No. 1 with a bullet, some of the blame Bryant is getting doesn't make sense to me.
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Post#55 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:27 pm by Kilroy

Kobe, hero ball bores me. I've never been a fan, and there were plenty of times when I thought the Kobe shooting too much=lakers losses theory meant something...

And obviously, I think if he comes in and dominates the ball for 4 quarters, we're in trouble no matter what shooting percentage he ends up with...

But aside from maybe a couple games... Maybe the 2 before he broke 30k and a game or 2 under Brown, I don't see that from him this season.

It seems to me more like he's trying to shoot us back into games after we've already basically lost them.

If Kobe's the only able to get any offense going, how is telling him to pass more help us?
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Post#56 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:35 pm by Sedale Threatt

Kilroy wrote:Kobe, hero ball bores me. I've never been a fan, and there were plenty of times when I thought the Kobe shooting too much=lakers losses theory meant something...

And obviously, I think if he comes in and dominates the ball for 4 quarters, we're in trouble no matter what shooting percentage he ends up with...

But aside from maybe a couple games... Maybe the 2 before he broke 30k and a game or 2 under Brown, I don't see that from him this season.

It seems to me more like he's trying to shoot us back into games after we've already basically lost them.

If Kobe's the only able to get any offense going, how is telling him to pass more help us?


Couldn't agree more. I can't even count how many times over the years he's made some miraculous shot and my first reaction is, "What a crappy decision." Thousands.

I hated Jordan when he was playing, and I've always considered it some kind of sick joke that the torch bearer for my favorite team was his clone, diluted by Allen Iverson.

I just don't understand how he's seriously being expected to throttle back in order to get more out of some of the crap we're throwing out there with two of our four best players on the sideline.
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Post#57 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:12 pm by Effigy

Didn't the elephant leave last year when you traded her husband to Dallas?
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Post#58 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:40 pm by LAKESHOW

I personally think its a byproduct of the offense. Isnt DAntonis offensive system a "GREEN LIGHT" system? Where you virtually have the green light no matter where you are at and whenever you get the rock? Just go-go-go!

So if Kobe is shooting alot, hes definitely not going to stop if the coach preaches it. And if its a part of the style or system of play.
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Post#59 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:31 pm by supaflash

It's not really, it's a byproduct of injuries and depth. Dwight doesn't command doubles or get consistently deep position either right now.

I said this in another thread, Mello has a higher USG%, shoots more shots, less efficiently, with less assists and yet he doesn't take his teammates out of rhythm, they are not losing ball games...

I will say this though, Kobe's scoring and efficiency doesn't draw as much attention this year, teams aren't scared of it and he can't quite dominate like he did in 05-06, especially down the stretches. That alters how the defenses are approaching us.

It reminds me a bit of Duncan a bit ago where he was near his same stats and efficiency but people were saying he was doing it all 1v1, not drawing doubles etc.
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Post#60 Re: Elephant In the Room - KB
Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:07 am by madmaxmedia

LAKESHOW wrote:I personally think its a byproduct of the offense. Isnt DAntonis offensive system a "GREEN LIGHT" system? Where you virtually have the green light no matter where you are at and whenever you get the rock? Just go-go-go!

So if Kobe is shooting alot, hes definitely not going to stop if the coach preaches it. And if its a part of the style or system of play.


D'Antoni preaches taking open shots, otherwise moving the ball around to generate open shots. Not just shooting it whenever you want.

If in a hypothetical game, Kobe was doing hero ball iso's on every possession while everyone else stood around, holding the ball for 15 seconds and then taking a contested shot, then no that's not what D'Antoni wants or encourages (again that is strictly a hypothetical, not saying it is happening.)

OTOH, if the Lakers are moving the ball around, players are active, and Kobe happens to get 50 good scoring opportunities in a game, D'Antoni would likely be cool with Kobe taking 50 shots (because with 50 good open looks Kobe could probably drop 80 points.)
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