yardbarker

What Exactly Is The Issue?

Moderators: Slava, Kilroy, crazyeights, TyCobb, Danny Darko

Post#76 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:25 am by Speedlot

I don't get why people are blaming kobe's offense. That's the dumbest thing I've heard of so far this season. His defense is full of fail though. And that's where it stands to be honest. I don't blame kobe's defense for the team sucking though. Cus there are bigger things. But sure, if Kobe could improve then yeah. His defense sucks, must get better. As for Gasol to improve... A book can be written about that. And the blame should really be shifted to Howard more. His defense is a godsend sure, compared to bynum. But really he doesn't fit at all in the offense right now. And he seem to forgot how to play a double team like bynum last year.
Speedlot



Assistant Coach
User avatar
Posts: 4,212
And1: 94
Joined: Jan 1, 2007
Top

Post#77 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:33 am by classic_magic

atleat he is honest
kobe and gasol both are old and dhoward cant run like before
so they should not play this way and its big mistake they hired mike
other old teams they dont run too much and they give rest to the players
we like it or not but the team is going no where with this style
There's some folks, that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
classic_magic

Sophomore
Posts: 158
And1: 0
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Location: Dubai
Top

Post#78 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:44 am by JustAwesome

PandGneverfold wrote:People make me laugh. We call our players old and slow but when Kobe does it he's wrong. Smh


Bryant has more of an audience than we do.
JustAwesome
Analyst
User avatar
Posts: 3,712
And1: 77
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Top

Post#79 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:49 am by GeneralNash

I just wonder if his leadership style is doing more damage than good. It is good to see he wants to push Dwight to the next level:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zjxD3MJI61Y[/youtube]

Average Celtics during their 2008 championship run were older than this team, and they were not being called old and slow....they were probably remembered as being tough, and passionate. Lakers identity is quickly becoming "old and slow" and that is not a good thing.

The reality is they don't seem to have the passion to win. That is why when they come out in the 1st quarter a lot of times this season, they get off to slow starts.
GeneralNash
Banned User
Posts: 666
And1: 13
Joined: Dec 23, 2012
Top

Post#80 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:14 am by laduane1

No team wants Pau's over paid contract. Maybe a year from now. No team wants to help the Lakers. No teams are that stupid...Again.
laduane1
Starter
Posts: 2,067
And1: 14
Joined: Jul 4, 2008
Top

Post#81 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:17 am by Dr Aki

reading this thread...

EVERYTHING IS WRONG!!!
ImageImage
Dr Aki




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 17,719
And1: 1,488
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Top

Post#82 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:20 am by laduane1

I fell asleep reading the opening post. Get to the point. We do not need to read 1,000 words.
laduane1
Starter
Posts: 2,067
And1: 14
Joined: Jul 4, 2008
Top

Post#83 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:24 am by Mamba Venom

crazyeights wrote:For a supposed Laker fan you sure don't get Kobe's tone.

He's not even being negative or angry, instead he's pointing out a fact and saying the team has to overcome it.

http://youtu.be/5QpUmBc6sSQ


Reading the article and watching the video are 2 COMPLETELY different stories.

Old as sh-- was obviously a joke. There is no Kobe death stare or anger. He is smiling and explaining what happened. I screamed at the TV when I saw how slow Gasol closed out after Kobe hit the 3 and we were down 97-99. That was the ball game.

ESPN didn't have a vid of Kobe PROFANITY LACED RANT, instead they made it sound like a kid throwing a tantrum and made it sound serious like Kobe was death staring. Awful journalism.
Lakers are 22-3 in OT last 6 seasons:Kobe best OT closer!
Mamba Venom
RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 17,609
And1: 585
Joined: Sep 7, 2005
Location: California
Top

Post#84 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:25 am by Fischella

The main issue is the roster, it was made for the money, the advertisement and the tv, not for a championship.

I don't know if Mitch built it that way on purpose, or it's Jim Buss stuff, but the moves made in the summer were awful.

Howard move was great but the rest... mother of god, everyone that know a little bit about the game knew in the summer that it couldnt work, there is no idea of game, no identity, nothing would fit.

The roster needs major changes if the Lakers want to compete.
Fischella





Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,932
And1: 429
Joined: Feb 11, 2012
Top

Post#85 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:26 am by Jakay

Oh, Nash isn't even playing his game yet, Kobe doesn't quite trust his teammates yet, Pau is older, and Dwight has definitely not found his full game yet.

Don't panic. They will put this together. They will make the playoffs. They will be a team to fear when they do. They are possibly the most remade team this season, and it hasn't clicked as fast as everyone would like, but that's not exactly the end of the world.

That said, they'd better shore up that D if they're going to survive in the playoffs. You can see they're not on the same page at all. No feel for each other yet. Dwight and Pau aren't on the same page yet, Nash and Kobe either. It's not just Pau is slow, it's also that no one quite knows who can cover what yet, and it's obvious.
Jakay
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 24,375
And1: 888
Joined: Jan 26, 2003
Location: the Ether
Top

Post#86 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:57 am by EnigmaticProblem

Browsing through this thread, I've seen "age" be brought up quite a bit. I don't buy age to be an appropriate excuse. The Mavericks team that won the championship had an average age of approximately 31 years old. Those 2008 Celtics were a rather old bunch, as well. James Posey, P.J. Brown and Sam Cassell all had significant minutes on that squad; of their big three, Pierce was the youngest at 30. The 2007 Spurs had a majority of their players at 30+ years old. I could be wrong about this, but I think the 1998 Bulls were the oldest champions, ever.

Look at what the Knicks have accomplished so far, this year. The team that wins the champion is the team that maximizes its resources while appropriately marginalizing their weaknesses; the exception to this rule is the 2006 Heat team, who had a lot of help from the Zebra Gang. However, I digress. This team needs to play at a much slower, calculated pace. Two cardinal predicaments with this system, without authoring a weighty tome, are:
1. Far too many threes. Quick three-pointers, early in the shot clock, lead to long rebounds, which lead to fast breaks. Anyone who has played basketball at 'just' the highschool level knows this. If we make an effort to gets things going at the rim, whether through drives, or post ups, we'll give ourselves an opportunity to a) get to the foul line, and b) get back on defense, even if it a 'point-less' offensive trip.
2. Every player has a great deal of offensive freedom. I don't want to see Metta getting more shots than Dwight Howard, or Pau Gasol (despite his poor play). I don't want to see Metta awkwardly dribble into the paint, with his absurdly underdeveloped handle, only to create a turnover or throw up an ill-advised shot. I don't want to see Jodie Meeks try to get into the paint, either. Players need roles, and on the offensive end, all the players on this team are designated "scorers" (aside from Jordan Hill, who puts in work to rebound the ball). I don't want to see anyone defend Metta, either. I think he has great value on the defensive end, but he really needs to shoot the ball at a lower rate; I think his noteworthy shooting, thus far, has been an anomaly, and he'll go back to shooting at the substandard percentage he has throughout his entire career. I mean, he's 2/14 from beyond the arc in his last three games.

richboy wrote:Pau isn't the issue in my books because I fully expect when he is traded that he go to another team and put up 18 and 11 and 4 assist and suddenly be the same player we saw in the past. Kobe said it. After winning the title this team decided Bynum was the go to post guy and it hasn't been the same since for Pau. I don't think there anything physically different from Pau Game 7 in the finals to now. What is difference is instead of getting 25 touches in the post he is getting under 10. Some games under 5. You can call it an excuse but things like shooting were just the icing on Gasol's game. Icing is good with the cake. You can't just serve Icing. Gasol and Dwight can not establish any rhythm. They get a touch here. They get a touch there. Nothing consistent. Nobody that has played the game could expect Gasol to play well in his current circumstances.

I think Pau has been an issue. He hasn't been assertive, and he's playing basketball like he was brought up believing it to be a "no contact" sport. His heart doesn't seem to be in it. Physically, he 'may' be there, but he's wandered into a twisted abyss psychologically. However, I absolutely agree that Pau and Dwight cannot establish any rhythm. If we buy the premise that these two aren't doing anything with the ball once they receive it, we should attach the argument that these two are not being given the opportunity to get themselves in a rhythm, or develop any consistency. In contrast, we've all seen Kobe go through major slumps, only to continue shooting until he finds some rhythm.

DEEP3CL wrote:What is the exact point of this thread ?

There is no need to over analyze things, the team and management should know what they are. And it has nothing to do with coaching. A lot of this is at the players feet. They have to solve it.

I like D'Antoni as a coach, and actually believe him to have a highly respectable basketball IQ. I think he's figuring this thing out on the fly, and he's made some impressive short-term adjustments. There is a problem with our system, though. I think we rank tenth in points in the paint; we should be in the top five, easily. Our team is third in 3PFA, despite the fact that we have horrible three-point shooters. These are just a couple things that stand out. Like I said, I really respect D'Antoni's knowledge of the game, but I doubt he'll make the most cardinal adjustments.

I completely agree that this is, as you so appropriately phrased it, "at the players' feet". I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is absolutely no focus on the defensive end, and aside from those beautiful moments where Nash is dictating the offense, there's no chemistry on the offensive end. There'll be times where Nash is on the floor, but he'll force-feed Kobe to get his gamely quota of ISO basketball. I think Kobe is a top ten player (all time), and have absolutely enjoyed watching his game. However, the Kobe that we see now mirrors the Kobe we saw when Smush Parker was our starting point guard. There have been countless times where Kobe has looked off the open man to try to get his; this exhibits a lack of trust, which transfers over to the defensive side of the ball. This team is playing with no patience, or unity, on either end of the floor. At the same time, I think the defense will improve itself, but only to a certain extent. Team defense improves with collective experience, right?

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't. I know this team will make the playoffs without any personnel changes. The playoffs aren't the goal though, are they?

laduane1 wrote:I fell asleep reading the opening post. Get to the point. We do not need to read 1,000 words.

And you woke up to tell us that? Thanks, hombre.
EnigmaticProblem





Sixth Man
User avatar
Posts: 1,558
And1: 143
Joined: Jul 27, 2006
Top

Post#87 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 9:18 am by CraZyPraiZ

GeneralNash wrote:I just wonder if his leadership style is doing more damage than good. It is good to see he wants to push Dwight to the next level:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zjxD3MJI61Y[/youtube]

Average Celtics during their 2008 championship run were older than this team, and they were not being called old and slow....they were probably remembered as being tough, and passionate. Lakers identity is quickly becoming "old and slow" and that is not a good thing.

The reality is they don't seem to have the passion to win. That is why when they come out in the 1st quarter a lot of times this season, they get off to slow starts.


Dwight has already started to check out. A change of scenario does not change one's character. He checked out of Orlando while his team had a winning record. I am sure he would not mind being 3rd fiddle on a team if they were winning. He wanted more touches in Orlando and he wants to be the man which he will never be. Most rational people would give this current team a 2 year window at best. I am starting to believe that Dwight is gone once the season is over. Just wait till Cuban starts coddling him.
CraZyPraiZ





Pro Prospect
Posts: 874
And1: 71
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Top

Post#88 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:18 am by leeprettyp

SMH. Another thread bashing Kobe! It only makes sense to blame the guy who leaves it on the court every single game UNREAL. At times i wish we could just push out these player fans and bandwagon fans everywhere. The biggest issue I see IMO is Dwight isnt healthy and cant help Kobe carry us yet. You can see it he blows by his man every play but has to collect himself before he can jump which results in him either being stripped or the defense being able to recover and crowd him. Another issue is Gasol just aint Gasol anymore period on either end. If we're not gonna use him as the focal point in the post (Mike D. rather have him chucking 3's smh)and on the other end run more zone defense to help compensate for his weak pic n roll defense (wasnt always like that but is now) he's hurting us. Sux because unlike alot of fake fans I'm a huge fan of Pau's but this is the truth. Maybe bring Pau off the bench as the 2nd string Center and start Jamison or Metta at the PF to space the floor more for Nash, Kobe and Dwight? Also I love what Metta is doing out there but its getting a lil silly IMO we dont need our 5th best player shooting 15 shoots.

Anyway I'm not giving up on this team. I never give up on my Lakers. Maybe some of you should learn LOYALTY to 1 team. I just want us healthy come playoff time and it wont be a team that can stop both Dwight and Kobe with Nash on the SAME TEAM. IMO its obvious we're just not healthy and our franchise Center being the main guy out there when he's not
Image
leeprettyp




Analyst
User avatar
Posts: 3,455
And1: 526
Joined: Sep 17, 2012
Location: The City of Champions Los Angeles, CA
Top

Post#89 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:27 am by Kilroy

Kobe's offense has been exceptional with few exceptions...
His leadership has been fine.
I think I'd personally take a bit of a trade-off on giving up some of his efficient offense for him to focus a bit more on Defense.
We lack a perimeter presence on D, and while I agree that MWP should be the enforcer, we need Kobe to step up on D too...

If our D improved, especially our perimeter D, we'd get more transition opportunities.

So Kobe's definitely not the problem, but I think he maybe could be a bigger part of the solution.
15 Wins [floppymouse]
Kilroy





Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
User avatar
Posts: 8,664
And1: 1,922
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: patas de perros
Top

Post#90 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:01 am by Neutral 123

Yeah sounds almost conciliatory. I wouldn't expect Kobe to give up, but it seems like he's gone from shock that the team wouldn't put in the effort, to maybe seeing the team just isn't good enough. Hell, that's pretty hard to believe, but if Kobe believes it. He might be right.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
Neutral 123
General Manager
User avatar
Posts: 8,311
And1: 584
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
Location: Pandora
Top

Post#91 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:04 am by dockingsched

leeprettyp wrote:SMH. Another thread bashing Kobe! It only makes sense to blame the guy who leaves it on the court every single game UNREAL.


why do people say that? he takes almost every other play off on defense, never fighting through screens, slow to run out at shooters, and consistently losing track of his man.
"We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." - Dumbledore
dockingsched



Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 46,040
And1: 1,835
Joined: Aug 2, 2005
Top

Post#92 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:28 am by Slava

Beard wrote:I guess I would question then how the Lakers hope to compete from now until Kobe's retirement. Unless they're okay with 1st or 2nd round bounces for a few years prior to the rebuild. This is the Lakers, for crying out loud. They can have any free agent they want if they're willing to give him the keys.


Constructive criticism is well and good but posts like yours are pretty much sneakily disguised attempts at trolling.

I really don't understand why the goal posts are regularly moved wide when it comes to judging Kobe Bryant. One moment a ridiculously biased stat that we are like 4-10 or something when he scores 30+ and then when we suddenly win 6 games in a row with him scoring at the same volume, its his defense that's the issue and afterwards its his leadership.

We are essentially expecting him to be '08 Garnett, '06 Kobe and 60s Bill Russell in one package at the tender age of 34 and in his 17th NBA season on a team loaded with a previous MVP, multiple defensive player of the year winners and one of the greatest European big men to play the game.

You do not expect him to set the tone on defense, he doesn't have to, he's not a big man that can erase others mistakes and anchor a defense like KG did in '08. We essentially brought in a guy to do just that and he's no rookie either.

Its not much old age as it is about not having a defensive scheme, the center not shouting and communicating with the perimeter guys and the guys defending the pick n' roll not being on the same page and worse yet, Pau Gasol not even taking accountability for his own lapses.

Does Kobe make mistakes by not sticking to shooters? Yes. Then just put him on a guy that's a dribble penetration threat and he will be forced to stick to his man on the ball instead of concentrating off the ball. There's no one size fits all in basketball, you just need to adjust and move on.

Its not just outlandish to think that we might win 15 games in a row without our best player, its just stupid. You'll be hard pressed to find a franchise player of the same caliber for another 10 years once Kobe retires (see Bulls after Jordan). Everyone has a right to act foolish once in a while but just don't abuse the privilege.
"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
Slava




Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
User avatar
Posts: 35,533
And1: 4,607
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Location: Johnny Kills
Top

Post#93 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:33 am by Michael Lucky

I don't mind him being candid like this. It has little to do with leadershiip in my opinion. where he fails in that department is when he doesn't even bother setting any tone for his teammates on Defense which is our biggest problem.
Michael Lucky
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,164
And1: 572
Joined: Jan 2, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Top

Post#94 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 12:32 pm by NeedForSheed

Like everyone has been saying, the problem is Bryant's defense and that Howard isn't playing well and Gasol is terrible, along with our bench. Kobe's scoring, in my opinion, is keeping us in games at the moment.
Chris Duhon's Barmy Army
NeedForSheed
Ballboy
Posts: 38
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 1, 2013
Top

Post#95 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 1:59 pm by madmaxmedia

GeneralNash wrote:I understand what he's trying to do, but I don't think it's a good idea to reiterate negatives about the team. Age isn't the biggest factor with last game's loss...it's just a bad convenient excuse.


He wasn't using it as an excuse. I understand you don't want to be negative, but I really don't believe he was- he is one of those old as *** guys himself! His point was that you start by acknowledging your weaknesses, and that is what allows you to adjust or compensate. He said there was going to be nights where their shots are short, the legs are a bit slow, and the other team is running around like jackrabbits. If you acknowledge this, then you can prepare and figure out ways to compensate and WIN. He basically said all those things in a radio interview yesterday.

2012-2013 Average Laker Age: 28.5yrs

2008 Boston Celtics Championship team Average Age: 28.8yrs


Don't just look at average age, look at average of starters, or say all players with significant MPG. The Knicks right now have a really old average age, but majority of the starters are younger and a couple of bench guys (Kurt Thomas, Camby) really skew their age. I'm not sure about that Celtics squad though.

But what really compounds the Lakers age is their lack of depth. They haven't been able to to build up a good crew of supporting pieces to fill in the gaps and address the Lakers' weaknesses. Almost all the primary Laker players have 13+ years. Individually, it's not a problem just as an individual's height doesn't dictate their success. But team quickness/speed, team height, team age is important.

Another thing compounding the problem is that the 1 main guy in the starting lineup who doesn't have 13+ years NBA experience/mileage, is still recovering from major back surgery and is playing much slower and stiffer than he normally would.

As you say, none of this is an excuse to lose. But you have to realistically look at your strengths and weaknesses, and figure out how to maximize what you do have.
madmaxmedia
Analyst
User avatar
Posts: 3,410
And1: 91
Joined: Jun 21, 2001
Location: SoCal
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Los Angeles Lakers


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users