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What Exactly Is The Issue?

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Post#91 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:04 am by dockingsched

leeprettyp wrote:SMH. Another thread bashing Kobe! It only makes sense to blame the guy who leaves it on the court every single game UNREAL.


why do people say that? he takes almost every other play off on defense, never fighting through screens, slow to run out at shooters, and consistently losing track of his man.
"We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." - Dumbledore
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Post#92 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:28 am by Slava

Beard wrote:I guess I would question then how the Lakers hope to compete from now until Kobe's retirement. Unless they're okay with 1st or 2nd round bounces for a few years prior to the rebuild. This is the Lakers, for crying out loud. They can have any free agent they want if they're willing to give him the keys.


Constructive criticism is well and good but posts like yours are pretty much sneakily disguised attempts at trolling.

I really don't understand why the goal posts are regularly moved wide when it comes to judging Kobe Bryant. One moment a ridiculously biased stat that we are like 4-10 or something when he scores 30+ and then when we suddenly win 6 games in a row with him scoring at the same volume, its his defense that's the issue and afterwards its his leadership.

We are essentially expecting him to be '08 Garnett, '06 Kobe and 60s Bill Russell in one package at the tender age of 34 and in his 17th NBA season on a team loaded with a previous MVP, multiple defensive player of the year winners and one of the greatest European big men to play the game.

You do not expect him to set the tone on defense, he doesn't have to, he's not a big man that can erase others mistakes and anchor a defense like KG did in '08. We essentially brought in a guy to do just that and he's no rookie either.

Its not much old age as it is about not having a defensive scheme, the center not shouting and communicating with the perimeter guys and the guys defending the pick n' roll not being on the same page and worse yet, Pau Gasol not even taking accountability for his own lapses.

Does Kobe make mistakes by not sticking to shooters? Yes. Then just put him on a guy that's a dribble penetration threat and he will be forced to stick to his man on the ball instead of concentrating off the ball. There's no one size fits all in basketball, you just need to adjust and move on.

Its not just outlandish to think that we might win 15 games in a row without our best player, its just stupid. You'll be hard pressed to find a franchise player of the same caliber for another 10 years once Kobe retires (see Bulls after Jordan). Everyone has a right to act foolish once in a while but just don't abuse the privilege.
g105rick wrote:LA needs changes. That means benching Kobe into a lesser role or let him retire if he has another season ending injury. Why wait another 2 losing seasons? That's extremely selfish to guys like Nash, Boozer, and others

DEEP3CL wrote:Zach Lowe is a dumbass
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Post#93 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:33 am by Michael Lucky

I don't mind him being candid like this. It has little to do with leadershiip in my opinion. where he fails in that department is when he doesn't even bother setting any tone for his teammates on Defense which is our biggest problem.
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Post#94 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 12:32 pm by NeedForSheed

Like everyone has been saying, the problem is Bryant's defense and that Howard isn't playing well and Gasol is terrible, along with our bench. Kobe's scoring, in my opinion, is keeping us in games at the moment.
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Post#95 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 1:59 pm by madmaxmedia

GeneralNash wrote:I understand what he's trying to do, but I don't think it's a good idea to reiterate negatives about the team. Age isn't the biggest factor with last game's loss...it's just a bad convenient excuse.


He wasn't using it as an excuse. I understand you don't want to be negative, but I really don't believe he was- he is one of those old as *** guys himself! His point was that you start by acknowledging your weaknesses, and that is what allows you to adjust or compensate. He said there was going to be nights where their shots are short, the legs are a bit slow, and the other team is running around like jackrabbits. If you acknowledge this, then you can prepare and figure out ways to compensate and WIN. He basically said all those things in a radio interview yesterday.

2012-2013 Average Laker Age: 28.5yrs

2008 Boston Celtics Championship team Average Age: 28.8yrs


Don't just look at average age, look at average of starters, or say all players with significant MPG. The Knicks right now have a really old average age, but majority of the starters are younger and a couple of bench guys (Kurt Thomas, Camby) really skew their age. I'm not sure about that Celtics squad though.

But what really compounds the Lakers age is their lack of depth. They haven't been able to to build up a good crew of supporting pieces to fill in the gaps and address the Lakers' weaknesses. Almost all the primary Laker players have 13+ years. Individually, it's not a problem just as an individual's height doesn't dictate their success. But team quickness/speed, team height, team age is important.

Another thing compounding the problem is that the 1 main guy in the starting lineup who doesn't have 13+ years NBA experience/mileage, is still recovering from major back surgery and is playing much slower and stiffer than he normally would.

As you say, none of this is an excuse to lose. But you have to realistically look at your strengths and weaknesses, and figure out how to maximize what you do have.
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Post#96 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:13 pm by madmaxmedia

The Spurs are a good counter-argument to the age thing. However, the Spurs have consistently done a great job of building supporting pieces around their big 3. I don't know what their average age is, but they have significant contributors who are younger. The majority of the Knicks starters are younger, its a few guys like Kidd, Thomas, Camby that skew the 'average' age.

Now look at the Lakers. Nash, Kobe, Gasol, Metta, Jamison all have 13+ years I believe in the league. Howard is not old but for the time being unfortunately is stiff and balky until he fully recovers from surgery. The Lakers don't have a great bench, forcing all the older players to carry the load (mainly Kobe). You can say Kobe shouldn't shoot so much or play so many minutes, it's great to say on a message board but in these games Kobe is often the main factor keeping them in games. There are certain possessions in games where they really need a bucket, and then rely on Kobe to deliver. I get how that can be sort of a chicken-egg thing, the problem is the Lakers can't afford to lose any winnable games going forward.

If the Lakers had the Clippers bench then I agree none of this is a problem. But they don't. It's not age alone, but add it all together and you will have a lot of nights where the team looks flat and slow.

I still believe the team will make the playoffs and can possibly make significant noise. But as Kobe says they need to acknowledge their weaknesses, so that they can adjust and compensate for them.

You suggestion that they need to play a more calculated, deliberate game is one way of doing this, so I think we are basically saying the same overall thing in different ways.
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Post#97 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:31 pm by tenten

The issue is Howard.

He's no where near his Orlando days, heck, he's no where near last year's Bynum.
not talking about stats, but how many times you see him get the ball in the paint and turn the ball over?
His bball IQ is way below average and seem to have gotten worse.

Pau always have up and downs and Kobe is Kobe. Nash was hurt most of the times. So I will point most of this Laker mess on Dwight not close to meeting expectation. If you're hurt, then don't even play. I see we win more games with Pau and Hill getting starter minutes.
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Post#98 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:07 pm by ennui

There a multitude of reasons for which we are where we are. First and foremost, I would like to touch on what may be perceived as major issues, but are rather minor in comparison.

Kobe's defense, while admittedly awful, isn't an integral reason for our woes. Kobe's regular season defense hasn't changed much in application within the last 5 or so years, defensive accolades be damned. We were successful in spite of it. Kobe's offense, again while seemingly selfish and haphazard, has kept us afloat during droughts and lulls. Should Kobe be doing his hero ball thing at the end of the game? Preferably, no. But that is a symptom -- not the disease. It should be apparent that Kobe takes matters into his own hands when there is no offensive flow or consistency. Especially when the golden boy Steve Nash is being acquiescent (not much mention of this, no surprise, he is God after all). He turns down open shots, almost as if to preserve his percentages (speculation). But a huge reason why he was acquired was to space the floor, instead he is making Kapono/Mike Miller blush with his passivity.

Dwight Howard's offensive deficiencies are being magnified by his lack of lift and explosion and he largely doesn't possess the low post skill to compensate. Realize though, if he is given the ball in the proper spots consistently with adequate spacing he can still control a game, as evidenced by his play within the Princeton under Mike Brown.

This segues into my next point, which is the meat and bones of our issues, the system. This system is not suited for our personnel. Plain and simple. This is not a run and gun team. Kobe alluded to it with his old age quote and he is spot on. We simply cannot force the ball down the other team's throat because we don't have the energy or legs to prosper like that. Often, I see us work our way back into a game only to take a long three which ignites fast breaks for younger teams, allowing them to come back into games. We're playing into opposing teams hands. Teams want the likes of Jodie Meeks and Darius Morris to take quick, questionable shots, rather than have to deal with Kobe/D12/Nash.

Furthermore, this is a team with proficient post players who are not allowed to venture into the post, effectively negating our biggest advantage. Rather than having a system that allows, hell encourages post ups, we have a perimeter-oriented system helmed by old players who are on their way out in the near future. Not only will utilizing our post advantage give us the ability to control the pace, it can help our defense to get set, as there will be less long rebounds.

As much as Steve Nash's wizardry led those Phoenix Suns offenses to extraordinary heights, it did not occur in a vacuum. Gmatcallahan had an excellent post in the "Lakers get Steve Nash" thread on how those Phoenix Suns teams had the optimal roster to run the MDA 1/4 spread pick and roll system consistently. Not to take any credit away from Steve Nash, because he was obviously the maestro of the symphony, but it takes more than him to play that way and we don't have personnel who are equipped with the same tools.

Also, Dwight Howard's defense is not up to his usual lofty standards. He can't currently shrink the floor and be the ultra-dominant defensive anchor he has previously been and that is killing us. This is further exacerbated by his moping and lethargy on the defensive end when he goes multiple possessions without touching the ball. His ability to help and recover has increasingly diminished and that is compounded by the mediocre defenders we field. If he was at a hundred percent, our ineptness at perimeter defense would be considerably lessened.

Finally, Pau Gasol's all-around game and role within the offense. Pau is hampered with tendinitis and plantar fasciitis, sure I get that. I don't know how much that is contributing to his pathetic defense, but the truth is IDGAF. Some of this could be overlooked if he was enriching the offense, but he has been utterly garbage on that end too. Now, some of you may be aware that I am a proponent of Gasol, and I still believe a healthy Pau in a suitable system can still be highly effective, but I also like to believe I can be objective on this issue. And that is trade the guy as soon as you can, Lakers org, because he has been a thorn in our side penetrating deeper than any opponent has.

Obviously, things like chemistry and undefined roles are hurting us, but those are issues that organically sort themselves out. I believe the prior issues listed are not. They are solutions to those that can be implemented today.

Kobe sees this and is basically pleading to the org/coach/players to rectify it and hopefully we do. Because as much as people want to complain about players not having the energy or the legs to make this work, we have to call a spade a spade. If we could somehow get physical augmentations for our players, such as bionic legs (or a working heart for Pau) this system could work. But that is not the case nor will it ever be.
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Post#99 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:22 pm by kblo247

GeneralNash wrote:Hate to admit it being a Laker fan and a Kobe fan but he is not doing a great job of leading his team in any respect. I see a great performance from him overall, but from a leadership standpoint, I have seen nothing but negative comments from Kobe to the media. Things like this:

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... ack-energy

To me this isn't good leadership. Boston was an old and pretty slow team when they won their last ring, it's not like it hasn't been done before. Kobe is creating excuses and making stupid remarks. You can't call your team old and slow and expect your team to gain confidence in itself. Yes they are older and slower than a lot of teams, but that isn't the reason they are losing. Do you really want to ingrain "old and slow" into your teammates heads? Negative reinforcements won't help this team succeed.

First off I'm no Kobe hater but a big fan. I actually rank him just below Lebron this season from an individual player stand point.

Hate to see Kobe waste a season, and Nash waste the last two seasons of his career. The leader needs to believe they can contend and win. And right now, Kobe has that "Loser" mentality and is spreading it like a virus. It starts with the confidence and the belief you can win every night, and a leader should be instilling that in his team.



The Celtic rotation guys were
- Pierce, Allen, KG, Posey, Powe, Perk, Rondo, House, and Sam/PJ who both joined late

The Knicks heavy rotation guys have been
- Felton, Kidd, Brewer, Melo, Tyson, Novak, JR, Prigioni, and Sheed

The Lkers major minutes have went to
- Kobe, Nash, Pau, Dwight off back surgery, MWP, Duhon, Meeks, Jamison, Morrison, and Hill


Why are you accounting for the likes of Clark, Ebanks, DJO, and Sacre to ring the age down when they don't sniff the court? Why are you ignoring that the Lakers man rotation guys especially Kobe hardly sit to go with their age, unlike the Knciks rotation or those Celtics in 08?
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Post#100 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:26 pm by GeneralNash

I'm really not knocking Kobe overall, it's just his lack of leadership. I don't hear about desperate team meetings, emergency team meetings, and players crying in the locker room. That Miami Heat team in their first year were crying like babies in that locker room, and that's what the Lakers need to do. This team lacks cohesion, and that has to be a big part of Kobe's fault. The way things are going they need to start having private players meeting before every game.

It is a question of how Kobe can get his teammates on another level, emotionally, mentally, etc. Kobe obviously can get himself on that level, but he can't seem to transfer it to his team. And it doesn't just fall on Kobe, part of the blame goes to Nash. Kobe, Nash, and Dwight have to get together and figure it out. Have a team BBQ, do some team bonding, talk it out, do something besides half-assing games everyone knows they should win.
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Post#101 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:34 pm by IamBBAnalysis

Aki wrote:hungry vets the lakers are not.

except nash, he's awfully hungry


Hungry is a good word. Does anyone look hungry to win? Maybe Artest? Nash may be...but he just back from injury so not sure. Hill looks hungry. Kobe seems to be taking this season a little "lightly" so far team wise. Howard/Gasol too.
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Post#102 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:40 pm by Run-MKE 311

I really was not upset about this, Kobe is lashing out because he is confused, unsure of how to fix what is wrong.

Personally I believe he realizes that they just are not that good, the bench stinks and they play zero defense. The defensive side of things is simply a matter of effort, sure youth helps, but you have to "want" to play defense.

The Lakers have just glided through the season so far, there does not seem to be any real motivation or challenge helping to get them fired up each night.

I still believe they will find a way to start winning, but the personal is just not nearly as good as other teams.
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Post#103 Re: What Exactly Is The Issue?
Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:53 pm by Run-MKE 311

The issue for me is that the Lakers just are not very good, the pieces looked great on paper but have not translated. Perhaps they have a lousy fit with Coach D and his guys as well, whatever it is, is not working.
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Post#104 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 6:00 pm by IamBBAnalysis

GeneralNash wrote:I'm really not knocking Kobe overall, it's just his lack of leadership. I don't hear about desperate team meetings, emergency team meetings, and players crying in the locker room. That Miami Heat team in their first year were crying like babies in that locker room, and that's what the Lakers need to do. This team lacks cohesion, and that has to be a big part of Kobe's fault. The way things are going they need to start having private players meeting before every game.

It is a question of how Kobe can get his teammates on another level, emotionally, mentally, etc. Kobe obviously can get himself on that level, but he can't seem to transfer it to his team. And it doesn't just fall on Kobe, part of the blame goes to Nash. Kobe, Nash, and Dwight have to get together and figure it out. Have a team BBQ, do some team bonding, talk it out, do something besides half-assing games everyone knows they should win.


I agree its odd you don't hear about player only meetings and more about the players trying to work things out. But maybe they are and we don't know?

I don't think you blame Kobe. Might as well blame Dwight or Nash too. They are all stars that have led their own team. Each one of them is capable of leadership.

Let's not fool ourselves. The team is dysfunctional. They are not on the same page and don't play for one another. That has to change. I have seen signs though since Nash has gotten back. But it cannot all be fixed at once. The team "almost comically this late into the season" is just feeling each other out.
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Post#105 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 6:03 pm by IamBBAnalysis

Run-MKE 311 wrote:I

Personally I believe he realizes that they just are not that good, the bench stinks and they play zero defense.


I have seen people say this a bit more lately and I couldn't disagree more. They lose because they lack chemistry, play with less effort then other teams, and think they can walk out and win. It has nothing to do with how good they are, age, or talent. Nothing.
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Post#106 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 6:40 pm by ennui

This thread is asscheeks.
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Post#107 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:18 pm by what would jack bauer do?

Yeah the world's not ending, Lakers don't need to go into panic mode. They've won what 5 out of 7? We ain't gonna go cry in the locker room like the heat. Give Nash and d12 some time to get healthy. We'll be fine.
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Post#108 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:54 pm by D Nice

What a terrible post. Your lack of understanding is incredible. That, combined with your join date and avatar, makes it pretty clear you're lying in the OP, and are merely a Sun surrogate gritting your teeth and cheering for this team so your boy get's a ring. :lol:

Can't believe some of you guys are engaging this trash on an intellectual level. It's ridiculous.
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Post#109 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:14 pm by doozyj

Kobe has been nothing but amazing, last time I checked D'Antoni is the coach of this team not Kobe. Kobe is doing everything he is being asked to in Mikes overall system. Blame Mike if anything.
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Post#110 Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying L
Thu Jan 3, 2013 11:30 pm by GeneralNash

D Nice wrote:What a terrible post. Your lack of understanding is incredible. That, combined with your join date and avatar, makes it pretty clear you're lying in the OP, and are merely a Sun surrogate gritting your teeth and cheering for this team so your boy get's a ring. :lol:

Can't believe some of you guys are engaging this trash on an intellectual level. It's ridiculous.


No it's you that don't understand. Here are some facts:

""In the 31 years since the 1980 season, the NBA championship has been won by one of the two No. 1 seeds 23 times, or 74 percent of the time. Of those, it has been won by the No. 1 overall team 15 times, or 48 percent.

In the other nine Finals, five were won by a two seed, three by a three seed and only one team has won with lower than a three seed. That distinction goes to the 1995 Houston Rockets, who won with a six seed."

This team lacks passion and emotion. James worthy says it all the time, and he's right. I watch every game on Time Warner Cable. What's to understand except they are losing to teams they are far better than, as is with injuries? What's to understand when they decide not to play defense and give half-ass efforts? I've watched every game. It has to start with leadership and each individual being accountable. Kobe says it's HIS team so why can't we keep him accountable for spewing crap to the media or not elevating his teammates to his level? If he can't lead then maybe Nash should start taking over as the vocal leader...but he can't do that because then feelings and egos would be hurt right?

What I see is a bunch of laid back attitudes on the court, not giving 100%. It's like they are in cruise control. If you want to contend you have to be a top 3 seed or above for a realistic shot...the stats and history prove this. That means they have to start winning now, and have some 8-10 game win streak stretches to get into that top 3 seed bracket. You can say you are "built for the playoffs" but what then when you are 6th seed and are down 0-2 in the first round because you don't have home court advantage.

I tell you what, it is panic mode if this team plans to realistically contend for a ring.

If they just want to make the playoffs...then it's not panic mode as you state. I for one believed this team wanted to be contenders.
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