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Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (check this article)

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Post#61 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:05 pm by ArC_man

I do partially blame Kobe's leadership for our current situation. Think about it, Kobe + Nash or Kobe + Dwight even if they're surrounded by D-league scrubs (which they aren't) should be plenty to lead a team to a .500 record. Our current record is just plain inexcusable, we've lost so many games that we should have won.
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Post#62 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:40 am by KB24TBOTB

LA_Sports wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
i know its these guy's are pros, but when your team leader doesn't even try on defense but has no problem taking so many shots, its hard to give it your all yourself.

Bingo...

Then kind of shows that you really don't care to win if you will let that determine how you play. As a player you do all you can ignoring what someone else isn't doing at least this way you can say to yourself that you left everything out on the court.

Not an excuse for Kobe but your excusing rest of the teams poor play
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Post#63 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:09 am by WhatRickyThinks

LA_Sports wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
i know its these guy's are pros, but when your team leader doesn't even try on defense but has no problem taking so many shots, its hard to give it your all yourself.

Bingo...

Bingo squared.
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Post#64 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm by chefy

GeneralNash wrote:It is just not defense. For what is supose to be a potent offensive minded team...lakers are not. Lakers should be winning half of their games by having a superior offense...but they just lack offensive superiority against most teams.

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d'antoni's offense is just not a good fit for us right now. maybe when everybodys 100% healthy. another thing is kobe takes so many iso play it just stops the offense. d'antoni's offense is supposed to be quick. if you look back at the suns roster almost every player is a spot up shooter. raja,marion,thomas,richardson,hill. the ideal sg next to nash is someone who will just spread the floor and play good D. our team is the opposite of that.
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Post#65 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:41 pm by richboy

PandGneverfold wrote:
richboy wrote:
PandGneverfold wrote:One player is not responsible for this teams defense, our sucky defense takes a total team effort,including the coaching staff.



Usually would agree. But when your name is Kobe Bryant. You say I'm all about winning. I'm the leader of this team. You set the tone. You take the credit for the wins but everyone else was at fault for the losses. Don't work that way.

Let be perfectly honest as I'm already hearing well other players defense sucks too. It is a big difference to your defense sucks to your not even trying. What player on this roster isn't even trying on defense.

You need to bring it on defense even more than you do on offense. If that means you only average 25 a game then that is fine. But you have to bring it on the defensive end first. I said it days ago. With some criticizing me for being hard on Kobe. The obvious you criticize Kobe you must be a hater. At least 6 games this year that have been somewhat close. That I'm watching the game and wondering what in the world Kobe is doing on defense. Actually every game has been like that but at least 6 games that to me if Kobe gave even a small amount effort on defense they win easy. I'm watching Denver play by play guys laugh at how Kobe was just ignoring Corey Brewer. JVG last night. Wish he was the coach. This article. Finally some people willing to call Kobe out. I doubt Mike D will say anything though.

No one is trying on defense and save the Kobe gets all the credit for winning excuse. As soon as the lakers were winning in 09 and 10 most people on realgm was screaming it was all pAu and that laker frontline and that you could replace Kobe with any shooting guard and get the same results. You even had idiots saying Bynum was dominant during that time. I know Kobe is the leader and deserves some flack but besides Jordan hill there is absolutely no one on this team trying on defense,and that's not surprising once you see the coach. Like I said blaming one guy is the easy way out. I just find it funny that when other guys put up nice stats with nice averages they get praise and the well they just need more help,but the guy putting up 30,5,5 on our team is the problem. Yea sure


Please. Dwight is at the top of the league in rebounds and blocks. Artest is still battling hard even if he lacks the speed on defense. Even though Nash sucks it not because he doesn't try. Kobe not playing hard on defense can not be excused with well nobody is trying.

Father Time wrote:okay, criticizing kobe does not make you a hater. what makes a hater is being blatantly biased in how you criticize kobe. i haven't ever seen richboy say one good thing about kobe, not one. all he ever posts about is how kobe is destroying the team, how his defense is terrible, his shot selection is terrible, his leadership is terrible, his efficiency is terrible, i think you get the idea. i'm sorry but if you can't provide a balanced critique of kobe then yes you might be a hater. see how the article criticizes kobe? they give him credit for a historic offensive season, while at the same time pointing out how his defense needs to get better. that is a fair and balanced approach.

jvg criticizes him but also explains it's not all on kobe and he's one of the best ever. again, balanced.


No the problem is when you hear criticism you hear hate. Your post just proves it. First I have to call you a liar because I have never posted that Kobe is destroying the team. Don't let your intense love for Kobe blind what you hear and what is actually said.

You have pointed about all you could say about Kobe in 17 years. Everything you just pointed out is a completely fair criticism of Kobe. It not fair to question Kobe's defense this year? It isn't fair to question how Kobe could take so many shots a year ago?

I don't even get your post. Your in essence saying please give Kobe some love before you criticize him. JVG was asked what does Kobe need to improve on and he said his off the ball defense had been bad this year. He then said Kobe also needs to try to get other players a few more shots. Not sure where you heard JVG then start his Kobe is one of the best ever comments. If he did that is fine but believe me when JVG was coaching he didn't say Patrick Ewing do this but yeah your one of the greats with every criticism.

What love I should have given him last year. Apparently if you don't accompany every criticism with your one of the greatest players of all-time you must be a hater. You didn't say well you was wrong. No what I said was completely fact. Your mad I said it without it being sandwiched between some love. Excuse me I'm the one that for years had Kobe Bryant in the top 10 all-time before most on this board. I'm not talking a few years ago I'm saying had him near top 10 all-time when he was still playing with Shaq. Oh yeah I was the one saying let Shaq go and you can build around Kobe. Back then I was a Kobe fanboy by many. Go to the player comparison board and look at some of my Shaq debate threads where I actually have Kobe as not being a sidekick but just as important to those teams as Shaq. I was on this board I was here defending Kobe as being much better than Vince Carter and Tmac when that was not the common thinking. Here defending him threw rape allegations. Defending him when he was being called selfish after the debacle against the Pistons in the finals.

See I don't care if you think I love Kobe enough after each post. When things are not going good I'm going to state why. Not what is good for Kobe but what is good for the Lakers. A year ago Kobe had a 21 PER and a 105 offensive rating the lowest TS% of his career yet somehow managed the second highest shot per minute number of his career. If you want the Lakers to win games things like that can't be ignored.

See some people are bigger Kobe fans than they are Laker fans. Either way is fine but my focus is what it takes for the Lakers to win games. That is why I can't talk about the offensive great year because it isn't coming with wins. When I look at a team with Nash, Gasol, Howard, Bryant, Artest, Jamison offense is not what I think this team needs to win. As much as I would like to praise him for his season offensively it is coming in games they are losing. Although I don't give him all the blame. They are specific games that to me Kobe's lack of defensive effort have led to a lost. As the guy that says he is the leader of this team I felt he should be called out on that. It isn't about hating Kobe. It about the leader of this team could have won games by defending players who really are in the game only to defend him. If I was a hater I would say why didn't he shut down James Harden. No If the only thing stopping a victory is defense on guys like Alonzo Gee, Corey Brewer, Aaron Affalo I should expect he can do that. If he did that then we can talk about the great offensive year.
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Post#66 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:02 pm by TyCobb

^I have never seen you post here like you have this year. Is Kobe your target this season since Rose hasn't played yet?
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Post#67 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:11 pm by b shaw20

I will preface this by saying I am very appreciative of what kobe has given the franchise over the years and many of my friends think I worshiped the guy. (have shirts, jerseys, mcfarlanes, etc)

But the season's failures can be attributed to many factors some of which are outside of his control (injuries, new systems, other guys performance, etc). However, there are some very obvious flaws in kobe's approach and effort on the defensive end that play a HUGE part in why we can't get the team to get into a flow.

IMO, this team does not need him to carry the scoring load. Anyone who has played basketball knows a team plays its best when everyone is involved and know their roles (when to shoot and when to defer). Historically, Kobe simply outscored opponents because he was that much better than them. When he gets hot, he is hard to stop. But the team suffers because no else gets involved. Defenses know he is in "attack" mode and throw bodies his way and eventually, kobe cools off.

This Laker team would be better served if he sacrificed some of his minutes and shot attempts and conserved his energy to the defensive end. He needs to lead by example and be disciplined on defense. He has said defense is the key, so not sure why he has not made a noticeable effort of any kind. His stubborn ways to prefer to outscore are not working. And throw in the fact that when he is not efficient he is hurting the team on both ends of the court.

A true leader should shoulder the good and the bad but has to lead by example.

We are on the edge of no return and given the huge role and impact that kobe has on this team, he is the only one that can turn this around.

Efficiency, sound defense, unselfishness, hustle, lead by example.... the rest will follow.
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Post#68 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:35 pm by PandGneverfold

No rich boy there's a difference between criticizing someone and hating. Semi,deep,anklebreaker,tycobb,dock,and a host of others criticize Kobe and with good reason,all you do is post run on inaccurate drivel when it comes to Kobe. Just because he's Kobe and his resume already proves he's about winning he has to take full responsibity for his teams defense woes, even though he has a point guard many say can't play defense,a broken down gasoline who hasn't done anything in a few years,an old arrest who clearly isn't the same,and a not fully healthy Howard ,oh and on top of that a coach who everyone knows doesn't preach defense. Yet it's all Kobe's fault,that's hating. Kob should be held responsible for his defense,but that is in no way an excuse for everyone to dog it.
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Post#69 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:37 pm by dockingsched

i thought richboy was a warriors fan. at least it seems that way in my limited memory of that username.
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Post#70 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:40 pm by PandGneverfold

b shaw20 wrote:I will preface this by saying I am very appreciative of what kobe has given the franchise over the years and many of my friends think I worshiped the guy. (have shirts, jerseys, mcfarlanes, etc)

But the season's failures can be attributed to many factors some of which are outside of his control (injuries, new systems, other guys performance, etc). However, there are some very obvious flaws in kobe's approach and effort on the defensive end that play a HUGE part in why we can't get the team to get into a flow.

IMO, this team does not need him to carry the scoring load. Anyone who has played basketball knows a team plays its best when everyone is involved and know their roles (when to shoot and when to defer). Historically, Kobe simply outscored opponents because he was that much better than them. When he gets hot, he is hard to stop. But the team suffers because no else gets involved. Defenses know he is in "attack" mode and throw bodies his way and eventually, kobe cools off.

This Laker team would be better served if he sacrificed some of his minutes and shot attempts and conserved his energy to the defensive end. He needs to lead by example and be disciplined on defense. He has said defense is the key, so not sure why he has not made a noticeable effort of any kind. His stubborn ways to prefer to outscore are not working. And throw in the fact that when he is not efficient he is hurting the team on both ends of the court.

A true leader should shoulder the good and the bad but has to lead by example.

We are on the edge of no return and given the huge role and impact that kobe has on this team, he is the only one that can turn this around.

Efficiency, sound defense, unselfishness, hustle, lead by example.... the rest will follow.

That's the thing bshaw our offense is great and Kobe is not our hindering anyone on offense. Defense just like offense is a team effort. I highly doubt if Kobe were the only one dogging it this team would be this bad defensively. We I look at recent games I remember Blake going abusing pAu. I remember no name centers grabbing rebounds and out boxing Howard,I recall Durant going off,Westbrook, going off. Just like all you so called team first guys wanna spread the wealth when we are winning,spread the blame when we are losing.
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Post#71 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:54 pm by b shaw20

^^^^@pandG

I'm not saying others are not to blame, don't get me wrong. But this team is good enough to overcome an off night from Pau, or Metta, or anyone else. But the one constant has to be Kobe because he is that good. To me, he can easily average 23-25 pts on 15-18 shots without breaking a sweat. But he must contribute in other ways, not just scoring.

He doesn't need to take double covered 3s, those are horrible shots. Instead, I'd like for him to try and get others going on PNR or penetration, kick outs. Nash, D12, or even Pau need help getting theirs. As much as Nash tries, the ball stops most of the time when it goes to Kobe. Kobe has to trust, for better or worse.

His was has been proven and just does not work.
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Post#72 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:07 pm by PandGneverfold

b shaw20 wrote:^^^^@pandG

I'm not saying others are not to blame, don't get me wrong. But this team is good enough to overcome an off night from Pau, or Metta, or anyone else. But the one constant has to be Kobe because he is that good. To me, he can easily average 23-25 pts on 15-18 shots without breaking a sweat. But he must contribute in other ways, not just scoring.

He doesn't need to take double covered 3s, those are horrible shots. Instead, I'd like for him to try and get others going on PNR or penetration, kick outs. Nash, D12, or even Pau need help getting theirs. As much as Nash tries, the ball stops most of the time when it goes to Kobe. Kobe has to trust, for better or worse.

His was has been proven and just does not work.

Oh I fully agree about the bad shots,there is no excuse for that.
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Post#73 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:56 am by GeneralNash

Kobe is probably the best on ball defender aside from Metta World Peace. Lakers really have two of the best on ball defenders in the league right now in Metta and Kobe.

I like how Kobe is purposefully looking for Dwight now even when he knows he can shoot it. That is one big adjustment that is going to be a monumental improvement. Because Kobe knows if you get the big man going on the offensive end, he is going to get it done on the defensive end too.
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Post#74 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:10 am by Dr Aki

either way, tonight he stuck to kyrie irving and on occasion he at least hounded dion walters

better concentration from kobe tonight
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Post#75 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:15 am by richboy

dockingsched wrote:i thought richboy was a warriors fan. at least it seems that way in my limited memory of that username.
TyCobb wrote:^I have never seen you post here like you have this year. Is Kobe your target this season since Rose hasn't played yet?


Let me give my history so we can end this. I was a Sonic's fan. I was a Magic fan also back when they had Shaq and Penny. When Shaq left for the Lakers I followed him to LA and became a Laker fan. Then the Sonics left town and I was following the Magic and the Lakers. Then Dwight left for Lakers. The Magic became irrelevant so I spend little more time on the Laker board.

Never been a warrior fan. Not sure where that came from. Actually I'm a bigger fan of the sport of basketball than any individual team now. I never have a grudge on individual players. I tell what I see I didn't start criticizing Kobe for no reason. I study the game and saw Kobe making lazy blatant horrible efforts on defense. Never started a thread though. But when I see the usual Gasol is horrible on defense rants. The why isn't Dwight covering up all our defensive shortcomings stuff. Someone has to say one of the biggest issues on defense on this team is the leader of the team.

Rose was never a target. I tell the truth of what I see. If you don't like it and so many people fall in love with players that they start to cry when you say even things that are true. My point about Rose is he is pretty much the same as Westbrook. The only difference is he plays in a big market and gets all the credit for the wins. I stated that the Bulls win because defense and rebounding. Even without Rose they be a strong playoff team. Bull fans cried bloody murder. Said if you switched Rose with Westbrook they might win 30 games. That without Rose they be at the bottom of the league. It is funny how fans works. I predicted the Bulls would still win over 45 games without Rose for the entire season. Instead of people saying you must be a Bulls lover and looking at that as a positive they think I must be a Rose hater because I didn't predict complete gloom and doom.

PandGneverfold wrote:No rich boy there's a difference between criticizing someone and hating. Semi,deep,anklebreaker,tycobb,dock,and a host of others criticize Kobe and with good reason,all you do is post run on inaccurate drivel when it comes to Kobe. Just because he's Kobe and his resume already proves he's about winning he has to take full responsibity for his teams defense woes, even though he has a point guard many say can't play defense,a broken down gasoline who hasn't done anything in a few years,an old arrest who clearly isn't the same,and a not fully healthy Howard ,oh and on top of that a coach who everyone knows doesn't preach defense. Yet it's all Kobe's fault,that's hating. Kob should be held responsible for his defense,but that is in no way an excuse for everyone to dog it.


My post don't come without merit. Many people have cried over the years about my opinions because they weren't popular at the times. Then weeks or even years later they are saying the same thing. That said you blatantly lie. You know I have not said all of the Lakers problems are because of Kobe. I have said that a few times in this thread. The fact that somehow you keep hearing that makes me think I'm wasting my time with a Kobe lover who knows nothing about basketball and if you say anything negative about Kobe all you seem to hear is every problem on the team is due to Kobe. I have had just one issue with Kobe this year. His defense. Do I think he shoots to much sometimes? No question about that. However if he going to take a few bad shots a game as long as he is efficient I have no issue. My issue is just give me effort on defense. I didn't say he was the reason they were bad defensively. I said that they could have won a few close games this year if Kobe had defended very limited offensive players with a little more attention. The fact just by saying that I must be Kobe hater, Bull. I know exactly who I'm dealing with now.

That is why I hate post like the one you just said. Nash can't play defense I don't care he going to try his best. If you wanted defense at PG you got the wrong player in the off-season. Gasol can play soft or be slow footed on defense all he wants. Gasol has always been mediocre as a team defender. Those are things that I knew would be the case going into the season. When Mike D became the coach I knew defense was going to be a major topic. What I can't accept is a lack of effort. If Kobe was just getting destroyed because he was old and slow I could accept that. Can't accept well if I'm not defending the ball handler I'm pretty much resting on defense.

Like someone said this team doesn't need Kobe resting on defense so he can score more. No reason this team shouldn't have plenty of offense to win games. This isn't the Smush Parker Kwame Brown days. What I would love to hear from Kobe is him telling Mike D lets get Gasol at least 10 touches in the post. He has said he won 2 titles with Gasol in the post and wondered why they went away from that. I wonder that when he is being guarded by Carmelo Anthony for an entire quarter and can't get a touch in the block. I like him to say hey I need Dwight involved in this offense. That no way he should get 3 shots in any half of basketball. I would like Kobe to say lets get these others involved on offense so me, MWP and Dwight can set the tone defensively. If he did that the Laker nation be pumped. The team be excited. Not asking a lot. Instead I think Kobe thinks if were down by 10 I need to score more. Sometimes its rebound more. Sometimes its defend harder.
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Post#76 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:05 am by Father Time

um, i don't ignore kobe's flaws, i'm perfectly aware of all of them. i'll be a lakers fan long after kobe retires, too. the difference is a hater only sees a flawed player while the rest of us consider the entire picture.

there's also a difference between fair and unfair criticism. saying kobe has been really bad defensively this year is fair criticism. saying he's the sole reason the lakers have been bad defensively or just plain bad this year is unfair criticism. i feel a lot of your criticism, richboy, is usually pretty extreme.

at this stage of kobe's career, i don't think he should get all of the credit or blame for the team's success. maybe 5 years ago that would be fair, but not when he's old and just a year or two away from retirement. if somehow the team wins the ring this year i'm not going to go "yay kobe you're the best you did it!!!11". i'd be happy the TEAM won and appreciate every players contribution, including kobe's.

anyway, i don't even care that much, but you quoted me so i felt like i needed to respond to what you wrote. i realize you'll probably twist my words or call me some kobe fanatic or whatever, or a kobe fan and not a team fan but you can support BOTH equally.
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Post#77 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:26 pm by Mirjalovic

The critics on Kobe this year so harsh.. i remember him shooting so bad in 2009/2010 reg season, when he got that wrist injury, sometimes he single-handedly destroy our momentum in the game with his bad & stubborn shootings, & the result, we lose the games/need the late buzzer, but people rarely blame him (but one guy, semi sentinent IIRC,)

but this year, this guy offensively right now really good, even arguably better than the last 5 years, but the critics so over to the top, i understand, Lakers have losing record, his help defense sometimes bad, and he often gambling when one on one defense (especially when he fighting through pick)... but its seem people just doesnt want tagged as Kobe lovers, as if its cool to hate on him..as if the Lakers fans can't be Kobe fans.. sounds like everyone want to prove as if they're not bandwagoner..

Some people may argue coaching isnt important, i often heard people keep saying "basically Pjax aint coaching in his last 2 years with the Lakers".. but it doesnt t work like that, coaching is one of the most important aspect in basketball, my english very limited to explain it, but if you play in organized sports should know this. We knew, D'Antoni is offensive mastermind, not defensive guru. In his days with Knicks, he got Woodson as defensive specialist coach, but now he can't even bring his own coaching staff, and now we expect the Lakers playing good defense instantly ? No, our team still adjusting on the fly.. because sudden change in head coach position.

Look Howard, i don't care if his back isnt healing yet, but hes multiples DPOYs winner, that should be easy for him for anchoring the defense that consist another former DPOY, Ron Artest, or the seven footer, Pau, or multiple all defensive team Kobe who once helluva defender in his young days, etc etc, but no, our defense still bad. What thats mean ? Our team still adjusting. Maybe sometimes we see Kobe late in rotation etc, but did you notice ? The fkn entire team sometimes missing the rotations too ? Thats mean our defense scheme isnt mature yet,, we need some patience, building some chemistry, hope it will gel soon, n pray we dont miss the playoff.
olive_triangurl wrote:Last season, Nick Young averaged 17.9ppg 44%fg 39%treys.
But now Kobe is back, and is wasting Young's career.

:crazy: :crazy:
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Post#78 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:36 pm by semi-sentient

Mirjalovic wrote:The critics on Kobe this year so harsh.. i remember him shooting so bad in 2009/2010 reg season, when he got that wrist injury, sometimes he single-handedly destroy our momentum in the game with his bad & stubborn shootings, & the result, we lose the games/need the late buzzer, but people rarely blame him (but one guy, semi sentinent IIRC,)


Yeah, I was on him a lot because he was trying to play through his injuries and in the process hurting the team. Phil should have just sat him for a few weeks. The end result was still good but for a while we looked really vulnerable.
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Post#79 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:13 am by Tee212

dam kobe and his defense
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Post#80 Re: Kobe's D is a detriment to the Lakers (ch
Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:02 am by Imadogg

We win 2 games straight when Kobe plays defense for full games and guards the best player on the other team!!! His defense has looked amazing

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278289
Brandon Jennings was held to 12 points on 4-of-14 shooting by Bryant, and Milwaukee's young star emerged from Staples Center with newfound respect for the fifth-leading scorer in NBA history.

"I don't think I've ever seen anybody put that much pressure on a point guard full court for a whole game," Jennings said. "It was probably the best defense somebody's ever played on me since I've been in the league -- just constantly putting pressure on me, touching me, hitting me at all times in the game. He wouldn't let me just catch the ball easy, and I wasn't able to get the ball a lot, so it was pretty difficult."
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