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The Need for 3D1 player

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warren weel im
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The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#1 » by warren weel im » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:00 am

I don't usually post here on the Lakers board, just on the general TnT board but I seek the opinion of fellow GMs.

In terms of team-building considered and not just hope to land stars type of moves, I have recommended that the Lakers pair up D'Angelo with a 3D1 guy. A PG that can spot up 3s, defend quicker PGs and bring the ball up court if needed. Perfect example would be Patrick Beverly, the other 2 I could think of are Iman Shumpert and Matthew Dellavedova. Any others?

In terms of the actual X-O's, pairing Russell w/ a 3D1 will only give Russell the freedom to find his offense. This was evident during the Pistons game where he didn't have to guard anyone very quick, he was able to establish his own game and not just about jacking up 3s.

Opinions needed.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#2 » by larry14r » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:05 am

warren weel im wrote:I don't usually post here on the Lakers board, just on the general TnT board but I seek the opinion of fellow GMs.

In terms of team-building considered and not just hope to land stars type of moves, I have recommended that the Lakers pair up D'Angelo with a 3D1 guy. A PG that can spot up 3s, defend quicker PGs and bring the ball up court if needed. Perfect example would be Patrick Beverly, the other 2 I could think of are Iman Shumpert and Matthew Dellavedova. Any others?

In terms of the actual X-O's, pairing Russell w/ a 3D1 will only give Russell the freedom to find his offense. This was evident during the Pistons game where he didn't have to guard anyone very quick, he was able to establish his own game and not just about jacking up 3s.

Opinions needed.


I had the same idea about a 3D5 meaning center next to Randle too, and Ingram at the 3.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#3 » by Landsberger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:21 am

I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#4 » by larry14r » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:02 am

Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


That's why we were trying to lure a big name free agent to be the leader while the young kids be the supporting cast.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#5 » by Landsberger » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:27 am

larry14r wrote:
Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


That's why we were trying to lure a big name free agent to be the leader while the young kids be the supporting cast.


Yup.... and in today's game the big name FA all want to play with each other. The only way we get one is to trade even then it will take some of the youth to do that. LA just isn't enticing to guys like Durant, Westbrook etc. They all want to be on "super teams".
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#6 » by MrWaffles » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:30 am

I believe it's way too early to judge on if Dangelo can flourish at the PG position.

I mean last year didn't count since it was Kobe Swan Song

This year he's playing a majority of his minutes with washed up Vets like Mozgov and Deng. I'd like to see Russell play with talented players who 3D as well. However, that's just not going to happen for quite some time.

Remember this, he just started playing PG his sophomore year in high school.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#7 » by larry14r » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:18 am

Landsberger wrote:
larry14r wrote:
Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


That's why we were trying to lure a big name free agent to be the leader while the young kids be the supporting cast.


Yup.... and in today's game the big name FA all want to play with each other. The only way we get one is to trade even then it will take some of the youth to do that. LA just isn't enticing to guys like Durant, Westbrook etc. They all want to be on "super teams".


That's never going to happen because the league will stop us from building a super team.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#8 » by Vesper » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:06 am

Luke's system isn't cater to DLO at all.

IF MIke D was our coach and DLo was failing, I would be worried.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#9 » by Spens1 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:22 am

He's a S.G, we need that P.G who can carry the system really. I mean he actually seems like a D'Antoni ball handler.

Anyway not sure who such a player would be, if such a P.G exists and is attainable, we should go all out to get them (someone who springs to mind is actually Kris Dunn, not sure if we could get him though)
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#10 » by Slava » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:09 am

Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


Have you checked Kobe's efficiency stats in his 2nd season? Its very weird and wrong to be making definitive statements like these for a player who is 20. Russell's true shooting and eFG percentages are already higher than league average.

Luke is getting him to play off the ball a lot by letting Randle and Ingram handle the ball more. I'd be surprised if D'Angelo's time of possession is even in the same league as other PGs. Adding a dedicated PG who needs the ball in his hands to be effective wouldn't just move Russell off the ball it would do the same for Randle, who isn't remotely as effective if you do not use his playmaking ability.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#11 » by warren weel im » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:46 am

Slava wrote:
Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


Have you checked Kobe's efficiency stats in his 2nd season? Its very weird and wrong to be making definitive statements like these for a player who is 20. Russell's true shooting and eFG percentages are already higher than league average.

Luke is getting him to play off the ball a lot by letting Randle and Ingram handle the ball more. I'd be surprised if D'Angelo's time of possession is even in the same league as other PGs. Adding a dedicated PG who needs the ball in his hands to be effective wouldn't just move Russell off the ball it would do the same for Randle, who isn't remotely as effective if you do not use his playmaking ability.


Lest everyone else forgets, Russell's stats are with a bum knee and at 75% usage (27mpg) ... and just getting better. He's far from a complete player, but he's nowhere near a bust that everyone's so quick to tout him.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#12 » by crazyeights » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:46 pm

There aren't many guys who fit the bill:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

Free agents:
Kyle Lowry
George Hill
Jrue Holiday

We'd have to pay a lot for Lowry/Hill. Could potentially get Holiday at a decent rate, but we'd be relying on our young guys to get us over the hump.

What do you guys think about their fits with Russell and the core, their costs, and if they're remotely possible?

Then there's the trade market...Rubio is not a 3, but he is the D and a straight up distributor so that's interesting. Curious what the Timberwolves are looking to do with him.
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Re: RE: Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#13 » by miggs » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:40 pm

crazyeights wrote:There aren't many guys who fit the bill:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

Free agents:
Kyle Lowry
George Hill
Jrue Holiday

We'd have to pay a lot for Lowry/Hill. Could potentially get Holiday at a decent rate, but we'd be relying on our young guys to get us over the hump.

What do you guys think about their fits with Russell and the core, their costs, and if they're remotely possible?

Then there's the trade market...Rubio is not a 3, but he is the D and a straight up distributor so that's interesting. Curious what the Timberwolves are looking to do with him.

I'm also very curious what the Wolves want for Rubio. After Pekovic is medically retired I hope to see talks heat
up on Rubio.

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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#14 » by slifersd » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:47 pm

I think the deal with Russell is about expectations. People were expecting to see a quantum leap from last year, and his development has been somewhat underwhelming by that standard. That is, of course, not to say that he didn't improve or regressed, just that he didn't improve leaps and bounds like people thought he would. He's certainly not much better on defense, his shots still comes and goes and he's still not a point guard people can believe in. He is indeed young and still has time to make all those improvements, and I don't think anyone would label him a total bust. But considering how well Porzingis continues to look, and the amount of responsibility handed to DLo this year (as opposed to last year), I also can't fault people for feeling just a little underwhelmed with where he is at right now. At the end of the day, what Laker fans really wanted to see was a guy they could pencil in as one of the cornerstones of our next great team, and DLo has not answered that call yet.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#15 » by Landsberger » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:19 am

Slava wrote:
Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


Its very weird and wrong to be making definitive statements like these


I'm not sure is "definitive" and "weird" and "wrong". Is there a rules page I'm missing. Wrong is a very interesting choice of words.

I could list a dozen 20 year olds who posted best ever shooting % in their second year. Tyreke Evans has yet to exceed his first year at 20 years old in many ways for example.

What is weird is that you chose to compare him to Kobe. Is that just an obscure "advanced stat" or do you want to expand that to attitude, leadership ability and drive to get better? That was there with Kobe at 20 most definitely and I'd say more important that any stat ever conceived.

I think he's best suited for an off the ball position and I wouldn't put him on a "do not trade" list just because of something that may happen.

As for his value to the team in the near and long term. I'd say that a mystery knee condition is very relevant to it. Can he even play 34 minutes a game? Why did a 20 year old need a platelet procedure? Does a knee that needs a treatment like that get better or worse the more one plays?

As I've noted before. I don't see the next Laker great in him unless by "great" it means the best player on a 35 win team.

That's a prognostication and not "definitive" just as I wasn't "definitive" in the original post. The only time anyone can be definitive is in retrospect. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to say so.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#16 » by Landsberger » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:27 am

warren weel im wrote:
Slava wrote:
Landsberger wrote:I've been saying this for a while now. He's not a PG at this level.... at least not one who can have the same type of success he had in College. He's physically limited on both ends for that position. He has a difficult time finishing at the rim and is equally having trouble creating space for shots elsewhere on the floor consistently. When he is not the primary ball handler he gets much better looks and it shooting much better.

All of that said, I'm not sure he's ever a +45% shooter with any consistency at this level. Maybe he can make that jump but midway through season 2 he's going the wrong way and this is supposed to be a system built for him with a rah-rah coach. Waiting just for the sake of waiting doesn't seem to be the answer with him. At this point his ceiling seems to be a combo guard who is in support of a team's best player..... not a good team's best player.


Have you checked Kobe's efficiency stats in his 2nd season? Its very weird and wrong to be making definitive statements like these for a player who is 20. Russell's true shooting and eFG percentages are already higher than league average.

Luke is getting him to play off the ball a lot by letting Randle and Ingram handle the ball more. I'd be surprised if D'Angelo's time of possession is even in the same league as other PGs. Adding a dedicated PG who needs the ball in his hands to be effective wouldn't just move Russell off the ball it would do the same for Randle, who isn't remotely as effective if you do not use his playmaking ability.


Lest everyone else forgets, Russell's stats are with a bum knee and at 75% usage (27mpg) ... and just getting better. He's far from a complete player, but he's nowhere near a bust that everyone's so quick to tout him.


I'd say that you hit on another great point about him. A "bum" knee at 20?! He needed a procedure that geezers typically get to extend a year or two. No real explanation of it other that "soreness". That's interesting to say the least. Combine that with the fact that he's only getting 26 minutes a game and one has to ask can he play 34 minutes a night and if he does do his stats translate directly. The 36 a game stats are really not a good indicator in my opinion. Too many variables to just expand the minutes and stats at the same rate but that's just me.

I've never said he's a bust or even anything close to that. Let's be clear here. I question his attitude and effort. I also question his ability to create space for himself at this level. Typically both of these things are somewhat set by this age. He isn't gaining 6" on his vertical and a "step" nor is he going to change how he approaches the game mentally much. My opinion is that he's nearer the top of his abilities not that he's a poor player or otherwise a bust. If people are looking for him to be the Magic, Kareem, West, Kobe or Wilt of the next era I do believe they will be disappointed however. I think he's a 2nd or 3rd piece to a really good team .... not the center piece.
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Re: The Need for 3D1 player 

Post#17 » by warren weel im » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:43 am

Rubio fits one side of the coin, in terms of D, but his non-shooting might mitigate whatever he brings to the table. I do believe that a distributor like Rubio could potentially help Russell as well (so he can focus on his own offense) rather than having to worry about feeding others.

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