Julius Randle: Why so much hate?

[Kilroy]

Weaknesses that he had as a rookie (undersized, insufficient length, inconsistent effort, lack of shooting, lack of post-up, not great screens, lack of right hand, lack of interior and perimeter defense) are still there.

Heck a lot of the time, most of the assists he gets are from perimeter handoffs.

Impending 2018/19 payday to muck up the 2018 plan really caps it off.

At least he's in shape for preseason, he really needs to show something

How can that be a negative? Part of the handoff is him using his body and footwork to clear space for the shooter. It's brilliant, and no one benefited more from it than Russell. No he has Ball, KCP and Ingram he can assist in the same way, not to mention Lopez...

He doesn't shoot many 3s but his eFG last season was .499... For reference, Dray Green's eFG was .481 on lower Volume and more minutes. So it's safe to say Randle shoots just fine for "Walton's System"... Dray shoots more 3s but his percentage is only .308...
And that's with 5 seasons under his belt.

And Dray shoots like 99% of the time with his dominant hand too...

Randle's job was to distribute from the perimeter. When he got into the post, which was extremely rare, he did OK but that wasn't really his role.

Effort is subjective... How much effort should the second or even first best player on the court any given night, put in on a team that was clearly tanking? He may not be a hustle guy but he's clearly effective... 16.3 PER on a bottom feeder team...

Obviously, Dray is a better defender, but he's also on a much better team that understands how to play excellent team D. So he has help. Randle was pretty much the only person even trying to play D in the starting lineup last season.

Randle has room for improvement obviously, but he's only 22, only starting his 3rd year in the league, and is already a top 20 to 25 PF...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2683788-nba-player-power-rankings-brs-top-30-power-forwards-at-the-halfway-point
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

And he has gotten better each season so far. Not sure how that's even arguable.

He's going to get paid what he's going to get paid... But I think you need a guy like him on this team. They can't all be finesse 3pt shooters... Which is why they got KCP and why we need Randle.

[mcscotty]

Unless he lights it up this year, I'm thinking Julius will accept the QO. The market for bigs is really soft ATM. Look at Nerlens Noel's situation in Dallas. Management can afford to play hard ball, because no suitors are knocking.

[Spens1]

Elite players my ass...

Can't shoot, can't defend, can't protect the rim, questionable basketball IQ.


This are the areas a PF should work on. Yeah, he can rebound, I'll give him that, but it's not enough.
The fact that he's able to handle the ball and pass is sooooo overrated for a big, if he can't do squat of the other basic things.



It's like a goalkeeper who's good with his passing game, but sucks at his actual **** job, preventing goals.

this.

What we have with him is essentially Claudio Bravo.

[Dr Aki]

Weaknesses that he had as a rookie (undersized, insufficient length, inconsistent effort, lack of shooting, lack of post-up, not great screens, lack of right hand, lack of interior and perimeter defense) are still there.

Heck a lot of the time, most of the assists he gets are from perimeter handoffs.

Impending 2018/19 payday to muck up the 2018 plan really caps it off.

At least he's in shape for preseason, he really needs to show something

How can that be a negative? Part of the handoff is him using his body and footwork to clear space for the shooter. It's brilliant, and no one benefited more from it than Russell. No he has Ball, KCP and Ingram he can assist in the same way, not to mention Lopez...

He doesn't shoot many 3s but his eFG last season was .499... For reference, Dray Green's eFG was .481 on lower Volume and more minutes. So it's safe to say Randle shoots just fine for "Walton's System"... Dray shoots more 3s but his percentage is only .308...
And that's with 5 seasons under his belt.

And Dray shoots like 99% of the time with his dominant hand too...

Randle's job was to distribute from the perimeter. When he got into the post, which was extremely rare, he did OK but that wasn't really his role.

Effort is subjective... How much effort should the second or even first best player on the court any given night, put in on a team that was clearly tanking? He may not be a hustle guy but he's clearly effective... 16.3 PER on a bottom feeder team...

Obviously, Dray is a better defender, but he's also on a much better team that understands how to play excellent team D. So he has help. Randle was pretty much the only person even trying to play D in the starting lineup last season.

Randle has room for improvement obviously, but he's only 22, only starting his 3rd year in the league, and is already a top 20 to 25 PF...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2683788-nba-player-power-rankings-brs-top-30-power-forwards-at-the-halfway-point
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

And he has gotten better each season so far. Not sure how that's even arguable.

He's going to get paid what he's going to get paid... But I think you need a guy like him on this team. They can't all be finesse 3pt shooters... Which is why they got KCP and why we need Randle.

a lot of the time, the creating space wasn't there either, the hand off was a simple hand off and russell or young or whoever was doing a lot of the work. this is where the effort part of the equation comes in, i just saw that russell or young or lou could've had more time and space to get a better shot. other times, it was randle on the break to a trailer, which was nice, so he gets credit for that. hopefully we'll see that a hell of a lot more seeing as we're bound to have way more transition opportunities this year, i don't think he'll ever be as good as odom though

on defense, i get that he tries, sometimes. this was a problem for everyone though and this criticism is laid out on everyone, but for randle, it was magnified. it's often not entirely his fault, but the bigs were very often holding the bag at the end of possessions where the perimeter defender died on the screen and the bigs weren't quick enough to stay in front of defenders, and as a result, it was easy shot after easy shot. in this day and age, if your 21 yo power forward can't play competent defense on the perimeter, it's pretty much a given he'll be a negative perimeter defender his whole career. i'm holding out that the culture changes around defense as well (offense wasn't an issue last year, it was always defense that will define how far the team will go)

so hopefully randle will start to "get it" this year, his cost-controlled deal is overall positive at the moment, considering the only positive value attribute is his rebounding, he fills that niche, however this all changes in 2018 when he's due for a big payday.

i'm sure you'll find that 3 years ago when we picked him #7, these were all the same issues that were apparent at the time, an undersized bully-ball PF with comparatively short arms, with not much shooting and not much defense. we wanted randle to carve out a niche in the league, develop a positive-value NBA-level skill and it seems as if the only ones he has (rebounding, energy (but not concentration)) are still the only ones he already had coming out of kentucky

so yes, you can infer that i'm disappointed in julius, sure he's improved from his rookie year to his 2nd year through the dysfunction, but now he's onto his 3rd year, i'd like to have the problem of wanting to keep him over his 12.45 mil cap hold, not concocting trades to dump deng with randle as the bait

[TKainZero]

His lack of improvement in his 2nd season

Combined with him coming up for a new contract

[Tzar]

He has trouble keeping his dribble. Very clumsy with the ball. Mediocre vision. Puts head down an often looks to score on the break. Can't shoot, so he can't stretch the floor at all, which leads to spacing nightmares on offense.

He's a really really poor defender - one of the worst defenders that I've seen at the NBA level actually. Poor footwork on D, short arms so he doesn't alter shots, does not give effort on the defensive end. Consistently lets players beat him both off the dribble and down low. Really weak help defender. Zero shot blocking threat.

He really only has two plus skills: rebounding and muscling weaker players into easy buckets. He has almost zero "feel" for the game. He really hasn't committed any post moves or dribble-drive moves to memory. Inconsistent motor. Zero touch around the rim. Low BBIQ.

I'm hoping Lonzo puts him in his right "role." A guy who can simply run the break and get easy dunks/layups in transition. He's almost useless in the half-court and he's a defensive liability.

The only way he'd ever have value on a winning team is if he was a plus defender, which, if current indications hold true, he'll likely never be.

[GaryDags]

What would the QO be next season? If he accepted the QO early in the off season would this lower the cap hold to allow for two maximum contract guys to be signed (nine year vet max)? Assume the Lakers traded Clarkson with no money coming back and stretched Deng's contract.

Unless he lights it up this year, I'm thinking Julius will accept the QO. The market for bigs is really soft ATM. Look at Nerlens Noel's situation in Dallas. Management can afford to play hard ball, because no suitors are knocking.

[Dr Aki]

What would the QO be next season? If he accepted the QO early in the off season would this lower the cap hold to allow for two maximum contract guys to be signed (nine year vet max)? Assume the Lakers traded Clarkson with no money coming back and stretched Deng's contract.

Unless he lights it up this year, I'm thinking Julius will accept the QO. The market for bigs is really soft ATM. Look at Nerlens Noel's situation in Dallas. Management can afford to play hard ball, because no suitors are knocking.

5.56 mil

I highly doubt we're going to convince him to take the QO.

[MAMBAEMD]

I like Julius and haven't given up on him at all.
I have seen improvement in his game from year to year.
He works hard on offense and defense, although he can definitely improve on both sides of the ball.
I can't wait to see him this year with Ball running the offense.
He is in a contract year and is likely to get a large deal.
Depending on what happens with FAs next year , we'll have to see what we can do to keep him.
It will depend on who we get as an FA in 2018.
If it's PG and possibly Westbrook, I'd try to keep Randle.
If it's PG and LBJ, we may need to trade him.
If it end up that none of them come here, we'd almost for sure need to keep Randle.

[GaryDags]

What would the QO be next season? If he accepted the QO early in the off season would this lower the cap hold to allow for two maximum contract guys to be signed (nine year vet max)? Assume the Lakers traded Clarkson with no money coming back and stretched Deng's contract.

Unless he lights it up this year, I'm thinking Julius will accept the QO. The market for bigs is really soft ATM. Look at Nerlens Noel's situation in Dallas. Management can afford to play hard ball, because no suitors are knocking.

5.56 mil

I highly doubt we're going to convince him to take the QO.

I agree it is highly unlikely that he would accept the QO. I know there are major concerns with his overall game; I just have this feeling he is going to be better over the next 3 - 4 seasons. Better in a way where he can be a key contributor on a winning basketball team. His restricted FA just comes at an inopportune time for the two max FA plan (summer 2018).

[Pythagoras]

I think Randle has a ton of untapped potential as a shooter. In the final month of the season last year, he shot .348 on 1.6 3 pt attempts per game. The pre-draft scouting reports I read on him all said that scouts felt he had untapped potential as a shooter. I'd like to see what he's capable of now that he'll be playing with an elite passer like Ball. As much as I loved, and still love D'Lo, he's just not on Ball's level as a pure passer.

[dAdo dA dEvil]

The problem with Randle is that he can't walk the talk. This off season is almost the same as last year's. We hear / see about him really working hard to get in shape and stuff like that but I personally felt that he came up short of my expectation last year. He could give you an excellent game once in a while but he is really inconsistent the whole season.

This season is his last chance to prove himself. He has the tools. He just needs to have that concentration and focus. He needs to step it up because if he continues to be the same player like he is now then I'm pretty sure Nance or Kuz could take that starting spot away from him and he could be gone with Deng before the trade deadline.

One thing I like about him though is that he is a no push over. He ain't backing down from opponents. I just wish he step it up a notch or else he's good as gone.

[aaron_gray]

This topic has been bouncing around from thread to thread. I've spoke on it a couple of times and already silenced one non-believer. But, why does everyone feel like we need to get rid of him? Why isn't he a part of our long term plans? He has a skill set that is rare in the NBA and is only found among elite players...
I never would've thought so many people would be down on him, he's played good for us he's gotten in shape and I believe he's going to have a breakout season.
According to this board Laker Nation seems split on him. Let's talk about it...


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Probably either a troll or Mirja alt but I'll bite. My dude, if by "one non-believer" you mean me and by "silenced" you mean the fact that I didn't respond to your post on the trade thread then yes, you did silence a non-believer by demonstrating the fact that you have yet to acquire a basic level of knowledge needed to have a semi-intelligent discussion. In your post, you essentially described the abilities of Lebron James then proceeded to attach Randle's name to it before comparing Julius to Anthony Davis, KAT, Blake Griffin and more. Demeaning other users on an anonymous forum looks even more ridiculous and cringe worthy if you can't pass the basic sniff test of whether or not you actually watch basketball. To play devil's advocate, if Randle's going to be a lock for the HOF as well as a perpetual MVP candidate, why even bother entertaining an aging Lebron?

Being a sensitive keyboard warrior doesn't bring me any material benefits. I'm posting this because there's a chance you stick around in the future and continue to contribute to the forum. Not saying you do this but stuff like labeling other users as haters, tooting your own horn or things along those lines don't do anything except drag down the quality of the discussion. Just look at anytime milesfides posts original content - he puts a lot of thought into them but his ad hominem attacks will sour the mood considerably. No one can stop you from doing it, but you make it less fun for everyone else that comes here to talk hoops in whatever little spare time we have.

[aaron_gray]

With his impending extension, he doesn't really have the luxury of wait and see anymore. It's a big year for him, front office is going to have to make a decision on what he is rather than when they hope he'll become. Can't have a 2018 cap plan and also be paying Randle for potential.

In judging what he is right now, would it be wrong to say that Randle is a...

Above average rebounder
Above average ball handler
Above average passer
Average face up game
below average shooter
below average rim protector
below average post defender
below average perimeter defender (good when effort is there though)
below average post threat
Below average screen setter
Below average off ball movement

I mean, when you're looking at someone who isn't a center who has so far shown to be a below average shooter and a below average defender, that's something you simply can't build a contender with.

Hopefully the story is different this year but is it really hate if someone points out that some of the more critical skills needed at pf are some of his biggest weaknesses?

I knew when I saw that you posted in a thread titled "Julis Randle: Why so much hate?" that you'd be biased and essentially trash him, however, I didn't think you'd exaggerate the truth so far as so say that he's aan above average passer and ball handler. From that point, I stopped reading. If you compare him to Chris Paul, sure he's an above average ball handler, but for a big? He's elite in both of those categories.And really, above average rebounder? Stop it. Doc... you're losing it.

His post is fairly accurate, although I would say Randle's an above average shooter, above average post defender (his already decent defensive ppp numbers are probably dragged upwards by the fact that Karl-Towns has a ppp of 2 against him), and average rebounder. I described it in more detail here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1537717&start=1400#p57624494

You're always welcome to refute individual points, especially the part about his lack of offensive rebounds.

[DanishLakerFan]

Randle could be a part of the Lakers' long term plans. Unfortunately, for that to happen three things need to happen first.

1. Clarkson has to be traded for an expiring.
2. Deng has to be traded for an expiring.
3. Randle has a break-out year where he outplays the other PFs on the roster while showing improvement defensively and a reliable 3pt shot.

Clarkson's value may increase due to playing next to Lonzo Ball and i expect him to be shipped off before or during the season.
The problem is Deng, whose contract might be tough to move. In fact, even if we see an improvement from Randle i think he might be used as a sweetener in dumping Deng's salary.

If this happens, then there is a chance he is kept.

[aaron_gray]

How can that be a negative? Part of the handoff is him using his body and footwork to clear space for the shooter. It's brilliant, and no one benefited more from it than Russell. No he has Ball, KCP and Ingram he can assist in the same way, not to mention Lopez...

He doesn't shoot many 3s but his eFG last season was .499... For reference, Dray Green's eFG was .481 on lower Volume and more minutes. So it's safe to say Randle shoots just fine for "Walton's System"... Dray shoots more 3s but his percentage is only .308...
And that's with 5 seasons under his belt.

And Dray shoots like 99% of the time with his dominant hand too...

Randle's job was to distribute from the perimeter. When he got into the post, which was extremely rare, he did OK but that wasn't really his role.

Effort is subjective... How much effort should the second or even first best player on the court any given night, put in on a team that was clearly tanking? He may not be a hustle guy but he's clearly effective... 16.3 PER on a bottom feeder team...

Obviously, Dray is a better defender, but he's also on a much better team that understands how to play excellent team D. So he has help. Randle was pretty much the only person even trying to play D in the starting lineup last season.

Randle has room for improvement obviously, but he's only 22, only starting his 3rd year in the league, and is already a top 20 to 25 PF...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2683788-nba-player-power-rankings-brs-top-30-power-forwards-at-the-halfway-point
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

And he has gotten better each season so far. Not sure how that's even arguable.

He's going to get paid what he's going to get paid... But I think you need a guy like him on this team. They can't all be finesse 3pt shooters... Which is why they got KCP and why we need Randle.

Not all assists are created equal. Randle's dribble handoffs worked in part because he did them in transition but also in part because teams just don't care about playing the Lakers. No one's going to be absolutely locked in on D on those plays unless it's a really tight game in the 4th. When you throw in some switching versatility or a defender like Smart that can stick to the guard's jersey, those opportunities will disappear. While they're definitely harder than they look, I'd also argue that those transition handoffs are an easily replaceable skill. You don't think Nance or Kuzma could do the same thing on much cheaper deals? How much additional cap space do you really want to tie up on a guy because he can rebound, dribble it up and then set a screen?

Draymond is a dominant player on D - he's a defensive center piece. Comparing these guys in the way you did is like saying KCP should be compared to Steph Curry, except obviously Steph is a better shooter. Green's offense/shooting was honestly a liability during the regular season;something that his defense made up for rather than get complemented by. It doesn't add any additional credibility to the fact that Randle is a passable player on offense (though the stats say he did quite a lot less than OK in the post). We already know he is for a fact. The problem is, he's not elite on that side of the floor and it's highly unlikely he will be despite his upcoming contract situation. He could make up for it by being Dray on defense, but that'll be up to him to utilize his tools effectively in a contract year.

That bleacherreport is also really, really bad (at first I thought it was written in reverse), not to mention the fact that being a top 25 PF in a 30 team league simply means you're a bottom tier starter.

[Mirjalovic]

Randle improved a lot in his 2nd season. Toned down bonehead plays, toned down wild drive to the basket, willing to shot more, and not trying to steals rebound from Mozgov or Zubac. If you watch the stats yeah, but if you watch the game, he has the most growth compared to Russell (still the same scoring guard with avg three point shooting) or Clarkson (even regress in playmaking).

His handoff assist still handoff assist and Brook Lopez and Ball will feast on it.

Sometimes you need out of the box players not just the simple shooter. Yes Kuzma shows promise but he's a rookie and we can't afford to lose NBA ready player with alot potential to go.

[Slava]

The market for big men is so low that I'd be tempted to keep him and see if we can resign him cheaply next year. Jamychael Green and Pat Patterson who are both close examples to Randle are either still unsigned or settled for the MLE. Even Nerlens Noel cannot leverage a RFA offer sheet to get some leverage on Dallas. Randle's options would narrow even further if he cannot shoot or defend consistently.

[BlackieMamba]

This topic has been bouncing around from thread to thread. I've spoke on it a couple of times and already silenced one non-believer. But, why does everyone feel like we need to get rid of him? Why isn't he a part of our long term plans? He has a skill set that is rare in the NBA and is only found among elite players...
I never would've thought so many people would be down on him, he's played good for us he's gotten in shape and I believe he's going to have a breakout season.
According to this board Laker Nation seems split on him. Let's talk about it...


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Probably either a troll or Mirja alt but I'll bite. My dude, if by "one non-believer" you mean me and by "silenced" you mean the fact that I didn't respond to your post on the trade thread then yes, you did silence a non-believer by demonstrating the fact that you have yet to acquire a basic level of knowledge needed to have a semi-intelligent discussion. In your post, you essentially described the abilities of Lebron James then proceeded to attach Randle's name to it before comparing Julius to Anthony Davis, KAT, Blake Griffin and more. Demeaning other users on an anonymous forum looks even more ridiculous and cringe worthy if you can't pass the basic sniff test of whether or not you actually watch basketball. To play devil's advocate, if Randle's going to be a lock for the HOF as well as a perpetual MVP candidate, why even bother entertaining an aging Lebron?

Being a sensitive keyboard warrior doesn't bring me any material benefits. I'm posting this because there's a chance you stick around in the future and continue to contribute to the forum. Not saying you do this but stuff like labeling other users as haters, tooting your own horn or things along those lines don't do anything except drag down the quality of the discussion. Just look at anytime milesfides posts original content - he puts a lot of thought into them but his ad hominem attacks will sour the mood considerably. No one can stop you from doing it, but you make it less fun for everyone else that comes here to talk hoops in whatever little spare time we have.

Way too emotional of a response. Sound butt hurt a little. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I hope you're ok... I'm not an alt I'm my own person. I didn't say anything that wasn't true, you did stop responding after I acknowledged the pros and cons of your argument and then made a thoughtful reply to your post. In turn you ignored what I said and only sought to prove yourself right instead of acknowledging the points that I made and debating them.
Also I never mentioned LeBron James... I clearly stated big men with playmaking ability, I reiterated that statement by EXCLUDING 3s with that ability that sometimes play the 4. Also I never mentioned Randle was a HOF or MVP candidate, that just further shows how you will exaggerate someone's position to make it seem as if you're right, instead of just having a logical discussion on what was actually said...
It's ok though play the victim, I have nothing to prove. Throw insults by saying I obviously don't watch basically or can't pass the sniff test, whatever that is... We have a difference in opinion on Julius Randle, we can discuss that, if you dont want to I won't engage in an internet feud with a stranger over something silly likes this.


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[Pointgod]

I'm still trying to get a clear answer regarding how we can keep randles cap hold and sign two maxes. Would it be possible if we dump clarkson and stretch Deng?



I also do think he'll have his best season next to Lonzo, but I don't think he'll show the improvement in his shooting needed to justify keeping him, and with that 12 million, we can added valuable depth at the guard positions via ring chasers if we were to sign two max guys. I just don't see a space for him on this team if we really are planning on signing Two max guys, which seems to be our plan right now. So either we fail in our plan , or we lose randle. If he comes out and shoes he can make an open three consistently, then we can talk about his future in this team. Until then he is a plan B at best

Right now the Lakers have anywhere from 36M in cap space to 39M. There's no way we can get up to 2 max contracts while keeping Randle without unloading both Deng and Clarkson. There's little belief that we can move both without somehow getting Randle involved. So at the end of the day we need to get creative with how we handle this situation, but if come 2018 and Deng is still on the roster then it's an absolute fail and could possibly cost us Paul George. Randle is not a difference maker and he's not worth losing our best chance to become a playoff contender.