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Horry says Pops tops Phil

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Post#41 » by dockingsched » Wed May 14, 2008 4:11 am

looks like darko is a bust in all facets of life.
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Post#42 » by DarkoMilicic » Wed May 14, 2008 4:13 am

Yup...btw, phil2.0, sent you a PM.
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Post#43 » by LLcoleJ » Wed May 14, 2008 4:23 am

replied to both
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Post#44 » by crazyeights » Wed May 14, 2008 4:58 am

I agree with Horry. I think a lot of players had a problem with how Phil favors Kobe. Such as Brian Shaw telling a story a few games ago about how he went to Phil his first year in LA and asked him why he yells at everyone on the team, but never Kobe...Phil replied that Kobe is always in attack-mode, and how he can never take that away from him, because that's what makes him so great.

Well IMO we lost last game because Phil is afraid to rein Kobe in. He was still in attack mode when we should have been running the offense, instead of ball-watching.

Any time our team goes into overtime it's the same old story. And for that I blame Phil. Not really saying he's better or worse than Pop, I just think that's a valid point that I have noticed by watching over the years.
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Post#45 » by Gerald3Wallace » Wed May 14, 2008 5:12 am

i also have a feeling that...horry is just a suck up and that if he was traded back to the lakers he would say phil is suck a awesome coach
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Post#46 » by Erik Eleven » Wed May 14, 2008 6:05 am

Pops is at the very top of my list. It'd be extremely hard to choose between the two, but if I was forced to at gunpoint, I'd go with Popovic over Phil.

Too bad Horry doo-dooed all over his own words, because now even the good things he said about coach smell like doo-doo. What he ment to say was probably that Popovic deserves to be mentioned among the greats, and I would agree.
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Post#47 » by Gerald3Wallace » Wed May 14, 2008 6:06 am

Erik Eleven wrote:Pops is at the very top of my list. It'd be extremely hard to choose between the two, but if I was forced to at gunpoint, I'd go with Popovic over Phil.


im with you on this too
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Post#48 » by YiYaoYue » Wed May 14, 2008 6:12 am

Seems like Horry disliked being criticized by Phil for not showing up in the season and not yelling at all at Kobe.

I guess Pop could care less about what Horry does in the season and concentrating more on making the stars better. Well guess what Horry, you sucking it up in the playoffs because there is no one yelling at Horry to get his act straight so he could help spurs beat New Orleans.

Eat your words when Lakers become a Dynasty when spurs become nothing but 3 superstars and a bunch of scrubs... oh wait that's what it is right now.
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Post#49 » by Slava » Wed May 14, 2008 6:22 am

Well, the problem is that TD has the opportunity to coast through the regular season while Kobe plays every game like its game 7 of the finals. Which is why Phil wouldn't "coach" Kobe every game, they face so many situations in regular season that there are few things that are pretty new to them.
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Post#50 » by ShowtimeFan » Wed May 14, 2008 6:29 am

I'm sure Pop is better, after all he has what 10, no wait 4 Rings and Phil has 9 (as a Coach)...wait, how is that better?, oh well...

You know Rob was never that good with math, but I will ALWAYS love the him throwing the towel in Ainge's face...
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Post#51 » by LLcoleJ » Wed May 14, 2008 6:31 am

crazyeights wrote:I agree with Horry. I think a lot of players had a problem with how Phil favors Kobe. Such as Brian Shaw telling a story a few games ago about how he went to Phil his first year in LA and asked him why he yells at everyone on the team, but never Kobe...Phil replied that Kobe is always in attack-mode, and how he can never take that away from him, because that's what makes him so great.

Well IMO we lost last game because Phil is afraid to rein Kobe in. He was still in attack mode when we should have been running the offense, instead of ball-watching.

Any time our team goes into overtime it's the same old story. And for that I blame Phil. Not really saying he's better or worse than Pop, I just think that's a valid point that I have noticed by watching over the years.


I think you have skewed the 2 points a bit... re: last game.. Me - you and everyone not a jazz fan were saying.."Kobe , stop shooting.. you are done" Even Phil was yelling to "Run the offense" There were alot of bad decisions going on.

What Shaw was reffering to was effort. Phil can get on just about every player he has coached on the Lakers about their "effort" and or "attack mode" accept Kobe.Phil preaches effort and Kobe gives effort. He might not make the right decisions everytime, but he gives maximum effort all the time. And I dont think you can say that about most players.
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Post#52 » by milesfides » Wed May 14, 2008 6:33 am

^Convincing
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Post#53 » by MAMBAEMD » Wed May 14, 2008 6:43 am

Phil_2.0 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think you have skewed the 2 points a bit... re: last game.. Me - you and everyone not a jazz fan were saying.."Kobe , stop shooting.. you are done" Even Phil was yelling to "Run the offense" There were alot of bad decisions going on.

What Shaw was reffering to was effort. Phil can get on just about every player he has coached on the Lakers about their "effort" and or "attack mode" accept Kobe.Phil preaches effort and Kobe gives effort. He might not make the right decisions everytime, but he gives maximum effort all the time. And I dont think you can say that about most players.


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Post#54 » by bullsaficianado » Wed May 14, 2008 6:50 am

Rox_Nix_Nox wrote:They're both great Coaches.


Yep. They're both great HOF coaches. 2 of the NBA greatest coaches, easily rank in the top 10. Phil just has more bling-bling than Poppovich does.
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Post#55 » by crazyeights » Wed May 14, 2008 7:16 am

Phil_2.0 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think you have skewed the 2 points a bit... re: last game.. Me - you and everyone not a jazz fan were saying.."Kobe , stop shooting.. you are done" Even Phil was yelling to "Run the offense" There were alot of bad decisions going on.

What Shaw was reffering to was effort. Phil can get on just about every player he has coached on the Lakers about their "effort" and or "attack mode" accept Kobe.Phil preaches effort and Kobe gives effort. He might not make the right decisions everytime, but he gives maximum effort all the time. And I dont think you can say that about most players.


I'm not skewing anything. Do you honestly believe Phil has the balls to say "Kobe don't shoot?" Because I don't think he does.

That's just my opinion, but I think he's been extremely lenient with Kobe the past few seasons. I don't care who the player is, sometimes the coach needs to coach.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen bad decisions by Kobe and at the time out Phil just sort of looks away and doesn't seem to confront Kobe about it. I know that they have enough trust in one another and have worked together for long enough where Phil doesn't have to hound him like he might do Lamar or Vlad or Farmar...but it would be nice not having the feeling that Phil cannot say something to Kobe in public.

In my opinion, it is a very sensitive relationship, and rightfully so after Phil trashed Kobe in his book. I imagine there are some trust issues buried deep. Just something I've been sensing for awhile, and I think was illustrated by the fact that Phil worries about Kobe's ego.
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Post#56 » by Kreuk » Wed May 14, 2008 7:27 am

LOL @ guys defending phil jackson like he needs it. if anyone can give an accurate account of who is a better coach (pop or phil), it's Horry.

Horry has been with each coach for a long enough tenure to make a fair assessment.

you may not like his choice of words, but let's be honest - it's true. don't even get me started about how many people here have blasted phil for lack of timeouts, lack of defense, lack of altering game strategy, lack of lack of lack of etc... and how many times have we talked about phil being plain out-coached? or talked about his perplexing substitution patterns?

one thing you can usually say about phil's teams that you will never say about pop's is that phil's teams lack discipline.

what would pop have done with kwame or smush? well, they probably wouldnt even be playing with their level of effort. there's your answer to that.

does phil have more rings than pop? duh... maybe that makes him a better coach in some people's eyes...

i think as far as fundamentals, defense, etc. go, pop is a far better coach.

horry said it. he probably shouldnt have... he could saved himself by saying phil is a better coach than rudy t... and then he would have pissed off some obsessed houston fans... sometimes you cant win.

i still love ya big shot rob.
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Post#57 » by Slava » Wed May 14, 2008 7:35 am

I've never seen Phil being out coached like you put it. Not an instance..

Lack of time outs? May be yes, lack of preaching proper defense, yes he's been a offense oriented coach and I like his style more than a JVG or Pops' style.
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Post#58 » by milesfides » Wed May 14, 2008 7:39 am

Actually, I think Phil publicly has more or less criticized some bad decisions by Kobe. But why should he single out Kobe, call him out? Does he do that to any player?

I think it's ridiculous to allege that Phil doesn't coach Kobe. Because there has been a dramatic change in Kobe's play this year. And while one could dismiss that as a natural consequence of better teammates, that would be ignoring both Phil and Kobe's comments about Kobe's role changing. Phil even reportedly asked Kobe to change certain things about his workouts. Kobe said, "I play to please him." So I'd think your assumptions are based on sheer speculation.

As a coach, he recognizes the larger problems, and if even we fans could see that we lost as a team, not because of one guy or one bad play, I'm sure Phil Jackson could see it as well.

Also, you're so fixated on this Kobe thing that you're missing Phil Jackson's style. This guy is infamous for not calling timeouts. He's intent on giving Radmanovic a billion chances. That he doesn't grab Kobe by the collar and shout, "stop shooting, you fool!" is hardly a surprise.

And finally, you're wrong about Phil Jackson's balls. He has them. He benched Kobe this year when Kobe wasn't following the game plan.

And lastly, I'd like to suggest that Sunday wasn't an example of Kobe shooting us out of the game. It was a team offense breakdown, and his teammates didn't cut and move as they did all year. Kobe was a willing passer (10 assists), and numerous times, he was looking to make plays that never materialized.

He took some bad shots, no doubt, but his main problem down the stretch was not knowing his limitations caused by his injury. He was still trying to do the right thing, but it was a mistake of him shouldering the load when his body wasn't capable of it, and it was his teammates's responsibilities for standing by and expecting him to do it.

If you want to criticize Phil Jackson's coaching, you shouldn't single out how he coaches Kobe, but the entire team. He tries to develop the character of the team, resilience and resourcefulness. Sometimes it means letting go and allowing the team to come through at the moment of truth. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

This is a guy who won six rings, a guy who wanted to trade Kobe before, who strongly stated his job wasn't tied to Kobe's future. Who also said that whether Kobe plays on Wednesday or not, he's focused on preparing the team.

You can disagree with his overall coaching style, but you can't say he's afraid to coach Kobe.
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Post#59 » by MAMBAEMD » Wed May 14, 2008 7:45 am

I don't remember Phil being outcoached as badly or as frequently by other coaches as has been suggested here.

By the way, how have these two fared against each other in playoff series?

I think they have met 4 times this decade and Phil has a 3 to 1 edge over Popovich.
Not exactly outcoached I would say....
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Post#60 » by LLcoleJ » Wed May 14, 2008 7:47 am

crazyeights wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I'm not skewing anything. Do you honestly believe Phil has the balls to say "Kobe don't shoot?" Because I don't think he does.


well, if you are going to infuse Shaws statements to the last game then I think you are skewing. Do I think Phil has the balls to say..Kobe stop shooting? yes. Does he word it that way? No. I dont think any coach does. He was overheard on national TV yelling "Run the offense" that means dont iso and move the ball. The team didnt, Kobe didnt. However, that has little to do with Shaws comments. IIRC , Shaw was speaking on when he was playing with Kobe?

That's just my opinion, but I think he's been extremely lenient with Kobe the past few seasons. I don't care who the player is, sometimes the coach needs to coach.


Or Kobe has been a key part to his success. Look, I am not going to sit here and say Phil doesnt coddle his stars. Part of the issues in the Shaq v. Kobe era was the fact that Phil leaned more toward Shaq and Kobe felt isolated. Subsequent breakdowns and books have followed.

However, Kobe and Phil have reconciled and they are now in this together. There is a new chapter in the Phil v. Star and it is working well. Again, I want Kobe to stop jacking up shots at times like the rest of us.. however that is not the way Phil coaches.

He is not a micro-manager. If thats your preference in a coach, ok. I just feel Phil has a method to his madness. If that means he allows Kobe a little more rope and gives other players hell, then fine. His strategies have been effective no matter the "top dog".
Everything he does is with a purpose. Not pacing the sidelines, not calling TO's in the reg season to allow his team to grow and or work through their mistakes and even keeping his number 1 guy close.

Ultimately , Coach Action Jackson is trying to motivate his players and he uses his star ( amongst other things) to try to lift the others up a notch. In this league, one extra notch can be the difference between a trophy and a fishing trip.



I can't tell you how many times I've seen bad decisions by Kobe and at the time out Phil just sort of looks away and doesn't seem to confront Kobe about it. I know that they have enough trust in one another and have worked together for long enough where Phil doesn't have to hound him like he might do Lamar or Vlad or Farmar...but it would be nice not having the feeling that Phil cannot say something to Kobe in public.

In my opinion, it is a very sensitive relationship, and rightfully so after Phil trashed Kobe in his book. I imagine there are some trust issues buried deep. Just something I've been sensing for awhile, and I think was illustrated by the fact that Phil worries about Kobe's ego.


How many times have you seen good decisions by Kobe and Phil gives him praise?

Crazy, I respect your opinion here. I just think that it is east to look at a bad game and make these leaps. I dont see a pattern here of insubordination. Kobe makes bad calls sometimes so does Phil.. but at the end of the day.. this is one of the most effecient offenses in the game that moves the ball very well. I can only look to records and W.s at this time to know what kind of Coach he is.
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