Would you guys trade Bynum for anyone in the whole league?

[semi-sentient]

what exactly is immature about bynum? the fact that he took kobe's criticisms and turned it into nothing but compliments and on the court results for the team leader?

No, it's the fact that he's still 20 years old. By immature, I mean he's just not as mature as Gasol, and you can tell by his body language out on the floor. I think this is to be expected because like I said, he's only 20 years old. I certainly don't expect him to act like a veteran, but that is one aspect that favors Pau.

[TyCobb]

Wow, that's worse than the Gasol trade.

[bigbreakfast]

Bynum is not TD. At his age TD had better skills and footwork, Bynum is raw in comparison at the same age. If I'm the Lakers, I wouldn't. He's not good enough to get a team changing type of player in return, but too talented and young to give up for anything else.

And Bynum isn't the 3rd best center in the NBA. It's (timmy), d12, yao, (amare), maybe gasol for the top tier of centers (parenthesis since timmy and amare weren't really all time centers). I'd put Bynum in the 2nd short list of centers, along w/ kaman, bogut, camby. I also wouldn't trade him for any one of those 2nd tier centers listed, but if I can get one of those top tier centers in return, I would gladly do it.

[Erik Eleven]

My guess;

Bynum is going nowhere.


We have a very nice rotation of bigs in Gasol, Bynum, Turiaf. Add a veteran like Kurt Thomas for the MLE, and we'll have maybe the best rotations of bigs in the league. Why on earth would they entertain trading Bynum

[blix]

The wildcard here is that Bynum, at 20, still hasn't returned from a knee injury in January that was supposed to last 8 weeks.

Can't ignore that.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Agreed.

How will it effect his confidence? His aggressiveness? Will it bother him in the future? Those are all questions that won't be answered until we get through next season.

Regardless, I look at Pau through his career and see that he's been relatively injury free, averaging 72 games a season (3 seasons of 80+ games, 1 of 78 games). I see him as being more durable in the long run due to his playing style, which I think is a big plus for a team that's been hit with the injury bug over the past 3-4 seasons.

I should note that as of right now, the list of players that I would trade Bynum for is very limited, primarily because we don't have a real need to trade him. Unless D12, LeBron, or some other unlikely player is offered for Bynum (+filler), we need to keep him and see how he bounces back next season. That will tell us whether or not we should go forward with resigning him for serious chedda.

[Dexmor]

I take the healthy prime allstar at around 27 with our core compared to a guy who might be a star or mightbe a never was because of his knee. I go with the safe pick.

[Sedale Threatt]

The wildcard here is that Bynum, at 20, still hasn't returned from a knee injury in January that was supposed to last 8 weeks.

Can't ignore that.

Not only that, he has yet to dominate, or even play well, for an entire season. Consistency is a hallmark of true greatness, and Andrew has yet to pass this test. For all we know, Andrew might have bottomed out in February or March. I doubt it, but you never know.

The original post was so broad that the entire discussion is almost moot. Are we talking long-term potential? Are there any parameters on the potential trade subjects? Not very well-framed.

Simply because he's a potential franchise 7-footer, traditionally the most treasured and valuable commodity in basketball, I'd bend over backwards to keep Andrew and see how he develops. He's already proven he can play at a very high level. Now he just needs to prove he can do it every night, and stay healthy.

But if we had the opportunity to augment our team with a young, proven All-Star like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard? I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd probably even take an older vet like Tim Duncan or Dirk Nowitzki, if the present was all we were worried about.

But again, what exactly are the parameters here?

[Erik Eleven]

The wildcard here is that Bynum, at 20, still hasn't returned from a knee injury in January that was supposed to last 8 weeks.

Can't ignore that.

With all due respect, blix,

So you're saying that since the trade value of possibly the most promising young center in the game is low right now, we should trade him? In that case, wouldn't it be smarter to wait until his value is higher again?

Due to his injury situation, we have a golden opportunity to extend him for a long term, cheaper deal. We must take it. This is an absolute no-brainer to me. I'd be utterly shocked if they traded him at this point.

[Dexmor]

I was not high off coke when I wrote that post but I am ignorant to the injury. I have no idea how bad the knee is. If the knee is fine then that list is shorter and I made the list which is the top superstars which is about 12 players and Bynum is not a top 12 superstar. The players I listed on the if Bynum is healthy list Mitch would probably agree you have to take those guys.
You guys are very into him being young but that whole being 20 thing losses it's value or at least alot of it when they have injury problems.
Guys who are 23-30 and are healthy and in there prime and have healthy allstar years and career are better.

Bynum Over Gasol? That is insane. We were good with Bynum but we became the #1 team in the West with Gasol and we are about to win a championship. If you give us Bynum back and take away Gasol I am not so sure that happens.
Now if you win more games and are better with Gasol think how much better you would be with Howard over Bynum or Bosh yet alone a Wade or Lebron or Deron Williams or Chris Paul.
If Bynum stayed healthy he would have probably been an allstar but no mvp candidate. That is what some of these guys are.

Our future is now and the next 6 years. Kobe's prime and until the next 10 years is it. The most important thing is not what will we have in the year 2018.

[blix]

-= original quote snipped =-



With all due respect, blix,

So you're saying that since the trade value of possibly the most promising young center in the game is low right now, we should trade him? In that case, wouldn't it be smarter to wait until his value is higher again?

Due to his injury situation, we have a golden opportunity to extend him for a long term, cheaper deal. We must take it. This is an absolute no-brainer to me. I'd be utterly shocked if they traded him at this point.

Not saying that at all - but you can't ignore that his recovery time - so far - is twice what it was supposed to be. And he's very young.

What I'm saying is, I can't paint the broad brush and just universally say "I wouldn't trade him for anyone, because he's a true back to the basket center" or something like that....because that's not taking everything into consideration. Couple that with the fact that we know Pau works, and we don't know that Pau/Bynum does - it's hardly a no-brainer.

I'm not giving up on him, I'm not off of his bandwagon - I'm just saying I won't let reality get in the way of what I want to happen. I want him to come back 100%, seamlessly fit into the scheme, and help us build a dominating roster for the next 10 years.......that knee scares the $hit out of me.

EDIT: And my argument is based on trading him period....not when. It's going to be a roll of the dice either way not knowing how his situation plays out. I don't want to trade him - but if Chicago offered #1 and Deng I would think long and hard about it if I were LA, because it's already taking longer than expected - if he comes back and has chronic problems, we'd never get an offer like that again.

[Dexmor]

star?

u serious??

u would consider bynum for redd??

the only player i would consider is bron, dwight, or cp3.

jordan almost averaged 40 a game...with pippen next to him so how is he not a better scorer than kobe?? averaged 29 as a rookie...and put up 23 5 5 as a 39 year old..

not to mention they allowed hand checking back then...so it was a lot harder to score..jordan in his prime would demolish people in the league today...i was easily convinced when he owned people at 39...

Seriously? O.K. Jordan didn't have Pippen on his team that year and it was only 1 year when he got 37, he had no teammates when he came close to 40 and back then there might have been handchecking but the defense was nowhere near as sophistacted as it is now. There wasn't an allstar he had to guard on almost every team at the 2 guard. There was no pf's who can double that were like a KG or Wallace who were 7 feet and athletic. The scores were also higher back then so it was easy to score more, there was more assists and rebounds to which is why not to long before that a pg averaged a triple double.
Kobe was 17 as a rookie so he couldn't average 29 and he also had Shaq and was a second option.
When Kobe was on the selfish side he almost averaged 37 and if he wasnt always called selfish and shot more he could of. The man scored 81 points in a game for godsakes.
Now he plays very unselfishly and is the playmaker and basically scores in the second half or sometimes the 4th and still gets 30. He is getting 32 in the playoffs.
There is nothing Jordan can do that Kobe can't and there are things that Kobe can do that Jordan can't like hit the 3.
If Jordan was the same age as Kobe and playing right now he would be the 2nd best player in the league. If he had a good team him and Kobe would go back and fourth win the mvp.

[milesfides]

It's not about room for improvement (potential), but results. Right now, we know how good we are with Gasol as the 2nd option. There is no doubt who has been the better fit. I'm not saying Gasol should be a permanent replacement for Bynum, but if there was a choice to be made RIGHT NOW, it would be Gasol. I'm pretty damn sure most everyone within the Lakers organization would feel the same, Kobe in particular.

We know exactly what we get from Gasol for the next several seasons, and you don't waste that with Kobe in his prime for someone who put together a couple of weeks worth of great games.

Yes we do, and what we know is that Gasol is an excellent offensive player - when he's not playing against good defensive teams. We also know he plays worse in the playoffs this year and for his career, and that he's not a great rebounder period.

I want to reiterate that I'm not downplaying Gasol's contributions. We would not be in the Finals without Gasol. However, as I argued in my previous post, I believe we would have gotten here with Bynum as well.

And while Gasol's maturity as a player can be extolled, the downside is that he's maxed out as a player, while Bynum has still a ton of potential left. Is Gasol going to hit the weights and finally put on some muscle at 28 years old? Is he going to start cleaning the glass and become an intimidating defensive presence? No, I don't think so.

Will Bynum develop a couple post moves? Yes, and then it's over for the league.

Maturity is great and all, but maturity doesn't help Pau when he gets pushed around. How did his mature game show when he continues to throw weak ass shots around the rim?

He averaged that over, what, 5 games? That's not enough to convince me that Bynum is worth choosing over someone who has been putting up solid numbers for multiple seasons and has been the 1st option on another team. Nevermind the experience and IQ advantages that Pau has.

Ok, first of all, Pau hasn't been a very good 1st option, which is why everybody is acknowledging he's better as a 2nd option. Second, let's take the entire season into account.

Gasol: 18.8, 7.8, 1.6 in 34 minutes.
Bynum: 15.5, 12, 2.4 (actual numbers: 13, 10, 2 in less than 29 minutes).

Even this season, I would argue that Bynum's numbers are better, even considering Gasol's assists. The advantage Gasol has over Bynum is his passing (1.4 more assists, adj for min), but then again, we haven't used Bynum in that high post, since Bynum's game and future is low post play. And the ability to score in the low post, as we've seen in the playoffs, is considerably more valuable against elite defenses.

Well then, why not just get rid of Gasol since it was everyone else but him that's responsible for our ridiculous run since he was traded here?

Yes, because that's what I've been arguing, right?

Seriously though, Odom became much better because he played off of the additional attention that Gasol attracted. That's what has made him so effective.

I think Gasol helps alleviate the pressure, which helps Odom psychologically, and probably is responsible for one additional basket from Odom (on that pipe cut). Yet, I think Odom steps up after the all-star break anyways. In fact, Odom had a fine December (15 and 11) playing next to Bynum, it was his January, leading up to the all-star break, where he just played miserably (12 points on 41% shooting). I chalk that up to trade-deadline jitters.

In reality, Odom didn't play out of this world with Gasol's return. He wasn't more aggressive, he actually took fewer shots. It did increase his FG%, but his real impact was on the boards and the hustle categories, which don't really have much to do with Gasol at all. Well actually, Gasol's lack of rebounding probably encouraged Odom to hit the glass harder.

Come on. You're comparing his 5 game average to what Gasol has put up for a season. If Bynum does that for 82 games, then yeah, I'd say he's clearly #2, but until then, it's Gasol.

But as I've showed, I'd take Bynum's numbers right now over Gasol's. I'd take the rebounds and I'd take the shotblocking, I'd take the defensive presence over Gasol's extra 3, 4 points.

Additionally, we don't know what Pau's potential is and whether or not it's been reached as a Laker. It's far too early to tell that, but it doesn't matter because we already know how big of an impact he's had, and that's without even having played in the triangle for a season. Imagine how much more in tune with the team he'll be next season, on both ends...

I don't think our offense has that much more potential. We're already one of the best passing and scoring teams in basketball. What's next, 130 points a game? We've already seen how elite teams will defend us, and that's to push Pau away from the basket and force him and our team to make perimeter shots. So far, Pau hasn't been an answer to that. In the Jazz series, it was Kobe who busted the Jazz's defense and got to the foul line. Pau was getting pushed around. In the Spurs series, it was Kobe who beat the Spurs defense by hitting jumper after jumper. Pau wasn't able to get anything going inside.

so it's never certain who the 2nd option is. I'll give you that Bynum does have some advantages defensively, but that's where it ends. Besides that, are we really hanging our hats on one guy to change the teams defense? I hope not, because it's going to require a team effort. Sure, Bynum can help anchor that defense, but he still has plenty to learn in that department. He's no Kwame Brown, you know.

Yeah, he's no Kwame Brown because Kwame Brown blocks about as many shots as I do. Bynum is an elite shotblocker, already, and it was clear his presence in the middle discouraged and intimidated many teams. How can that be overlooked? Bynum takes up a lot of space, sends shots back, clears the glass. Pau somehow plays much smaller than he is, and despite his decent shotblocking now and then, doesn't discourage anybody from attacking the basket.

We don't know what would have happened if Bynum were here instead of Gasol. The only thing we can really go off of is what Bynum did in the regular season against the opponents we faced in the playoffs, and the numbers aren't all that and a bag of chips:

DEN (2 games): 7.0 PPG (66%), 7.5 REB, 1.0 STL, 2.0 BLK, 1.5 AST, 0.5 TOV
UTA (3 games): 11.0 PPG (57%), 9.3 REB, 0.3 STL, 1.0 BLK, 1.3 AST, 0.3 TOV
SAS (2 games): 8.5 PPG (50%), 11.5 REB, 0.0 STL, 0.5 BLK, 0.0 AST, 1.0 TOV

And forget the discrepancy in minutes? 26 minutes against Denver, 24 against Utah, 26 against the Spurs.

Adjusted to Gasol's minutes in the playoffs, this is how they compare:

Bynum: 11, 11.6, 3
Gasol: 22, 9, 3

Bynum: 19.8, 16.7, 1.8
Gasol: 18.5, 8, 3

Bynum: 12, 16.7, 0.7
Gasol: 13, 9.6, 1.6

Even with the small sample size, Bynum matches up favorably. Bynum only played 2 games against Denver, and one of them was a 2 point, 2 rebound game early in the season. Still, his numbers look pretty good, and some quirks aside (shotblocking), Bynum would have been the better play against Utah and the Spurs.

I won't even waste my time posting what Perkins did to Bynum because that would be downright mean.

Eh, only 2 games, plagued by foul trouble, earlier in the season, and anyways, Perkins is a tough matchup, one that the Lakers aren't even CONSIDERING putting Gasol on.

I don't disagree with that, but it takes more than just defense to win. We happen to have a formula that works, and regardless of how "soft" people claim Pau to be, his defense has been much improved in the playoffs. Our defense as a team is much improved. Do we give all the credit to Kobe? Odom perhaps? Well, it doesn't matter, IMO. What matters is that right now we are getting the job done with what we have, and we are playing some rather solid team defense. Don't believe me? Compare our opponents regular season averages to that of the playoffs. While you're at it, compare team defensive statistics for all teams that made it past the 1st round. We have been one of the better defensive teams in the post-season.

6/16 in opposing team shooting percentage, 12/16 in points given up. That's not being one of the better defensive teams, that's being fairly mediocre.

That's not to be understated. Aren't championship teams usually among the very best defensive teams? And yes, I'd give a lot of credit to Kobe and Odom for our improved defense. And considering Odom played possibly his best series in his career against the Jazz, and Kobe played the best series in his career against the Spurs, I'm not so thrilled about Gasol's mediocre series against those teams.

Yes, and I don't care the least about PER. Here is a list of players that had a higher PER than Kobe this past season:

LeBron James
Chris Paul
Amare Stoudemire
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili

Would you take any of them over Kobe, particularly those that are younger? Outside of James, I don't think I'd consider any of the others. Not for the Lakers, at least.

Well, this is a bit of red herring argument, to bring in Kobe, isn't it? Is PER a definitive measure of a player's worth? No. Is it a fairly good measurement of a player's offensive productivity? Yes.

Kobe Bryant was not the most productive player last year. The PER reflects that. Yet he's still the best player in the league, because he scaled back, he was great on defense, he was a great leader, and he takes over the game when it counts. PER doesn't reflect those attributes.

On the other hand, can we say the same for Gasol? Does PER sell him short? No way. Gasol didn't scale his game back, he doesn't play great defense, and he's not a clutch player, he's not a tough player. PER actually favors guys like Gasol.

And still, Bynum has the better PER.

esus! We already have a guy who cleans up the boards in Lamar Odom, and Pau is a pretty good finisher as it is. You sound like you're getting angry here with all these "soft" comments. Does he need to dunk it with authority to get approval around here? Maybe change the color of his skin? Get a few tattoos and throw up gang signs ala Paul Pierce? You're being a little overly critical of Gasol here, considering where he's helped take us.

Calm down. You're starting to stray away from a basketball argument, aren't you?

It has nothing to do with tattoos or gang signs, it has everything to do with just playing tough. The soft label on Gasol is something that's indisputable, he was soft in Memphis, he's soft in L.A. I'm not holding it against him, I knew this.

But we're comparing him to Andrew Bynum, which is what this thread is about. I love Gasol, but compared to Bynum, yeah, he's soft around the basket and can't come within sniffing distance of Bynum's ability to rebound. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I'm just stating what I see as indisputable facts.

Bynum finishes around the basket with authority, he rebounds and blocks shots on an elite level. Those are his advantages over Gasol, those are things we could use in the playoffs, and aside from Denver, Gasol's game has been limited. Because the playoffs can be a grind it out affair, and as Gasol's playoffs stats show, he struggles in that kind of game.

We can't play Denver all the time. Against the elite teams, against these great defensive teams, Gasol will and continue to struggle, because his strengths can be taken away from him, and his weaknesses are magnified.

It just so happens that Gasol's weaknesses are Bynum's strengths, and I'm thrilled both players have complementary skills. But make no mistake, Bynum's game is suited for the playoffs, it's suited for these slug-fests, it's suited for these gut-check, all-out-wars.

[Erik Eleven]

Point well taken, blix. It's still a gamble I would take any day of the week. His upside in terms of possible dominance could be in the realms of a Tim Duncan or a Hakeem Olajuwan.

Let's just ponder for a moment that he'll go relatively injury free for the two next seasons. We're talking dynasty potential. We must not trade away this opportunity. Taking his recovery in account, this is still a perfect low risk, high reward scenario, in my book.

His injury will help our cap situation when re-signing him. This is still a no-brainer gamble to me. Bynum must stay, in my opinion. But I also think that Bynum and Gasol is a match made in heaven

[Laker1]

Only thing that matters is what Mitch said, "No doubt about it Andrew will our franchise player for the next 15 years."

[TylersLakers]

Obviously the salary cap wouldn't allow it, but Chauncey Billups would be one of the only players, realistically, I would trade him for.

That's about it for now.

[milesfides]

Anyways, ^ that was my last post. This obviously seems like a sensitive issue, since it's almost inevitable that people will have favorites, but I just want to reiterate that this is purely hypothetical either/or situation for me, it's just a mental exercise.

The reality is that neither Gasol nor Bynum will be moved until he we see how the team plays upon his return. And I'm guessing it's going to be spectacular, which again, makes this thread a mental exercise.

On an emotional level, I like both players, I'm not emotionally invested in one more than the other.

Before the season, I did want Bynum traded for Kidd or KG or Gasol. Or even Jermaine O'Neal. And again, I like Gasol's personality, chemistry, more than Bynum's.

But I'd still take Bynum for all the reasons mentioned above. For championships, I take Bynum, even on the eve of the Finals.

That doesn't mean I'll cheer or root for Gasol any less. He deserves a lot of credit for what we've accomplished this season, regardless of the outcome.

But a 20-year-old 7-footer with incredible length and soft hands, who's already among the best rebounders and shotblockers, leading the league in fg%, and yet with still so much potential?

I'll take that every time, no disrespect to Gasol whatsoever.

[Dexmor]

My revised list now that I know Bynum had successful surgery, now keep in mind the sf's I would take over Bynum is for what they would do for Kobe which is most important imo having a defensive wing. Also some of the pg's I take are for letting Kobe stop bringing up the ball. The big men I take over them are just more of a sure thing although Bynum probably has more upside.

1.Lebron
2.Howard
3.Williams
4.Paul
5.Wade
6.Rose
7.Bosh
8.JJ (its what he can do for Kobe)
9.Duncan
10.Iggy- (only because of what he would do for Kobe)
11.Roy- (again mostly cause of what he would do for Kobe, if I was picking 1 player to start a team it would be Bynum over Roy)
12.KG
13.RJ- (Like the other sf's it's what he can do for Kobe)


If I was starting a franchise the list would go like this

1.Kobe
2.Lebron
3.Howard
4.Paul
5.Wade
6.Rose
7.DWilliams
8.Bynum

So I know how great he is but in our situation of needing a sf and pg for Kobe I would take a quite a few players for him.

[theman]

1.Lebron
2.Howard
3.Williams
4.Paul
5.Wade
6.Rose
7.Bosh
8.JJ (its what he can do for Kobe)
9.Duncan
10.Iggy- (only because of what he would do for Kobe)
11.Roy- (again mostly cause of what he would do for Kobe, if I was picking 1 player to start a team it would be Bynum over Roy)
12.KG
13.RJ- (Like the other sf's it's what he can do for Kobe)



So I know how great he is but in our situation of needing a sf and pg for Kobe I would take a quite a few players for him.

What would Pierce or Carmello do for Kobe?

[blix]

Wash his uniform.