"Fake Defense"

[Kilroy]

I forget which announcer it was... But one of them kept harping on the idea that while the Celtics play good solid D, while players like Sasha and Odom, and even Kobe get credit for playing D but are really just playing "fake D."

Now, I'm as defensive as the next Laker fan but I had to admit, after watching the game more closely, there definately is a difference between how we play D and how they did, from an individual player's perspective...

It wasn't just that they played great Team D, it was that they played great man to man D as well. Everyone who played Kobe stuck to him like glue. They rarely got beat off the dribble and were regularly able to cut off lanes... Both driving and passing... They all reacted very well to our different offensive looks...

Our team pestered people on the ball but everyone regularly got beat off the dribble, weren't able to stick with their man, and our team didn't react well to offensive threats. We didn't do a good job of sticking with our man or bodying them up. We slack off and still get blown by.

So what is the fundamental difference? How can we find a way to play lock down D when our offense isn't carrying us?
Is it just that our players aren't really suited to the task of playing solid man-up D? Or is it a coaching difference?

Personally, I think it's a combination of the two... I think our players aren't really defensive specialists so our Coaching staff has to try to adjust to their strengths... Namely, they're long so let them fade off their man and try to block the jumper... And let your amazing offensive production carry you through.

But it didn't work very well against a honest to goodness Defensive force, that can still drop 130 on you any given night.

[hermes]

i think it might have been JVG
anyway when i played basketball in high school (emphasis on when, benchwarmer) i was really good at the fake defense or fake hustle defense

[milesfides]

Well, first of all, the difference between KG and Pau is enormous. You can't compare them defensively, KG was DPOY. And I thought Pau did as well as he could, he just has his limits. That's a major, major difference in the game.

Second, the difference between Paul Pierce and Radmanovic is enormous. You can't compare them offensively or defensively. It was a field day for Pierce on both ends of the floor. And by guarding Radmanonvic, that saved his legs to murder him offensively, or when needed, play defense on Kobe in stretches.

Third, Ray Allen assumed the defensive role with great commitment. He gave it his all trying to stay in front of Kobe, and for the most part, he did a great job. As good of a job as you can. He's no Bruce Bowen, but credit Allen for having the humility to be a role player on offense and embracing a defensive role.

Lastly, the Celtics had other very good defensive players. Perkins is a bull. Posey was always one of the league's best perimeter defenders. Even Rondo has proven to be an absolute thief, setting a Finals record for steals.

And credit Tom Thibodeau for coming up with stifling defensive strategies.

Anybody who thinks this series was just a letdown by the Lakers, I'd suggest looking at what Boston's done all year long, in the regular season and in the playoffs. They were the league's best defensive team - by far. Having great offensive players was just gravy.

Our team was built the other way around. It's not fake defense, it's mediocre defense. Against the Celtics, it looks like terrible defense.

[Kilroy]

^^^ I totally agree...

So given that if we want a championship in the next few years, we're most likely going to have to beat the Celtics, how do we adjust?

I don't think just inserting Bynum in the rotation will be enough. Would coupling that with swapping say Odom for a player like Artest or AK do the trick? Or are more additions/subtractions necessary?

Or do we just need to focus on D more this off-season?

[hermes]

Or do we just need to focus on D more this off-season?

the defense has to be addressed that is for sure

[milesfides]

^I think it's a combination of a lot of factors.

It starts with the coaching staff. Compare what Boston did and what the Lakers did. The fact that Radmanovic continued to start and have a prominent role shows me the Lakers prioritized their offense over their defense. That was a huge mistake.

The coaching staff didn't prioritize defense this year. They need to put the right players on the floor and they need to get their players prepared. That didn't happen. With all due respect to Kurt Rambis, Brian Shaw, Frank Hamblen, and company, the Celtics, Pistons, Spurs, even the Rockets all prepare their teams better defensively. Do we need to add a defensive coach? It would be a good idea, I think. Or they need to just steal what other teams are doing, whatever. But prioritize defense.

Personnel-wise, I think the team needs to cut bait, so to speak, with certain players.

Let's get real - how realistic is it that Radmanovic will develop into a solid defensive player? Cut bait. He's not a starter-caliber player, which is why he can't play starter minutes. He doesn't do enough offensively, and there's no way a championship-aspiring team can get away with his lack of defense at small forward. Most teams have their defensive ace at small forward. This is a huge weakness. Cut bait.

I'm not sure if Odom is right at SF, even defensively. Offensively, he'll have to work on his perimeter game, which he has always struggle with. He looks motivated after losing in the Finals, so we'll see what happens next season. To me, it's a no-brainer that Kirilenko and Artest would be better at the position, but too much depends on the viability of a trade and Buss's willingness to assume luxury tax.

But I think Bynum's presence can't be underestimated. He does what KG does for the Celtics. He can be an intimidating defensive presence, he can block shots, get rebounds. He takes up a lot of space. That could completely change the way a team plays defense.

Just those two changes can be huge.

1) Bynum's return
- If Bynum mans the middle, then KG can't abuse Gasol one-on-one in the post.
- Then KG increasingly would have to rely on his jumper.
- Then Kobe doesn't have to leave his man to double.
- Then we can play straight up and not leave shooters like Allen and Posey open.

2) Replacing Radmanoivc
- If we replace Radmanovic with Kobe, Odom, or any other decent defender, we can play Pierce straight up. Let's be real here, Pierce had a nice series, but he had the weakest defender in the NBA guarding him. And Pierce is an elite offensive player. It was a cake walk for him. Stepping into open threes, driving past Radmanovic or Walton, moving the ball when the defenses are forced to collapse. It was an easy series for Paul Pierce. We need to make it tougher on him, and the first step is replacing him with a defender who can make him work.

But that should be the philosophy. We want to be able to play man defense, and mix it up only if it works to our advantage (disrupting their offense, running traps, full court pressure, etc.). We don't want to go away from man-defense out of necessity. That means our defense is breaking down.

Artest is a great individual defender. He'd be a major help in playing opponents straight up. No way Pierce dances his way to Finals MVP. Kirilenko too, and Kirilenko has the advantage of being both an elite individual and team defender at SF.

But that's what we need to do - prioritize defense. We need to ATTACK teams with our defense. It's needs to be an advantage, a weapon, that we can apply every night.

So, how do we do that?

1. We need to get the right personnel. That falls on Mitch and Buss's shoulders.
2. We need the right philosophy, right strategies, right combinations. Coaching staff.
3. We need players to buy into it, to sacrifice, to take pride in defense. That's on the players.

It's quite telling that after Game 6, the first thing that Doc Rivers gives credit to is DEFENSE. "At the trophy ceremony Tuesday night after taking the NBA title in six games, Celtics coach Doc Rivers said "defense" was his first word to the team. "We play defense, we're going to win a world championship, and that's exactly what they did. They were phenomenal all year." (espn.com)

And the first thing that Kobe talks about is DEFENSE. "KOBE BRYANT: Well, I think if we’re going to learn anything from this series, we can’t expect to win a championship by focusing on the offensive end." (ocregister.com)

[Silvie Lysandra]

Personally, I think Posey solves every problem the Lakers have (so does Artest but he'll be harder to get)

but I doubt Boston just lets him walk.

[hermes]

but what are they going to do with radman, no one will want him- just bury him on the bench?

and if we were to get a defensive coach to come in, who is out there that would be available?

[Sedale Threatt]

but what are they going to do with radman, no one will want him- just bury him on the bench?

and if we were to get a defensive coach to come in, who is out there that would be available?

How about just burying him, period? Or dumping somewhere in the middle of the Pacific? Do you get a salary cap exemption if a players drowns, or otherwise mysteriously disappears? If so, I gladly volunteer to make it happen.

[milesfides]

Radmanovic isn't playing starter minutes anyways. When a starter averages 20 minutes, that tells me he's not a starter caliber player. What business does a bench player who can't play a lick of defense have on the starting lineup of a championship contender? I really don't know. Boston should replace Paul Pierce with Brian Cook, then I'd feel like we'd have equal handicaps.

Whatever we do with Radmanovic, I don't care. We can't be worried about what's good for Radmanovic, we have to worry about what's good for the team. It's up to Radmanovic to adjust, to improve, to work hard, and earn a role with the Lakers.

If no other team wants him, then we need to eat his contract. That's what Buss should do. There's bad contracts on almost every other team. We're way over the cap with or without Radmanovic anyways. And anyways, you reap what you sow. Pay for your mistakes. Radmanovic isn't playing any poorer than he has in his career. He never was a defensive player, he always was a space cadet. I'm just glad he didn't leave at halftime and go up into the stands and eat a banana, like he did with his national team.

Regarding a defensive coach, I don't know. I doubt Jeff Van Gundy works under Phil. And to be honest, the guy who was working under Van Gundy with the Knicks and Houston was...drum roll... Tom Thibodeau, who's credited for Boston's defense. So it seems like the magic man is Thibodeau, who seems to be gaining rock star status among NBA geeks.

Maybe the Lakers coaching staff needs to just re-prioritize, and copy what other teams are doing. They need to do something, though. Because the Lakers players weren't the only ones getting embarrassed on the court.

[MAMBAEMD]

^Great posts by everyone.
I doubt Thibodeau would be allowed to walk althought I think that is exactly where they need to start.
How about Michael Cooper? I think he would be a great assistant coach concentrating on D.

Do it Mitch!

[semi-sentient]

Excellent points, miles.

What are your thoughts on Ariza and how we can use him? He's a better defender/slasher than either Odom or Radman, so assuming no trades are made, would you throw him in the starting lineup?

If it were me, I think I would. Unfortunately, I don't know how Odom would react to something like that. If he's a true unselfish team player as he always claims he is, then he might like a Ginobili-type role off the bench.

I like your points about Bynum and the impact he can have. A guy that anchors a defense the way Garnett does can change the entire mindset of the team. Bynum isn't going to have the impact that Garnett did, but he'll change our defensive philosophy a bit. One of the things I felt about the guys defending Kobe is that they never had to worry about if they got beat or not (and they mostly didn't) because they knew they had some serious inside help waiting. That's what we really need to help prevent guard penetration. That, and having Ariza start ensures that we have good inside/out defense.

Also, this is going to be an unpopular question to ask/answer, but do you think we should give Kwame another shot at LLE, considering his primary focus is defense and he's actually really good at it? I keep bringing Kwame up because I don't see any better options, and playing Turiaf at C (or Mihm) is painful to watch. We could really use a quality backup center so that guys are not constantly playing out of position.

Edit: As I hit this pipe I realize that Odom is not really going to cut it as a 6th man. He's not going to be able to play a Ginobili-type role because he needs help getting his offense on track. I guess that was more along the lines of thinking out loud.

[Fencer reregistered]

I suspect that defense is more a matter of coaching and attitude, while offense is more a matter of talent.

Wally Szczerbiak played better defense on Ray Allen than any Laker did. Think about that one for a moment.

[bakafool]

Sasha ia a perfect example of someone who plays fake D. Lots of pestering that gets nothing done.

[mojo892]

One of the defensive factors that is hard to rate is communication. I saw one of the post game interview sessions with KG and he said it was his job to communicate where each defensive player should be.

It's really not apparent when watching a game on TV if one team is far superior to the other team when communicating, but it should be something to think about. I remember, on more than one occasion in the finals, when Vujacic and Farmar were just yelling at each other about messing up defensive assignments.

I think I've heard Kobe talking about how that it is his responsibility on this team to be the vocal leader, but it really seems like a perimeter player would be at a disadvantage when they can't always see the whole court.

[milesfides]

SS, I think Ariza needed more minutes. I'm not so sure guarding Pierce though. One thing that I haven't seen, to be quite honest, is Ariza the defensive stopper (although the rumors that he stopped KG in one game never dies). Pierce beat Ariza quite easily, and while we can blame that on Ariza's conditioning or whatever, I never really saw Ariza this season or in the past as a lock down defender.

The way he's built is wrong. The strength isn't there, the explosiveness isn't there. He doesn't seem to have lower body strength - never did, he's a skinny dude. He's not low to the ground. He's built like a taller Rondo, Smush Parker even.

He has long limbs and he plays the passing lanes beautifully. I said this earlier, but I thought his proper role would be the rover role, the Rondo/Kobe role (and put Kobe on Pierce instead). I think Ariza's defensive talents would be in that capacity, a disrupter. It could be a great defensive weapon, as we've seen at times.

Offensively, I'm actually surprised at how well he's been shooting the ball. He shot close to 60% in the playoffs! I guess we'd rather prefer the inconsistent shooting from Radmanovic. But yeah, you're right, Ariza would be great running the court, getting out on the break, moving without the ball. Something that Odom doesn't do consistently, something that Radmanovic never does, and something that Walton does - the only problem being that Walton can't make any shots. Walton always gets free in the post, he always gets open shots on the perimeter, but he just can't buy a bucket. He was a profound disappointment, man, tremendous disappointment.

I think Kwame would be a great addition, I agree with you. The guy does play solid post defense. Against guys like Perkins, PJ Brown, even KG, he would discourage a lot of the post action. Nobody would guard him, which is a problem on offense, but he would be great off the bench in limited minutes. Just to stop the bleeding.

On Vujacic, I wouldn't sell him short. Sasha works hard on defense, aside from giving up that drive to Ray Allen. He's good at selling fouls, he just didn't get any respect from the refs. He doesn't just flop, he gets in players' faces, in their heads. His main problem was that he couldn't shoot. He couldn't clam himself down - he was just awful shooting the ball. That affected his defense a bit, and he just never made an impact aside from game 3. He's a young, inexperienced player though, so I wouldn't bury him yet. He's got a great work ethic and he WANTS to play defense, and one can't take that for granted, especially when we have the likes of Radmanovic on the team.

In fact, if we don't get anybody, I would think hard about starting Sasha at 2-guard and Kobe at the three. We saw what Kobe could do in the midrange game against the Spurs - he was devastating. Kobe has always been most productive when there were two other guards on the floor. I just don't like Kobe having to break down defenses by himself and taking too many long range shots.

I think there's a variety of solutions to improve our team. There isn't just one way to skin a cat. But what must change is the defensive philosophy of our team, and defense should be made a priority. There is just no way, to me, that any team interested in defense would start Radmanovic and even have him play a prominent role on the team.

I have been harsh on him for most of his time on the Lakers, sometimes too much perhaps, but I just don't see him as a player I'd want on a championship contending team. He's not reliable, he's not passionate, he doesn't play defense. I might be scapegoating a bit, since while Gasol is soft, I think he played softer than he is (always falling down! c'mon man). Even Odom, the guy started playing with passion AT THE END when the game was out of hand. Where was that all series, bro? And Turiaf, don't get me started. I had high hopes for Turiaf. The guy disappeared. I don't know what happened, maybe he's hurt. But when our team needed some intensity, some physicality, some toughness in the middle, Turiaf was MIA, and when he was on the court, his impact on the game paled to PJ Brown's.

We need to change the half-assedness we go about defense and playing the game. That bothered me the most. Whether it's due to inexperience, youth, or just character, these guys didn't bring it. They didn't play like their lives depended on it.

I think that was the toughest thing to see in our team. There's a reason why we lost by 40 points. The players lost confidence that they could win this game, and it happened in the first quarter.

[semi-sentient]

mojo892: That's a great observation, and I agree completely. Kobe has always been rather vocal out on the court, but I rarely see the same from others on the squad. When guys get beat, they don't call out for help. They simply get beat and the other team scores. It's the reason we got beat so much on the pick and roll, and it's the reason that the Celts got so many uncontested 3's. Communication is huge, but it definitely takes more than just a perimeter player trying to direct where guys need to be. That has to start with your bigs, and I've seen none of that.

[semi-sentient]

miles: I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you stated. Regarding Vujacic, I'm not completely off of his bandwagon just yet. He's shown considerable improvement this season, but I guess his disappointing Finals display is still fresh in my mind. You are right, he does pester the hell out of opposing player, and that's part of what I like about him. He gets in everyones head. I'm really hoping that this playoff experience is going to sink in and improve him as a player, because we absolutely need some outside shooters that can play defense. I'd like to resign him, sure, but I'd be careful not to overpay like we did with Walton and Radman.

Speaking of Walton, you pretty much summed up what my problem with him is. He always gets great opportunities but can't come through. I recall last season (or was it the season before?) that he was among the top 3-point shooters in the league, and I thought, wow... this guy is really getting it done. Now, however, it seems like he is 2nd to none in blown layup / missed wide open 3 opportunities. On the defensive end, I actually think he's pretty good. Not because he has size and strength, but because he's a smart guy. There is no question that he's a high IQ player, so it has to be a confidence issue with him. Hopefully he gets it together because he's pretty much here to stay. He'd be a valuable asset to our bench which tends to struggle at times.

As for Ariza, I've never really seen him as a lockdown defender. Those are very hard to come by. What I think he does is, as you mentioned, play the passing lanes very well. The fact that he's long is of benefit simply because he can contest shots, which always makes the offensive player change direction to account for that. His one-on-one defense hasn't really impressed me all that much (although his block on Pierce was very nice), but I do think he can benefit us if he starts. Regarding his shooting... I think he's been working with Craig Hodges all this time that he's been out. I don't recall where I read or heard that, but if true, then it's understandable why his shot has improved. It's quite obvious to anyone who watch him in his limited time that he's added some range to his jumper. All of his shots looked very good (great rotation, arc). If he can make shots like that at 45% or above, then we have our solution at SF.

[PPAW4Life]

Trust in the defensive system was huge huge problem for the Lakers.

Some players would stay with only their man and in transition wouldn't help cover a teammates man if they had picked up their man. I saw both Odom and Vlad play "no-man's land" defense on transition and covered no body on several plays in Game 6.

Kobe was forced to pickup the guy with the ball and then rotate on the pass to the shooter and even with his athleticism he couldn't close out in time.

Also there was NEVER any help defense when a Laker perimeter defender got beat off the dribble or pinned by a pick. This left Ray Allen too many good looks from 3 land and wide open lanes to the basket for layups.

Yes the Lakers can score....yes they have guys who can shoot....yes Kobe still can score 25 a game against great defensive teams but without the fundamental trust that your teammates have your back there is no way you can lock down teams from scoring when your own offense hits a wall.