Luke Long Term Equals Not Good For Lakers

DEEP3CL · Post #1 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:49 am

You knew it was coming so I might as well be the one to bring it. The 3 spot is still a weak spot for the Lakers as far as finding a consistant starter, cause truth be told Luke ain't the answer period. All he is right now is a band-aid covering a sore.

Trevor would be ideal for the 3 he certainly offers better defense and a much better finisher at the basket than Luke is. But he told Phil he's more comfortable coming off the bench. As we all know Luke was next to be extinct while we had Vlad playing well and Trevor coming in off the bench supplying D and O.

OK so the next part of the story is Phil suddenly yanking Vlad in favor of Luke because he was looking like a lost starving dog with no home. Right now Luke is like an anchor strapped to the squads ankle. The same old song is, "Luke is such a good passer, such a good fit for the triangle, high IQ.............what the hell else is he offering ?

He misses open J's, blows easy lay ups, get's block by guards on lay up's, passes to escape from being in trouble..........I can go on and on. Bottom line is I'm not really liking our chances in the playoffs knowing he'll be grabbing major minutes on the floor. Luke is a liability weather some here like it or not.

I know some will come in and defend him, but what's to defend ? Luke is my next pick to be traded next season yeah I'm putting it out there right now...............I want him off this team the sooner the better. We can be good with him but not feared, with him gone we can be great and when you're great you're feared.

All of you guys would be lying if you said we're great now with Luke. How can any team fear us when they see Luke Walton in our starting 5 ?

Dr Aki · Post #2 » by **Dr Aki** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:03 am

luke is one of the few guys preventing the lakers playing kobe-ball at times which was why he was inserted into the starting lineup in the first place

im a lets "play luke advocate" in which i want the lakers getting their shots from good, clean, crisp passing instead of kobe iso's 30ft out, especially when gasol is being ball denied inside

that wasnt the case the last 3 road losses, and it didnt help that lamar and luke were bricking jumpshots left, right and center, im not sure ariza fits that bill either, as he has been struggling with his jumpshot as well, theres just not enough floor being spread with those 3 guys out there

as much as i want to trade luke (cap reasons) as well, im quite sure you won't find a suitor that will trade the lakers a decent player for luke. that won't happen until luke is well into his contract year, theres just not a lot of systems luke fits into, but the triangle is one he does

so if you want luke out of the starting lineup, you're going to have to try your luck with ammo, who by the seems of it is far from ready to play any significant minutes for the lakers

my advice, we can bitch about luke all we want, but at the end of the day you just gotta learn to suck it up

DEEP3CL · Post #3 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:16 am

Akiho wrote:as much as i want to trade luke (cap reasons) as well, im quite sure you won't find a suitor that will trade the lakers a decent player for luke. that won't happen until luke is well into his contract year, theres just not a lot of systems luke fits into, but the triangle is one he does

I could care less what they get for him, we don't even need another player in return.........just ship his ass out !

Akiho wrote:so if you want luke out of the starting lineup, you're going to have to try your luck with ammo, who by the seems of it is far from ready to play any significant minutes for the lakers

I know ammo is far from ready, he had a major knee injury that takes a full year to recover from.

Akiho wrote:my advice, we can bitch about luke all we want, but at the end of the day you just gotta learn to suck it up

We've been sucking it with Luke for 6 years but these last 2 have been pure hell. Bottom line is we have to get a steady man at the 3........period.

larry14r · Post #4 » by **larry14r** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:34 am

DEEP3CL wrote:
Akiho wrote:as much as i want to trade luke (cap reasons) as well, im quite sure you won't find a suitor that will trade the lakers a decent player for luke. that won't happen until luke is well into his contract year, theres just not a lot of systems luke fits into, but the triangle is one he does
I could care less what they get for him, we don't even need another player in return.........just ship his ass out !

Akiho wrote:so if you want luke out of the starting lineup, you're going to have to try your luck with ammo, who by the seems of it is far from ready to play any significant minutes for the lakers
I know ammo is far from ready, he had a major knee injury that takes a full year to recover from.

Akiho wrote:my advice, we can bitch about luke all we want, but at the end of the day you just gotta learn to suck it up
We've been sucking it with Luke for 6 years but these last 2 have been pure hell. Bottom line is we have to get a steady man at the 3........period.

Well if you a steady man at the 3 then go draft one because that's the only way we can get one because as long Luke's contract is on our team we can't use the MLE for anything.

Post #5 » by **crazyeights** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:04 am

I think what hurts us the most (in reference to Luke) is his inability to rebound even when he has position. He's such a poor athlete that he can't hack it out there. It's sort of sad to watch, because he tries to box out, but when it comes to getting a real rebound, one that's not uncontested or bouncing right to him, Luke struggles to stay afloat with quicker, more athletic guys.

We can't have our SF lacking in rebounding when we have Odom in foul trouble, Pau getting punked and Kobe bricking shots. We create zero second looks.

And I really don't feel like the Luke makes Kobe pass thing holds water. From what I see, Luke is wide open on the perimeter and D-Fish/Lamar/Pau all hesitate to give him the ball. When Kobe sees Luke with the ball, he knows he's going to be fed the ball. IMO, Luke's inability to create his own shot and not just perform a simple entry pass, hurts a Andrew Bynum-less LA Lakers team.

Kobe has to generate more offense with Luke on the floor. We're playing 4 on 5 out there and that's if you consider Lamar/D-Fish as living bodies. These two go in and out of slumps all the time.

Our biggest offseason need is someone who has the balls to start (not Ariza) and can create their own shot. We need a slasher who can defend......(who may or may not be on the Rockets).

Post #6 » by **milesfides** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:05 am

Small forward is a concern, not as much as point guard considering the importance of that position, but I don't see a clear cut answer at the 3.

Luke can't shoot. But he does help facilitate the offense. But when teams play off him and overplay Kobe, his inability to shoot consistently is a major flaw.

But Ariza isn't a good shooter either. Better than Walton, but he's streaky at best. But what hurts is that Ariza can't handle the ball or pass or create plays for his teammates. That's a huge difference between him and Walton.

One reason that Ariza prefers playing with the 2nd unit is that he knows where he's shots will come from. They'll come off the break when they push the ball - and he likes to shoot when the defense is scrambling. But in the halfcourt, with the starters running the triangle, there's a lot of pressure on Ariza to make the right play, cut, pass, shoot, all in the context of the offense. He doesn't really have that skill set. Which is why he defers too much to Kobe when they play together - and that puts him in a bad position as well, as a spot-up, halfcourt shooter.

Earlier this year, I would have said move Kobe to the 3 and Sasha to the 2. I still think that's an option. But Sasha has been foul-prone, and I think this has to do with his overeagerness to be a defensive stopper...but I'm going to speculate he's gotten a step slower due to the extra weight he carries. I think he would have been better off as a wiry strong guy, like Reggie Miller, than trying to bulk up. And losing that half-step, in the NBA, is a big difference (as seen with Jason Kidd's defense).

But either Walton or Ariza will still be a major upgrade over Radamn, because these guys still play hard, compete, and are team players.

And still, I think the bigger problem than SF is point guard. 82games.com has our SF at 13th in the league, just a bit above average. Our PG? 25th in the league, which is near the bottom. How can we expect to win a championship when our PG position is such a major weakness?

With Kobe and Shaq, we could get away with a lot, but on this team, everybody needs to pull their weight.

In short, Deep3cl, I see your SF issue and I raise you a PG problem.

DEEP3CL · Post #7 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:33 pm

crazyeights wrote:I think what hurts us the most (in reference to Luke) is his inability to rebound even when he has position. He's such a poor athlete that he can't hack it out there. It's sort of sad to watch, because he tries to box out, but when it comes to getting a real rebound, one that's not uncontested or bouncing right to him, Luke struggles to stay afloat with quicker, more athletic guys.

We can't have our SF lacking in rebounding when we have Odom in foul trouble, Pau getting punked and Kobe bricking shots. We create zero second looks.

And I really don't feel like the Luke makes Kobe pass thing holds water. From what I see, Luke is wide open on the perimeter and D-Fish/Lamar/Pau all hesitate to give him the ball. When Kobe sees Luke with the ball, he knows he's going to be fed the ball. IMO, Luke's inability to create his own shot and not just perform a simple entry pass, hurts a Andrew Bynum-less LA Lakers team.

Kobe has to generate more offense with Luke on the floor. We're playing 4 on 5 out there and that's if you consider Lamar/D-Fish as living bodies. These two go in and out of slumps all the time.

Our biggest offseason need is someone who has the balls to start (not Ariza) and can create their own shot. We need a slasher who can defend......(who may or may not be on the Rockets).

Excellent post crazyeights.

TylersLakers · Post #8 » by **TylersLakers** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:57 pm

We could have had this problem fixed if we matched New Orleans for Posey, but we didn't want to. We're hurting for not doing it.

As Miles said.. the point is the problem, but you have to roll with Fish down the stretch - no matter who your starting PG is. He's too much of a shot maker in close games to keep on the bench. He has some brain cramps once in a while (vs San Antonio), but we need him.

It's going to be hard to add to this team in the upcoming years as well with our pay roll and everything. It's going to have to be done by equal-for-equal trade and that's like throwing s**t at the wall and hoping it sticks.

All in all, I just think players need to get back to their roles. Sometimes, we're trying to do too much. Fish has to realize he's a spot up shooter and he takes charges. Lamar, has to be aggressive with his rebounding, and aggressive offensively. Luke has to initiate the offense when it runs through him and he has to make the defense respect him with his outside shot. Ariza, off the bench, needs to quit worrying about three pointers and get back to making the hustle plays which made him so effective the first half of the season.

And most importantly, Andrew needs to get back to allow everyone to fall into place.

Post #9 » by **Kilroy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:12 pm

Luke's the only guy on our team that seems to be able to get the ball to people when they are actually in a position to make an easy shot. Luke actually passes the ball in to the paint...

The only other guys on our team that are able to do that are Gasol and Odom...

Our PG rotation should be able to do that, but Fish has never been a good distributer and Farmar is only good on the break...

So I'm with Miles, the 1 is by far our biggest problem.

Luke's deficiencies won't be as noticable when we have a healthy front court. Any combo of Bynum/Gasol, Bynum/Odom, or Gasol/Odom, won't leave too many rebounds for Luke, and he'll be able to cheat a bit on D.

But our PG problem will always be there... Especially if we lose Luke's passing...

DEEP3CL · Post #10 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:28 pm

Kilroy wrote:Luke's the only guy on our team that seems to be able to get the ball to people when they are actually in a position to make an easy shot. Luke actually passes the ball in to the paint...

The only other guys on our team that are able to do that are Gasol and Odom... 2s...

Our PG rotation should be able to do that, but Fish has never been a good distributer and Farmar is only good on the break...

So I'm with Miles, the 5 is by far our biggest problem.Luke's deficiencies won't be as noticable when we have a healthy front court. Any combo of Bynum/Gasol, Bynum/Odom, or Gasol/Odom, won't leave too many rebounds for Luke, and he'll be able to cheat a bit on D.

But our PG problem will always be there... Especially if we lose Luke's passing...

No Kilroy miles said that the 1 is our major concern....................we have Drew and Pau at the 5 spot. And you bring up good points but Luke just doesn't help the team in any other area in the games. The pasing thing is getting old here cause that's all people wanna hang their hat on with him.

butter17 · Post #11 » by **butter17** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:32 pm

DEEP3 I agree with you 100%, luke gives us one thing, he can pass a little bit, other then that he's a liabilaty on offense & defense. I think adam morrison can be that 3 right now. Phil needs 2 give him playing time . One thing I forgot 2 say about luke is that he's injury prone.

Post #12 » by **Kilroy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:37 pm

DEEP3CL wrote:
Kilroy wrote:Luke's the only guy on our team that seems to be able to get the ball to people when they are actually in a position to make an easy shot. Luke actually passes the ball in to the paint...

The only other guys on our team that are able to do that are Gasol and Odom... 2s...

Our PG rotation should be able to do that, but Fish has never been a good distributer and Farmar is only good on the break...

So I'm with Miles, the 5 is by far our biggest problem.Luke's deficiencies won't be as noticable when we have a healthy front court. Any combo of Bynum/Gasol, Bynum/Odom, or Gasol/Odom, won't leave too many rebounds for Luke, and he'll be able to cheat a bit on D.

But our PG problem will always be there... Especially if we lose Luke's passing...
No Kilroy miles said that the 1 is our major concern....................we have Drew and Pau at the 5 spot. And you bring up good points but Luke just doesn't help the team in any other area in the games. The pasing thing is getting old here cause that's all people wanna hang their hat on with him.

Yeah, you're right... Sorry about that, I was thinking about something else when I typed that...

I think the reason people want to hang their hats on the passing is that Luke is the only one that does it efficiently... Without him, we have a real problem getting the ball to the other 2 passers...

I agree the Luke isn't the most athletic and I've wanted him gone lots of times... But when he starts gemes, or offense just seems to get flowing so much better.

If we could get a Point that could do that with some speed and Man D... I'd have no problem moving Luke to the Bench or out completely.

Post #13 » by **Kilroy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:40 pm

butter17 wrote:DEEP3 I agree with you 100%, luke gives us one thing, he can pass a little bit, other then that he's a liabilaty on offense & defense. I think adam morrison can be that 3 right now. Phil needs 2 give him playing time . One thing I forgot 2 say about luke is that he's injury prone.

Adam Morrison, really?

What little I've seen of him hasn't been impressive... He looks to me like a 1 to 2 year project at best...

We'll see if he makes any strides this off-season, if he's around that long.

Honestly though, we have enough youth on this team, I think Ammo needs to be moved...

Anklebreaker702 · Post #14 » by **Anklebreaker702** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:52 pm

Akiho wrote:luke is one of the few guys preventing the lakers playing kobe-ball at times which was why he was inserted into the starting lineup in the first place

im a lets "play luke advocate" in which i want the lakers getting their shots from good, clean, crisp passing instead of kobe iso's 30ft out, especially when gasol is being ball denied inside

If this was the case more often times than not then I could agree with your post but most of the time that's not the case. The triangle offense denotes passing, usually inside out depending who is playing Center. Luke passing is usually perimeter & doesn't lead to baskets most often times. Butter17 stated the most important aspect which is that he is injury prone.

He has to bring more to the table than just a "good pass" every now & then. He's a liability on both ends of the court. I don't think he will get much PT next year because I truly believe we will land Ron Artest. Earlier in the season I used to call him & Chris Mihm the shop around boys because they used to come in in garbage time only & I knew trades were imminent! I was right about Mihm & Luke will be next especially if we land Artest. There's not going to be anytime left @ that spot with Trevor & L.O. needing time.

Sure L.O. can give relief @ the 4 but he's a natural 3 & that's where he has his biggest advantage.

TylersLakers · Post #15 » by **TylersLakers** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:53 pm

Yeah, when Drew comes back, I don't know why we don't just give a shot at LO playing small forward. I get the spacing and all.. but can't we just give it a shot for a couple games to see how it goes?

Anklebreaker702 · Post #16 » by **Anklebreaker702** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:02 pm

TylersLakers wrote:We could have had this problem fixed if we matched New Orleans for Posey, but we didn't want to. We're hurting for not doing it.

As Miles said.. the point is the problem, but you have to roll with Fish down the stretch - no matter who your starting PG is. He's too much of a shot maker in close games to keep on the bench. He has some brain cramps once in a while (vs San Antonio), but we need him.

It's going to be hard to add to this team in the upcoming years as well with our pay roll and everything. It's going to have to be done by equal-for-equal trade and that's like throwing s**t at the wall and hoping it sticks.

All in all, I just think players need to get back to their roles. Sometimes, we're trying to do too much. Fish has to realize he's a spot up shooter and he takes charges. Lamar, has to be aggressive with his rebounding, and aggressive offensively. Luke has to initiate the offense when it runs through him and he has to make the defense respect him with his outside shot. Ariza, off the bench, needs to quit worrying about three pointers and get back to making the hustle plays which made him so effective the first half of the season.

And most importantly, Andrew needs to get back to allow everyone to fall into place.

Good post TL. Yeah we should have made a move for Posey & you're right, when big Drew gets back everyone should fall back in place

Speedlot · Post #17 » by **Speedlot** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:07 pm

People are ragging on Luke, when we are currently the best team in the NBA. Get a clue? Buy a clue?

compton finest · Post #18 » by **compton finest** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:51 pm

why people keep saying luke is an improvement over vlad?????
HE'S NOT.....We made it all the way to the NBA finals....with-out DREW-ARIZA with VLAD starting.
If we did'nt give away that game we was up by 20 points we could've been CHAMPS.
An are record this year with Vlad starting is 27-3...... we lead the league in asst an scoring an average victory's when we was killing teams by like 20 are more points.
Please come up with something else besides he's a good passer to prove his value, because as you can see with him buried on the bench we were dominant.

DEEP3CL · Post #19 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:57 pm

Speedlot wrote:People are ragging on Luke, when we are currently the best team in the NBA. Get a clue? Buy a clue?

You need a clue...........Luke is not the byproduct of why the Lakers are tops in the league. That has nothing to do with what guys are pointing out here. He's a LIABILITY period. We're looking long term here and Luke doesn't fit where this team is trying to get to which is being great. I don't want us to just be good..........good only last for so long just ask the Suns or Mavs. Two teams struggling just to make the playoffs now.

DEEP3CL · Post #20 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:59 pm

compton finest wrote:why people keep saying luke is an improvement over vlad?????
HE'S NOT.....We made it all the way to the NBA finals....with-out DREW-ARIZA with VLAD starting.
If we did'nt give away that game we was up by 20 points we could've been CHAMPS.
An are record this year with Vlad starting is 27-3...... we lead the league in asst an scoring an average victory's when we was killing teams by like 20 are more points.
Please come up with something else besides he's a good passer to prove his value, because as you can see with him buried on the bench we were dominant.

Welcome to the fam, and thank you for pointing out the obvious that some just don't seem to get.