Farmar vs Collins

ALL HAIL · Post #1 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:09 am

Don't get me wrong. I strongly believe this Laker team will win the championship this year.

I also think Jordan Farmar can be a tremendous player if properly utilized. I've gone on record, though, professing the flaws of Jordan Farmar as a triangle point.

Phil Jackson's history has shown and proved that he plays guys at the 1 who guard PGs on defense but play "shooting" guard on offense (ie Craig Hodges, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher).

However, Phil Jackson will also employ the exact opposite as well. Jackson will play "big" guys at the 1 who play solid defense on both PGs and SGs (with the ability to contain SFs on defensive rotations) while being able to play multiple positions on the offensive end (ie Scottie Pippen, Randy Brown, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, Kobe Bryant).

Jordan Farmar can NEVER consistently fulfill the the aforementioned roles for Phil Jackson.

Farmar's offensive versatility is too vast for him to concentrate solely on being a shooter in the mold of Paxson, Armstrong, and Kerr. He doesn't want to be a strictly Derek Fisher-like, knock down three point shooter. He knows he can do things on the floor that merit the freedom to be an offensive playmaker.

I think we have needed a player to fulfill that big, defensive, versatile guard role next to Kobe since Ron Harper left and since Antonio Daniels spurned us for Washington.

Farmar has absolutely NO capacity to fulfill this defensive role.

Point guard Mardy Collins of the Clippers can.

Post #2 » by **crazyeights** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:05 am

I'm still laughing about that Antonio Daniels decision.

Mardy Collins, interesting, I've watched quite a few Clippers games this season...not sure if you're proposing trading Farmar for Mardy or what, but I can see him as being a PJ type point guard. My only concern is how much longer do we run the triangle? In a season or two Phil could be retired.

I don't want to completely let go of our young talent just to fulfill a need that, although is our Achilles heel, might not be necessary to win a championship. I don't want us to be on the wrong end of a Kidd/Harris type of deal. Not even saying Farmar is that caliber, but seeing and knowing what Famar is capable of, it's obvious he's restrained. I wonder if he would even want to resign here in LA if given the choice.

As to Mardy Collins though...I know there were some projections saying we might be interested in him, but I'm not entirely sold. He can be a pretty sloppy ball-handler and I'm not sold on his ability to guard the same quick guards that give Farmar trouble.

I'd probably rather, if it's about one over the other, choose to keep Farmar. If nothing but for the future. IDK, maybe it's just me.

TylersLakers · Post #3 » by **TylersLakers** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:14 am

I think a guy we saw tonight.. Keyon Dooling would be a great pickup through trade this off-season.

Hopefully Farmar can get it done until then. He needs to really focus in on the defensive end.

Maybe in the off-season a Jordan Farmar, Adam Morrison, Charlotte's 2nd round pick could go to New Jersey for Sean Williams and Keyon Dooling. Williams was having some troubles with management and I think he was the trading block this season. Add in the fact they get to get rid of the contract of Dooling for an expiring in Morrison. Maybe, just maybe. Would definitely improve our defense with that trade.

ALL HAIL · Post #4 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:18 am

crazyeights wrote:I wonder if Farmar would even want to resign here in LA if given the choice.

Nope. I really don't think so.

All the more reason to get a player in here who can flourish in a system that has proved to be dominant with the right players.

I think you're right, Mardy Collins will not lock down Tony Parker or Mo Williams but I think he will do a MUCH better job then what Farmar has shown. To me, Mardy Collins is an IMPROVEMENT defensively and provides added overall toughness, two things we need to sustain dominance.

LAL4Life · Post #5 » by **LAL4Life** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:44 am

I don't know why Farmar has regressed so much this year, but if this is any indication of how he's going to be playing for us in the future, he needs to be shipped out ASAP. His shooting has been horrendous, he's been making terrible decisions with the ball, and he's a matador defender, which is inexcusable for someone as athletic as he is. He's the primary reason our bench has been playing so poorly lately; he comes in and our big leads evaporate. Hopefully that changes, because he's shown so much promise over the past two years.

Post #6 » by **crazyeights** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:11 am

ALL HAIL wrote:
crazyeights wrote:I wonder if Farmar would even want to resign here in LA if given the choice.

Nope. I really don't think so.

All the more reason to get a player in here who can flourish in a system that has proved to be dominant with the right players.

I think you're right, Mardy Collins will not lock down Tony Parker or Mo Williams but I think he will do a MUCH better job then what Farmar has shown. To me, Mardy Collins is an IMPROVEMENT defensively and provides added overall toughness, two things we need to sustain dominance.

So you would actually trade Farmar for Mardy? I just feel like you could steal Mardy...Farmar seems like he'd have some value. Or maybe I'm just too biased.

Let me ask you this, what is Mardy Collins' ceiling? I know it's nice to bring in guys like Ron Harper and say hey he wasn't really a PG. But Ron Harper was a stuttering stud. Great player. Could have been amazing but he blew out his knee.

ALL HAIL · Post #7 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:38 am

^Well for one, I don't look at Mardy Collins as Ron Harper. I look at Mardy Collins more as Randy Brown--a backup PG who can maintain the same level of defensive intensity as the starting group.

I look at Jason Kidd as filling that Ron Harper role with Mardy Collins playing the role of the ambitious, young understudy with a "similiar" skill set to Kidd.

Mardy Collins, as opposed to Farmar, would resign here for pennies as long as he had a role in the rotation. Farmar, on the other hand, will leave us for anybody that will give him minutes.

ALL HAIL · Post #8 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 am

crazyeights wrote:Let me ask you this, what is Mardy Collins' ceiling?

I completely understand you're line of thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you're afraid that Farmar has more upside than Mardy Collins. Your fears are valid .. well kind of.

Farmar can be really good in the right system, while Mardy Collins is a role player somewhere in between Randy Brown and Eric Snow.

Something that must be noted is the true admiration I feel for the GM of the Memphis Grizzlies. He is a man after my own heart. Mr. Wallace and myself both believe that you make moves to better your team without much consideration to how the player you're trading will succeed or not succeed on their new team.

With that in mind, I think Mardy Collins is quite simply a better fit. It doesn't really matter to me if Farmar becomes the starting PG for the Clippers for the next eight years. I think Mardy Collins is a better chemistry and system fit next to Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Kidd, Ariza, Odom, and Fisher. He will be of more benefit to us than Farmar.

Post #9 » by **crazyeights** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:14 am

I guess the Farmar potential thing is I am not exactly sure how much longer we'll be running the triangle offense, so it's just a concern for me. Unless after PJ retires we hire internally, Rambis or Shaw, then we'll continue to run it.

I'm just concerned about throwing away Farmar and his valuable dirt-cheap contract for Mardy Collins. Maybe I'm being greedy, but if we're going to trade Farmar, I want it to be in a "significant" trade, whereas I think we can probably get Mardy Collins for less.

I completely agree that if we're concerned about chemistry in the short term, that Mardy probably fits better. I like his game, he's a solid player. Though watching the Clippers, with their injuries, I think he's asked to do too much at times, exposing a lot of his weaknesses (his ball-handling, shooting, etc) though theoretically they'd be masked in the triangle.

Interesting stuff. I just hope these kinds of signings are being discussed by the FO.

Post #10 » by **snaquille oatmeal** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:15 pm

kind of overlooking the fact that PJ pg prototype is also a veteran are we? and Collings is not.

ALL HAIL · Post #11 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:46 pm

Collins is not a veteran but he sure plays (and looks) like one. Honestly though, knowing PJ, you don't think Phil Jackson would absolutley LOVE Mardy Collins over Jordan Farmar?

Honestly.

larry14r · Post #12 » by **larry14r** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:23 pm

ALL HAIL wrote:Collins is not a veteran but he sure plays (and looks) like one. Honestly though, knowing PJ, you don't think Phil Jackson would absolutley LOVE Mardy Collins over Jordan Farmar?

Honestly.

The Clippers are asking the same question right now, and telling us to keep our trash on our side of the fence.

what would jack bauer do? · Post #13 » by **what would jack bauer do?** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:56 pm

I agree with you man. Mardy is a tough defender and he just has that mentality that he's capable of stopping his opponent. A lot of guys in the league don't have the right mind set and give up on playing tough on defense. Mardy is a good defender against sg's and so so against pg's and small forwards. But the defense Farmar plays against pgs is often worse than so so. Mardy's jumper is very questionable too, but it looks like he's improved a lot since he came into the league with that terrible hitch. Oh and Mardy can create his own offense and create shots for other players; and you're right he plays like a vet.

As far as trading Farmar for Collins that's not a great idea, Farmar is more reliable at the pg position through 82 games cause he doesn't have to exert himself as much to sprint with smaller guards like Collins would. Collins would be good in the playoffs though. Plus Collins has already had one knee surgery and he's a relatively young guy. I would look into trading other guys like Ammo, Yue, or sign and trade shannon brown. Brown's role could be to play back up small forward, shooting guard, and point throughout the season. What we should do is get him now so we can develop him to play back up point once Fish starts to really decline.

ALL HAIL · Post #14 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:08 pm

I feel you dude but Mardy Collins wouldn't really wear down (unless he's already damaged) because he'd probably be playing less minutes than Farmar is playing now (19 mins).

The Lakers need Mardy Collins to play a defensive backup role at both guard spots, while Jason Kidd plays that similiar role in the starting lineup.

I don't want people to think that I feel Mardy Collins is ready to fill our starting PG spot ... he isn't.

He is, however, ready to assume the role, and thrive as defensive big guard off the bench.

Note: We probably need to use Morrison's expiring contract to unload Walton for Eddy Curry.

Asianiac_24 · Post #15 » by **Asianiac_24** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:55 pm

[quote="ALL HAIL"]

Note: We probably need to use Morrison's expiring contract to unload Walton for Eddy Curry.[/quote]

Why would we do that? Walton is not a very good player, but he is still a good insurance off the bench, and Phil likes him. Plus Curry is a cancer, hell no

DEEP3CL · Post #16 » by **DEEP3CL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:01 pm

Mardy Collins is GARBAGE..........................plain and simple.

ALL HAIL · Post #17 » by **ALL HAIL** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:17 pm

I guess I lost you Asianiac. I don't want to get off topic, but I was responding to an idea to use Adam Morrison's contract to help improve our SF position.

It sounds logical.

But I don't think that's possible. EIther way, keeping Walton and Morrison past Jul 1st will cost the Lakers an additional 12 million more (over three years) than it would cost to acquire Eddy Curry ... FACT.

Morrison should be traded with Walton to insure optimal savings.

Farmar should be traded, straight up, for his replacement ... Mardy Collins.

larry14r · Post #18 » by **larry14r** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:42 am

ALL HAIL wrote:I guess I lost you Asianiac. I don't want to get off topic, but I was responding to an idea to use Adam Morrison's contract to help improve our SF position.

It sounds logical.

But I don't think that's possible. EIther way, keeping Walton and Morrison past Jul 1st will cost the Lakers an additional 12 million more (over three years) than it would cost to acquire Eddy Curry ... FACT.

Morrison should be traded with Walton to insure optimal savings.

Farmar should be traded, straight up, for his replacement ... Mardy Collins.

Expect the Clippers won't trade with us because we are in the same divison

Dr Aki · Post #19 » by **Dr Aki** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:22 am

i dont agree with trading for mardy

the best option would be to try to sign him through FA, though im not sure how much hed cost us

seeing as we don't know how much longer fish can play at this level. farmar is already the insurance, i would be hesitant to play with our depth this way

Dexmor · Post #20 » by **Dexmor** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:22 pm

I was on that Mardy Collins theory since he was drafted. A 6'6 pg? Even if your not Phil thats cool.