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Blazers acquires an entire bench from the Suns

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Post#46 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:01 pm by I_Socrates

The59Sound wrote:Always enjoy these threads, as you know exactly how they'll go in advance:

1) Fan of Team A offers bad trade for talented young player with potential.
2) Fan of Team B says, "That's really not very good value..."
3) Fan of Team A runs down the player he wanted his team to acquire.

Anyway, this is a terrible trade for Portland. Even if they're in "win now" mode, which they're not, this trade wouldn't move the needle that much. The "our entire bench" mantra doesn't mean much when the players are average/low potential or old.


I believe it was a Portland fan who made this thread, but I'm not sure. With that said, it's not bad value so keep on preaching brother, no one's listening. Only Blazers fans are claiming this is terrible value wise, everyone else see's that it's not. If those bench players are trash, then why would they be a good addition to the Blazers bench? You clearly have better bench players, right? Keep them, and enjoy Leonard.
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Post#47 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:05 pm by hcsilla

sisibilio wrote:
hcsilla wrote:
Village Idiot wrote:I'd be willing to give up Leonard to Phoenix but only if Gortat is coming back.


Almost a complete bench and a future 1st rounder isn't enough for Leonard?

A crappy bench and a mid to late first? nope.


Yeah, a late 1st rounder. Minnesota is going to win the West very soon.
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Post#48 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:12 pm by sisibilio

No, but they'll make the playoffs in 2014 unless they suffer another historical barrage of injuries.
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
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Post#49 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:25 pm by hcsilla

sisibilio wrote:No, but they'll make the playoffs in 2014 unless they suffer another historical barrage of injuries.


Sure they will. No doubt about that. You know better than everyone else. You have already made a deal with Adam Silver. And BTW if they make the play-off it definitely means that their pick is a late 1st rounder.

Any other great contributions to the thread?
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Post#50 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:29 pm by sisibilio

Yea, you suck at logic, and sarcasm.
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
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Post#51 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:39 pm by I_Socrates

sisibilio wrote:Yea, you suck at logic, and sarcasm.


You're not much better yourself, either. Leonard is not worth more than a mid first, and if he was, the quality role players make up the value. Blazers fans are being homers, as expected, but don't worry, no one is calling them offering any picks for Leonard anyways, so it's no problem.
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Post#52 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:36 pm by DeBlazerRiddem

I_Socrates wrote:
sisibilio wrote:Yea, you suck at logic, and sarcasm.


You're not much better yourself, either. Leonard is not worth more than a mid first, and if he was, the quality role players make up the value. Blazers fans are being homers, as expected, but don't worry, no one is calling them offering any picks for Leonard anyways, so it's no problem.


First of all, by omission are you admitting you cannot back up your claim that:

I_Socrates wrote:there are at least 30 other young, athletic bigs I would rather have than Meyers and they wouldn't cost our whole bench and a first.


??? Because I would really like to see a list of 30, young athletic bigs who you think are better and would come cheaper. It should be good entertainment for all.

Secondly, and this is HUGE, but you don't understand the pick being offered. It is the least favorable of MIN or MEM pick - so even if the MIN pick is decent, the MEM pick is sure to be in the mid 20's. No longer can you really claim it is a mid pick because for it to be a mid pick, Memphis would have to be in the lottery.

Third, even if Leonard's value is no more than a mid first, what is the incentive for Portland to trade Leonard for, in the best case scenario, a mid first? Do you not understand the situation Portland is in?

If we improve the bench and make the playoffs, we lose our pick this year, and probably have a 15-20 pick in 2014. If we don't improve our bench, we could have another 10-12 pick, especially if we move Hickson at the deadline and throw those minutes to Leonard for development. So what we are really trading:

- A 10-12 pick in 2013 and Leonard for a 15-20 pick in 2014 and the least favorable of MIN/MEM protected picks. Or in other words, a better pick for a lesser pick, and a player with 1 year development for a mid rookie. That is also a best case scenario. We could be trading a better pick for a lesser pick, and Leonard for a pick in the 20's or even a pick pushed out to 2016!

That is why the tangible asset is more valuable to us than a half-year upgrade to the bench, an upgrade that is REALLY being overstated in this thread. You are offering the bench from a bottom dweller, that is really nothing to be proud about guys.

In sum, this thread has gotten ridiculous. Portland's GM has VERY CLEARLY stated he will not do a trade like this. It doesn't have to devolve into a debate about value, because the direction does not make sense for Portland and the value is just not outstanding. I am not going to even try and explain why middling value taking us in the wrong direction is a bad idea.
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Post#53 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:40 pm by Golabki

I_Socrates wrote:Blazers fans are being homers, as expected, but don't worry, no one is calling them offering any picks for Leonard anyways, so it's no problem.
As someone who is not a fan of either team I think the Portland fans position is basically correct (the Lenord > a heavily protected Minny pick, and Phoenix bench is worth ~0).

As I said, I understand someone not liking Leonard. That's a totally defensible position. I don't understand someone thinking Shannon Brown is worth anything more than a mid-late second rounder.
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Post#54 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:40 pm by hcsilla

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Secondly, and this is HUGE, but you don't understand the pick being offered. It is the least favorable of MIN or MEM pick -


No, it is not correct.

Babby described the issue involving the pick “legally complicated and legally challenging.” Here’s the result:

Minnesota’s own first-rounder will be top-13 protected in 2013 and 2014 and top-12 protected in 2015 and 2016.
Memphis owes Minnesota a lottery-protected first-rounder sometime in the next four years.
If the Memphis and Minnesota picks convey in the same season, the Suns get the worse of the two choices.
If the Memphis pick conveys but the Minnesota pick doesn’t, then the pick will roll over to the next season and thus only future Minnesota picks will be in play.
If the pick doesn’t convey in four years, then the Suns will receive two second-rounders going forwad


http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/07/28/c ... opez-deal/
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Post#55 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:21 pm by Jase

Village Idiot wrote:I'd be willing to give up Leonard to Phoenix but only if Gortat is coming back.


:lol:

Good. Freakin. Luck,
"A winner listens. A loser just waits until it's their turn to talk."
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Post#56 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:26 pm by I_Socrates

Golabki wrote:
I_Socrates wrote:Blazers fans are being homers, as expected, but don't worry, no one is calling them offering any picks for Leonard anyways, so it's no problem.
As someone who is not a fan of either team I think the Portland fans position is basically correct (the Lenord > a heavily protected Minny pick, and Phoenix bench is worth ~0).

As I said, I understand someone not liking Leonard. That's a totally defensible position. I don't understand someone thinking Shannon Brown is worth anything more than a mid-late second rounder.


Then that would be your opinion, because no where have I said that Shannon Brown or any one on our bench is extremely valuable and would end up in us getting a good deal. What I did say was that Leonard is NOT worth much more than a mid first round pick, which is EXACTLY what that pick will be.

If you look at how I come to that conclusion, you'd understand it:
-Since the Minny pick is protected top 13 in 2013 and 2014, the chance that it is conveyed THIS year is almost none, as they are most certainly missing the playoffs and the chance that they finish 14th is very low.
-Since Memphis is certainly making the playoffs, Minnesota would get their pick this year. That DOES NOT mean that it is conveyed to the Suns, the Suns will ONLY receive the lesser pick if both the Minnesota and Memphis picks were to be conveyed in the SAME year.
-Therefore, Memphis' 2013 OWN first rounder will be conveyed TO Minnesota this year, and not to the Suns.
- That leaves simply a top 13 protected Minny 2014 first that goes down to top 12 protection for 2015, 2016 and thereafter is 2 seconds.

Minnesota certainly looks like a team that will make the playoffs as the 6th-8th seed either next season, or the one after. Even if they miss as the last team to be out of the chase, that's still the 14th pick that would be conveyed in 2014 by Minny.

SO, with that being said, Leonard is NOT worth a mid first round pick AND 3 quality rotational players, especially not for the Suns, who as I've said numerous times before have their best player already playing the position Leonard plays. This is such a non-starter for the Suns, I don't even know why people are acting like it's the Blazers that are getting ripped off.

In fact, they're not. They're getting a guaranteed mid-first, along with 3 players that will help them NOW, something they clearly have admitted they need. Yes, it means they admit that their pick was flawed, but it's better late than never to admit fault and move on. I'm not saying Leonard is a bust, nor am I saying Portland should trade him, but to act like that should be the reasoning for them declining this trade is ludicrous. Value wise, this deal is NOT bad for the Blazers AT ALL, unless of course you're delusional and believe that Leonard will be a franchise center in the future, in which case, I'd like to sell you the Eiffell Tower.

PS. When I'm saying you, it's not towards the person I quoted, it's for anyone who has those opinions/thoughts/feelings.
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Post#57 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:28 pm by DeBlazerRiddem

hcsilla wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Secondly, and this is HUGE, but you don't understand the pick being offered. It is the least favorable of MIN or MEM pick -


No, it is not correct.

Babby described the issue involving the pick “legally complicated and legally challenging.” Here’s the result:

Minnesota’s own first-rounder will be top-13 protected in 2013 and 2014 and top-12 protected in 2015 and 2016.
Memphis owes Minnesota a lottery-protected first-rounder sometime in the next four years.
If the Memphis and Minnesota picks convey in the same season, the Suns get the worse of the two choices.
If the Memphis pick conveys but the Minnesota pick doesn’t, then the pick will roll over to the next season and thus only future Minnesota picks will be in play.
If the pick doesn’t convey in four years, then the Suns will receive two second-rounders going forwad


http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/07/28/c ... opez-deal/


That is basically what I said, and I don't see how that is not worrisome. Assuming Memphis doesn't go into the lottery again, here are the potential outcomes:

- Minnesota is below 13, pick is not conveyed in 2013. Phoenix maybe gets a mid 2014 pick from Minnesota.
-Minnesota is 13 or above, Phoenix gets the Memphis pick (late pick).

Neither is a mid-first in the 2013 draft. The ONLY way Portland is likely to get a mid pick is if Memphis falls into the lottery.

-Memphis in lottery, Minnesota is in playoffs, Phoenix gets the Minnesota pick.

So again, there is no guarantee this is a mid-pick. In fact, the most likely scenario seems to be Minnesota at the tail end of the lottery or in 8th seed, in which case Phoenix get's Memphis's late pick. The next most likely scenario is getting Minnesota's top 12 protected pick in 2014, which isn't terrible, but still no reason to trade Leonard.

I don't even know why I am feeding the trolls, who gives a damn about the value, this trade does not make sense for Portland any way you slice it. We aren't going to give up on a raw lottery big man after half a year, no matter how many times you tell us he is worthless. I fully believe Leonard will get to a point in his career where Phoenix's stance in this thread looks ridiculous, especially the point about 30 young athletic centers - I doubt you could find 10 athletic young centers better than him available for that Min/Mem pick. I might be wrong, but I like the athletic 7 footer who hits 85% of his free throws - he might be used in a package to upgrade to a proven player, it isn't like he is untouchable - but Portland knew he would be a long-term project when we took him on and we are still willing to invest time into him if no good trades come up. It isn't an insult to your team to say this is not a good trade for us, because as has been outlined NUMEROUS times, this does not make sense for our direction.
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Post#58 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:00 pm by I_Socrates

^ You clearly don't understand how it works.
Is Minnesota going to make the playoffs this year? I don't think you will find many people saying yes.
If that is the case, and Memphis is CERTAINLY, without a doubt, 100% making the playoffs, then Memphis pick is going to Minnesota and that ends there.
After that, the Minny pick is simply top 13 protected in 2014, top 12 in 15/16, then 2 2nds if not conveyed by that point.

So, the only way it's NOT a mid-first is if Minny makes the playoffs in all 4 of those years, INCLUDING this year.

That means that unless you believe the Wolves are good enough to make the playoffs this year as things are right now, you would be wrong in believing that it's not a mid first. However, you'd still be naive to think that Minny is making the playoffs given their current circumstances, so it's lose-lose for you I guess.

Only way I see that pick being a late first is if Minny makes a blockbuster move to bolster their playoff hopes for this season or become a juggernaut in the West; otherwise it's essentially guaranteed to be 13-20, which in my humble opinion, is the middle of the first round.

As far as 30 other bigs (even though I was clearly exaggerating), I can come up with a lot that I think are similar or better but would come at the same cost (a mid-first round pick + "filler" - which I consider to be useful filler) or cheaper (simply TPE, cap space, 2nds). Will post when I have time.

EDIT: I think most of these guys could be had for a mid first as long as the filler is expiring and/or useful, which in this case it will be (Suns could use Johnson's expiring to match salaries, only Brown would be on the books after the season).

Al Jefferson
Paul Millsap
Carlos Boozer
Anderson Varejao
Tiago Splitter
Jason Thompson
Pau Gasol
Andray Blatche
Amir Johnson
Epke Udoh
Ian Mahinmi
Festus Ezeli
Timofey Mozgov
Kosta Koufus

So, there is absolutely no chance in hell the Suns offer this package for Meyers Leonard, period.
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Post#59 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:13 pm by sisibilio

If there are so many why wasting such a valuable pick (slight LOL) to get Leonard?
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
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Post#60 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:18 pm by sisibilio

I_Socrates wrote:Al Jefferson
Paul Millsap
Carlos Boozer
Anderson Varejao
Tiago Splitter
Jason Thompson
Pau Gasol
Andray Blatche
Amir Johnson
Epke Udoh
Ian Mahinmi
Festus Ezeli
Timofey Mozgov
Kosta Koufus

So, there is absolutely no chance in hell the Suns offer this package for Meyers Leonard, period.

That's like, the most diverse list ever. Most of those guys don't make any sense in a rebuilding team.
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Post#61 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:25 pm by I_Socrates

sisibilio wrote:That's like, the most diverse list ever. Most of those guys don't make any sense in a rebuilding team.


I didn't know there was a situation I was supposed to keep in mind when coming up with better ways to use that pick in a trade? :lol:

I mean, either they're acquirable with that pick, or they're not. If they are (which almost all of them should be, by the way) then I've proven my point.

I didn't say there would be a better fit for a team in terms of a trade, all I said was that if we were targeting a big man with that pick, we could do far better than Leonard; I also stated that we're NOT looking for a big man, like AT ALL. We have Gortat/JO holding down center, and finding a backup if JO leaves isn't hard. Then we've got Frye who may or may not be back next season, and Scola, who's more than servicable at the 4. So, we're not trading those picks and players at positions of need for us (Brown has been our LEADING SCORER!!) for something that would simply be an unneeded commodity, it doesn't make sense, and it's not the right value for us.

Think about it this way: Portland has that pick, Gortat and JO at center and holes all along the perimeter. Would you want them to trade that pick for yet ANOTHER C while also sending out any quality you have on the perimeter? I think not.
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Post#62 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:27 pm by I_Socrates

sisibilio wrote:If there are so many why wasting such a valuable pick (slight LOL) to get Leonard?


That's the point, we WOULDN'T. That's what I'm trying to get through your thick skulls!
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Post#63 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:33 pm by sisibilio

I_Socrates wrote:
sisibilio wrote:That's like, the most diverse list ever. Most of those guys don't make any sense in a rebuilding team.


I didn't know there was a situation I was supposed to keep in mind when coming up with better ways to use that pick in a trade? :lol:

Well, that's the whole point of the discussion. :lol:
Value is all relative. The only guys of those list all things considered (age, contract, fit...) i'd consider trading Leonard for are Splitter and Varejao, and maybe Amir Johnson.
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
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Post#64 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:03 pm by cucad8

Trying to figure out when
Al Jefferson
Paul Millsap
Carlos Boozer
Anderson Varejao
Tiago Splitter
Pau Gasol
Timofey Mozgov

became young, athletic bigs.
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Post#65 Re: Blazers acquires an entire bench from the
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:07 pm by I_Socrates

sisibilio wrote:
I_Socrates wrote:
sisibilio wrote:That's like, the most diverse list ever. Most of those guys don't make any sense in a rebuilding team.


I didn't know there was a situation I was supposed to keep in mind when coming up with better ways to use that pick in a trade? :lol:

Well, that's the whole point of the discussion. :lol:
Value is all relative. The only guys of those list all things considered (age, contract, fit...) i'd consider trading Leonard for are Splitter and Varejao, and maybe Amir Johnson.


No? That wasn't the point of the discussion. You're trying to change it to favor you, I never said that was what I was debating. All I said was that there are better options at the big spot that we could target with that pick, and even better options that we can get without giving up that pick at all.

You still don't get it. I don't care how valuable you feel Leonard is or who you'd trade him for, the rest of the league doesn't either. The fact of the matter is that a mid first can net a bunch of superior players than Leonard, and therefore any team trading such a pick for Leonard would be nothing but foolish.

It's quite simple, really. When you can spend $5 to buy ripe banana's, there is no point spending that same $5 to buy raw bananas, especially if you also having to pay for them to ripen (in terms of adding extra assets). Now you're going to go back to claiming that the filler is useless, in which case, the whole premise is flawed because Portland wouldn't be interested in acquiring them for their bench if they were useless.

So, the conclusion, yet again, is that the Suns would never do this deal. Not only is it bad value, but it also allows Portland to either use that pick to get one of the many other, far better and more skilled bigs I mentioned or add another young talent in the future, both being losses for the Suns who share the same conference. Just because you wouldn't trade Leonard for any of those guys doesn't mean he's worth more than them.
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