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Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo

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Post#16 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:20 am by chatard5

As a Pacers fan I think Rondo is more valuable overall than Hibbert, but I do not like the trade for us. Hibbert hasn't been great offensively, and I was expecting about a board per game more from him. But he has been playing EXCELLENT defense.

And I kind of understand why some Pacers would want Hill at the 2. I personally don't like it, though. And if Hill does move to the 2 we would have to trade Granger. I don't think his stock is too high right now. But if he can come back and play good defense he could be huge for us. We can somehow get a little better defensively and then add Lance Stephenson to the bench and have him come off the bench and score 10 points per game. And this is now Paul George's team. If Hill can penetrate and we move the ball well we have Granger and Paul George who are both going to make open 3s.

But I don't want Ian Mihinmi starting and then Plumlee backing him up. Right now obviously our strength is defense and size. Why give up Hibbert and lose both of those?

And I saw someone say we obviously want to get rid of Hibbert. I disagree with this. He has been one of the best defensive centers in the league this year. I think he is overpaid, but he is needed if we want to go anywhere in the playoffs. I think his offense will improve, he just needs to make 1.5 shots more per game which I think is very possible when Granger comes back.

Bottom line is what team gives the Pacers the best chance to beat the Heat? That is one with size that can rebound. They said today on ESPN that Granger said he thinks he will be back a little bit before the all-star game. So then he would start at the 2 and Hill would come off the bench? And if we go small our lineup would be great: Rondo, Hill, Granger/George at the 3/4, and West. But our forte is defense, and I think our current lineup with Granger added in and Lance coming off the bench gives us a much better shot at beating the Heat.

So if we really want to move George Hill to the 2, which I don't know why many Pacer fans do, we'd have to trade Granger. I don't see Boston wanting him. We can add in a first rounder that Boston would get and make it a 3-teamer, but I don't know what that would even be. Plus I don't think Granger's stock is too high right now-no way is Granger and a late 1st worth Rondo. Another side note for Pacer fans: Don't be surprised if in the playoffs Paul George brings the ball up late in games like Lebron often does. That way Hill can be at the 2. Granger can possibly bring the ball up as well. But Paul George is already a stud and just getting better.

So while I do think Hibbert is overpaid and bugs the crap out of me often, he is just too important defensively. There aren't many good big mean in the league and Hibbert has improved a lot defensively since the Heat series. I also think the Pacers coaches learned a lot from that series. The Heat wanted to come to Indy and beat us-they remembered the series and there was a little bit of talk. But our size was too much and we got so many offensive rebounds. Either way I don't think we will beat the Heat (this year; but if George continues to improve he should be starting in the all-star game. And if Granger is healthy he should get open shots and can play very good defense. So once that team gels we have a shot at the Heat. Like I said I don't think it'll be this year, but possible, and a good shot next year if we are healthy), but to have a chance we need Hibbert. Hopefully his offense will come around.
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Post#17 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:49 am by winter_mute_13

^Good post chatard5. I agree with most of it.

old rem wrote:
jowglenn wrote:I'm a Pacers fan.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes yes yes yes.

Jesus of course yes.


I'm surprised. I would not touch it. You can't GET a 7-2 versatile C who has a good attitude,is young,is healty. A PG? Every year there are a couple.


Rondo is a difference maker on offense, and not a bad defender himself. He's having a down year (by his standards), but I think he's still clearly more valuable than Hibbert, even with scarcity of big men taken into account. I don't want the Pacers to trade Hibbert, but if they were, I'd want to get back someone like Rondo.

I'd be very wary of making this trade for the reasons chatard5 states, and in addition going from a good guy in Hibbert to Rondo (who's euphemistically described as "moody") can't be too good for the locker room. For a chemistry team like the Pacers, a Rondo type is a big risk.

So while I'd think deeply about this deal, I ultimately will probably say no to it.
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Post#18 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:54 am by Pacersike

Rondo for Hibbert?
Easy yes for me. You can even add Granger and Gortat if you want. No Hill.

The Pacers are a great defensive team and Hibbert is a big part of that, but he is also a big reason why good outsideshooting and pick and roll teams have our number. How many gamewinning outside/midrange shots are there compared with gamewining dunks and layups? No, late in games in the playoffs, driving the lane becomes very difficult for every team facing a good team and quickness becomes much more of a factor than early on.

I'll take the big upgrade in creating offense and small downgrade in defense.
Mahinmi isn't that much worse defensively and the upgrade from Stephenson to Rondo is definitely significant.
It also helps that Rondo is cheaper and not mentally soft.
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Post#19 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:23 am by yoadknux

I like this idea.

Maybe a 3-way trade with the Wiz that sends Okafor to Indy for someone, maybe George Hill also?
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Post#20 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:42 am by Pacersike

winter_mute_13 wrote:I'd be very wary of making this trade for the reasons chatard5 states, and in addition going from a good guy in Hibbert to Rondo (who's euphemistically described as "moody") can't be too good for the locker room. For a chemistry team like the Pacers, a Rondo type is a big risk.

Big risk for what? Not every difficult character guy goes knocking down fans in the stands or wants to shoot in public.

If it doesn't effect his performances on the court in a bad way and he doesn't do anything criminal (that most other players don't do), I can take it.

I still remember Pritchard's first words about Gerald Green. He said he is a good character guy and I was thinking so what? A good character should be a bonus, not a good reason to sign someone.
Mental toughness is important and Rondo has lots of that. Mental toughness is a big reason why Celtics are so good in the postseason.

Time to put the demons of the past behind us and not assume that every player with a moody character is going to screw this franchise again. I'm not going to deny Rondo has a difficult character, but where is the harm he is causing the Celtics, except for maybe some headaches?
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Post#21 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:00 am by sunshinekids99

No go on a straight up deal. But if Pacers would take on Bass and Green I would listen.
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Post#22 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:40 am by winter_mute_13

Pacersike wrote:
winter_mute_13 wrote:I'd be very wary of making this trade for the reasons chatard5 states, and in addition going from a good guy in Hibbert to Rondo (who's euphemistically described as "moody") can't be too good for the locker room. For a chemistry team like the Pacers, a Rondo type is a big risk.

Big risk for what? Not every difficult character guy goes knocking down fans in the stands or wants to shoot in public.

If it doesn't effect his performances on the court in a bad way and he doesn't do anything criminal (that most other players don't do), I can take it.

I still remember Pritchard's first words about Gerald Green. He said he is a good character guy and I was thinking so what? A good character should be a bonus, not a good reason to sign someone.
Mental toughness is important and Rondo has lots of that. Mental toughness is a big reason why Celtics are so good in the postseason.

Time to put the demons of the past behind us and not assume that every player with a moody character is going to screw this franchise again. I'm not going to deny Rondo has a difficult character, but where is the harm he is causing the Celtics, except for maybe some headaches?


There's truth to what you say.

I guess what it comes down to as my biggest objection is the timing rather than the idea of this trade, i.e. this isn't a trade that's easy to do midseason, but maybe we can revisit this idea in the offseason. Integrating a personality like Rondo won't be easy, and I truly believe that for the past 2 seasons our good locker room vibe has been integral to what success we've had.

This goes along with the roster adjustments that the earlier poster pointed to. We'd end up being perimeter heavy with this trade - ideally we'd have to make another move, trading Granger or Hill for a frontcourt guy. Again, if we're considering this kind of major change, seems best to do it in the offseason.

Unless you're suggesting we give up on this season as lost? I think we have a shot to make some noise in the playoffs this year, though obviously we're far from favorites, and I'm loathe to risk it by trading major components of the current team. As Daryl Morey said, teams with even just a 5% chance of winning it all should go for it - we can't take it for granted that we'll have this opportunity again, especially for a borderline contender like the Pacers. I mean, what if next year we lost Shaw, or if David West signs elsewhere, and we lost whatever secret ingredient it is that makes our chemistry work?

sunshinekids99 wrote:No go on a straight up deal. But if Pacers would take on Bass and Green I would listen.


A straight up deal (this year) wouldn't work anyway. Celtics are limited by de facto hard cap (luxury tax +apron) since they used the full MLE. It would have to be something like Hibbert + Augustin for Rondo + Bass (or Green).
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Post#23 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:12 pm by Pacersike

winter_mute_13 wrote:I guess what it comes down to as my biggest objection is the timing rather than the idea of this trade, i.e. this isn't a trade that's easy to do midseason, but maybe we can revisit this idea in the offseason. Integrating a personality like Rondo won't be easy, and I truly believe that for the past 2 seasons our good locker room vibe has been integral to what success we've had.

This goes along with the roster adjustments that the earlier poster pointed to. We'd end up being perimeter heavy with this trade - ideally we'd have to make another move, trading Granger or Hill for a frontcourt guy. Again, if we're considering this kind of major change, seems best to do it in the offseason.

Unless you're suggesting we give up on this season as lost? I think we have a shot to make some noise in the playoffs this year, though obviously we're far from favorites, and I'm loathe to risk it by trading major components of the current team. As Daryl Morey said, teams with even just a 5% chance of winning it all should go for it - we can't take it for granted that we'll have this opportunity again, especially for a borderline contender like the Pacers. I mean, what if next year we lost Shaw, or if David West signs elsewhere, and we lost whatever secret ingredient it is that makes our chemistry work?

Yeah, I think this roster deserves a chance to show that they can be a top 2 team in the East.
It's just that my concerns about Hibbert are mostly for the playoffs, crunch time and performing under pressure.
Until this season, there has always been a surprise factor. We were clearly the underdogs against the Bulls and Heat and the Magic just didn't have a good team anymore with Howard injured.

This season is all about confirming and that's usually the hardest part, especially for mentally soft players. See Green or Hibbert and yes even with George I have my doubts(scoringwise). But maybe, that's just me, full of doubts sometimes :)
Anyway, when you give them a chance, there is also the possibility that they fail and that you won't get a player like Rondo for Hibbert anymore, if he could be had in the first place.
I don't have a big problem playing without a good center. Miami does it, Spurs are always saying they are looking for a center next to Duncan, Celtics technically don't really have one, Warriors are doing allright, Thunder only have a limited one. Clippers leave Jordan on the bench to end games, Hawks don't play too bad. If you have four (former) Allstars at the other 4 positions, you can compensate it IMO

Chemistry could be an issue, but I see it as an investment for the future. If you add him in the offseason, his first months next season will not be his best and his first playoffs with the team might also cause some chemistry issues.
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Post#24 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:19 pm by jowglenn

I'm sorry, it comes down to the fact that Rajon Rondo, when the playoffs come around, is an MVP candidate. Did any of you people WATCH the Celtics-Heat series? In some of those games, Rondo was better than LeBron.
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Post#25 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:47 pm by Scoot McGroot

j_angel wrote:
hcsilla wrote:I see Sullinger a future nice benchplayer ala Tyler Hansbrough. Even if I underestimate him, the Suns do not need him with Scola, Morris, Beasley and maybe Frye at PF.

But the main problem is Granger and his salary. He and it do not make sense for a rebuilding teams.


Sullinger has a way higher ceiling than Hansborough.

Sullinger is 20, just entering the league and putting up 6.1/6 in 20 mins (around 11/10.8 per 36).
Hansborough is 27, seven years old and his best season was 11/5.2 (think he was around 25/26 in that season) in 22 mins. He has not matched those stats since then.

Hansborough is a solid bench player good for 15-20mins a night currently, having been in the league 4 years and being 27. Sullinger is already that at the age of 20.


Sullinger's knees/legs are the next Brandon Roy. It was very clear in the Ohio State staff and media that Sullinger apparently has one leg that's almost 2 inches longer than the other leg, which will lead to leg, knee, and/or back issues throughout his career in all likelihood.
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Post#26 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:52 pm by j_angel

Wheres the link to this? first iv heard of it.
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Post#27 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:54 pm by Nuntius

j_angel wrote:Versatile?
- He isnt a good offensive player.


He is. He has a back to basket game unlike most Centers nowadays. He is shooting terribly this year due to a wrist injury.

j_angel wrote:- He isnt a good rebounder for his size either. He averages 8.2 rebounds per 28mins. Thats 10.5 per 36. Thats less than 6'9 Jared Sullinger.


He is a good rebounder. In fact, he is a great offensive rebounder. He just doesn't a lot of defensive rebounds since he contests so many shots. You cannot get a defensive rebound when you are contesting a shot. It's that simple.

j_angel wrote:- Yes he is a terrific defender, but he isnt versatile. Kevin Garnett is versatile.

You are overselling Hibbert & Undervaluing Rondo.
There two careers are not even comparable to this date.


Hibbert is also a very good passer for a big man.

Is Rondo the better player? For sure.

But Hibbert is the foundation of Indiana's defense. I wouldn't touch him. And he's not overpaid. He's just underperforming.

Plus, I wouldn't take Rondo as a Pacers fan. He is a true point guard. True point guards do not fit with Indiana's system. We need a PG who is a good defender and a good shooter. We have that in George Hill. So, there's no reason to sacrifice our starting C for a player that doesn't fit our system.
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Post#28 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:04 pm by Nuntius

Pacersike wrote:but he is also a big reason why good outsideshooting and pick and roll teams have our number.


You can certainly blame him for the scoring that PnP bigs put on him. It is a fact that he struggles against bigs that can hit the 15 jumper and stretch the floor a bit.

But he's not to blame about what players like Redick and Korver can do to us. That's on Paul George, Lance and George Hill.


Pacersike wrote:and not mentally soft.


A player that picks up fight with his teammates and bitches about them is not mentally soft?

If that's the case then I wish that all of our players are mentally soft. Artest wasn't mentally soft either :wink:
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Post#29 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:08 pm by Nuntius

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Post#30 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:12 pm by Nuntius

Pacersike wrote:but where is the harm he is causing the Celtics, except for maybe some headaches?


He cost them Ray Allen. And there's a reason that some Celtics fans are entertaining this idea. There is no smoke without fire.
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Post#31 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:22 pm by j_angel

Nuntius wrote:
Pacersike wrote:but where is the harm he is causing the Celtics, except for maybe some headaches?


He cost them Ray Allen. And there's a reason that some Celtics fans are entertaining this idea. There is no smoke without fire.


Thanks for the links, I knew the back was the issue but didnt know about one leg being shorter. I thought his back was red flagged for bulging disks.

Also. Rondo did not cost us Ray Allen.
Ray Allen's ego cost us Ray Allen
Bradley > Allen and KG > Allen and also Rondo > Allen. Ray didnt like that.
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Post#32 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:14 pm by Nuntius

j_angel wrote:Thanks for the links, I knew the back was the issue but didnt know about one leg being shorter. I thought his back was red flagged for bulging disks.

Also. Rondo did not cost us Ray Allen.
Ray Allen's ego cost us Ray Allen
Bradley > Allen and KG > Allen and also Rondo > Allen. Ray didnt like that.


I have to agree that Avery Bradley is more impactful than Ray Allen at the moment. Still, I think that Rondo's ego is a bit too high for the Pacers.

To make myself clear. I'm not saying that Rondo is a criminal or anything. Paul George recently said in an interview that this is a team with no egos. And I love that. Rondo would bring his ego along with him and I wouldn't like that.

Plus, as I said before I don't think that Rondo is a good fit for our offense. That's not to say that Rondo isn't the superior player. He is. He is just not a good fit for us.
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Post#33 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:48 am by Pacersike

Nuntius wrote:Plus, I wouldn't take Rondo as a Pacers fan. He is a true point guard. True point guards do not fit with Indiana's system. We need a PG who is a good defender and a good shooter. We have that in George Hill. So, there's no reason to sacrifice our starting C for a player that doesn't fit our system.

I'd say Indiana's system depends a lot on having Hibbert or not and that he is a big reason for the offense Vogel is trying to run (and also the flaws). Like you said, Roy is a very good passer (when he has time) and a PG like Hill is good enough because we have Hibbert to run our offense through and we need shooters to space the floor for him. When Hibbert is gone, you can change the system and push the tempo, set more picks, move without the ball more. It's a reason to postpone a trade till after the season, but I hope you realise that defense isn't the only thing he plays a major part in. We have to play the pace Hibbert can keep up with.

Nuntius wrote:But he's not to blame about what players like Redick and Korver can do to us. That's on Paul George, Lance and George Hill.

He is though. You play defense as a team. You can't say he is a great overall defender if he doesn't have any effect on what's going on around the perimeter or when he has to provide help defense on players running into screens. It's no coïncidence those players you mentioned use their speed to get their shot off. The times one of our players has to fight through a screen without close help from Hibbert are countless. One quick step would be enough to give one of our players a chance to catch up with the runner. Players like Noah and Garnett can do it.

We totally disagree about egos. Most great players all have big egos. If everyone is buddies in the lockerroom, I don't know if that really is a good thing. It could be. You think Ray Allen doesn't have an ego?
As long as they can play together on the court, I can take it. The Celtics could last year, despite some of them not being buddies.
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Post#34 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:25 am by Nuntius

Pacersike wrote:I'd say Indiana's system depends a lot on having Hibbert or not and that he is a big reason for the offense Vogel is trying to run (and also the flaws). Like you said, Roy is a very good passer (when he has time) and a PG like Hill is good enough because we have Hibbert to run our offense through and we need shooters to space the floor for him. When Hibbert is gone, you can change the system and push the tempo, set more picks, move without the ball more. It's a reason to postpone a trade till after the season, but I hope you realise that defense isn't the only thing he plays a major part in. We have to play the pace Hibbert can keep up with.


West and Granger need a similar pace as well. We're a power post team. Teams that are run primarily through the post do not need true point guards. They need Fisher-like guards.

Pacersike wrote:He is though. You play defense as a team. You can't say he is a great overall defender if he doesn't have any effect on what's going on around the perimeter or when he has to provide help defense on players running into screens. It's no coïncidence those players you mentioned use their speed to get their shot off. The times one of our players has to fight through a screen without close help from Hibbert are countless. One quick step would be enough to give one of our players a chance to catch up with the runner. Players like Noah and Garnett can do it.


He does provide help defense on players running into screens. He tries to keep up with the guard. He is just not quick enough in order back to his man if the guard decides to pass.

But he is not to blame for Redick and Korver torching us from the arc. He's not the one that is supposed to chase them around screens.

Pacersike wrote:We totally disagree about egos. Most great players all have big egos. If everyone is buddies in the lockerroom, I don't know if that really is a good thing. It could be. You think Ray Allen doesn't have an ego?
As long as they can play together on the court, I can take it. The Celtics could last year, despite some of them not being buddies.


Ray Allen surely does have ego. But in their first run Allen, Pierce and Garnett had great chemistry. And that's what put them on top.

Also, not all great players have big egos. Duncan does not have an ego. And he seems to be quite friendly with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

That's how I want my players to be. They should aspire to act like Duncan. Not like Kobe.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Post#35 Re: Pacers Celtics Hibbert Rondo
Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:03 am by Pacersike

Nuntius wrote:West and Granger need a similar pace as well. We're a power post team. Teams that are run primarily through the post do not need true point guards. They need Fisher-like guards.

I disagree. West can also score with a true point guard to pick and pop with. See CP3
I think Granger would be even more deadly with a better passing PG. We don't need to have the fastest pace.

Nuntius wrote:
He does provide help defense on players running into screens. He tries to keep up with the guard. He is just not quick enough in order back to his man if the guard decides to pass.

But he is not to blame for Redick and Korver torching us from the arc. He's not the one that is supposed to chase them around screens..

I disagree. For a part he is to blame. Redick runs around a screen from Davis. Hibbert is involved. Not as much, but he is. If Hibbert has to defend a stronger big in the paint, isn't it also our wings fault if they don't help out?
Imagine if they would be as slow as Hibbert.




Nuntius wrote:Ray Allen surely does have ego. But in their first run Allen, Pierce and Garnett had great chemistry. And that's what put them on top.

Also, not all great players have big egos. Duncan does not have an ego. And he seems to be quite friendly with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

That's how I want my players to be. They should aspire to act like Duncan. Not like Kobe.

Just my opinion, of course.

Agree to a certain degree. Do I want them to be modest and very friendly? Yes, but they don't have to be that.
I could very much live with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Rondo on my team. Their actions don't repel me.
Artest throwing elbows, Griffin flopping and diving, players like Cousins, Josh Smith and Love complaining about others in stead of looking at themselves first, those are the things that repel me.

To each his own. Although you did make me realize that a big ego has more room to bounce around in a bigger city. I do like players like Rondo, but maybe they are not well suited for small market teams. Maybe that's why Love, Cousins and Josh Smith are complaining so much :)
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