RealGM

Nuntius wrote:

Pacersike wrote:but where is the harm he is causing the Celtics, except for maybe some headaches?

He cost them Ray Allen. And there's a reason that some Celtics fans are entertaining this idea. There is no smoke without fire.

Thanks for the links, I knew the back was the issue but didnt know about one leg being shorter. I thought his back was red flagged for bulging disks.

Also. Rondo did not cost us Ray Allen.
Ray Allen's ego cost us Ray Allen
Bradley > Allen and KG > Allen and also Rondo > Allen. Ray didnt like that.

j_angel wrote:Thanks for the links, I knew the back was the issue but didnt know about one leg being shorter. I thought his back was red flagged for bulging disks.

Also. Rondo did not cost us Ray Allen.
Ray Allen's ego cost us Ray Allen
Bradley > Allen and KG > Allen and also Rondo > Allen. Ray didnt like that.

I have to agree that Avery Bradley is more impactful than Ray Allen at the moment. Still, I think that Rondo's ego is a bit too high for the Pacers.

To make myself clear. I'm not saying that Rondo is a criminal or anything. Paul George recently said in an interview that this is a team with no egos. And I love that. Rondo would bring his ego along with him and I wouldn't like that.

Plus, as I said before I don't think that Rondo is a good fit for our offense. That's not to say that Rondo isn't the superior player. He is. He is just not a good fit for us.

Nuntius wrote:Plus, I wouldn't take Rondo as a Pacers fan. He is a true point guard. True point guards do not fit with Indiana's system. We need a PG who is a good defender and a good shooter. We have that in George Hill. So, there's no reason to sacrifice our starting C for a player that doesn't fit our system.

I'd say Indiana's system depends a lot on having Hibbert or not and that he is a big reason for the offense Vogel is trying to run (and also the flaws). Like you said, Roy is a very good passer (when he has time) and a PG like Hill is good enough because we have Hibbert to run our offense through and we need shooters to space the floor for him. When Hibbert is gone, you can change the system and push the tempo, set more picks, move without the ball more. It's a reason to postpone a trade till after the season, but I hope you realise that defense isn't the only thing he plays a major part in. We have to play the pace Hibbert can keep up with.

Nuntius wrote:But he's not to blame about what players like Redick and Korver can do to us. That's on Paul George, Lance and George Hill.

He is though. You play defense as a team. You can't say he is a great overall defender if he doesn't have any effect on what's going on around the perimeter or when he has to provide help defense on players running into screens. It's no coïncidence those players you mentioned use their speed to get their shot off. The times one of our players has to fight through a screen without close help from Hibbert are countless. One quick step would be enough to give one of our players a chance to catch up with the runner. Players like Noah and Garnett can do it.

We totally disagree about egos. Most great players all have big egos. If everyone is buddies in the lockerroom, I don't know if that really is a good thing. It could be. You think Ray Allen doesn't have an ego?
As long as they can play together on the court, I can take it. The Celtics could last year, despite some of them not being buddies.

Pacersike wrote:I'd say Indiana's system depends a lot on having Hibbert or not and that he is a big reason for the offense Vogel is trying to run (and also the flaws). Like you said, Roy is a very good passer (when he has time) and a PG like Hill is good enough because we have Hibbert to run our offense through and we need shooters to space the floor for him. When Hibbert is gone, you can change the system and push the tempo, set more picks, move without the ball more. It's a reason to postpone a trade till after the season, but I hope you realise that defense isn't the only thing he plays a major part in. We have to play the pace Hibbert can keep up with.

West and Granger need a similar pace as well. We're a power post team. Teams that are run primarily through the post do not need true point guards. They need Fisher-like guards.

Pacersike wrote:He is though. You play defense as a team. You can't say he is a great overall defender if he doesn't have any effect on what's going on around the perimeter or when he has to provide help defense on players running into screens. It's no coïncidence those players you mentioned use their speed to get their shot off. The times one of our players has to fight through a screen without close help from Hibbert are countless. One quick step would be enough to give one of our players a chance to catch up with the runner. Players like Noah and Garnett can do it.

He does provide help defense on players running into screens. He tries to keep up with the guard. He is just not quick enough in order back to his man if the guard decides to pass.

But he is not to blame for Redick and Korver torching us from the arc. He's not the one that is supposed to chase them around screens.

Pacersike wrote:We totally disagree about egos. Most great players all have big egos. If everyone is buddies in the lockerroom, I don't know if that really is a good thing. It could be. You think Ray Allen doesn't have an ego?
As long as they can play together on the court, I can take it. The Celtics could last year, despite some of them not being buddies.

Ray Allen surely does have ego. But in their first run Allen, Pierce and Garnett had great chemistry. And that's what put them on top.

Also, not all great players have big egos. Duncan does not have an ego. And he seems to be quite friendly with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

That's how I want my players to be. They should aspire to act like Duncan. Not like Kobe.

Just my opinion, of course.

Nuntius wrote:West and Granger need a similar pace as well. We're a power post team. Teams that are run primarily through the post do not need true point guards. They need Fisher-like guards.

I disagree. West can also score with a true point guard to pick and pop with. See CP3
I think Granger would be even more deadly with a better passing PG. We don't need to have the fastest pace.

Nuntius wrote:
He does provide help defense on players running into screens. He tries to keep up with the guard. He is just not quick enough in order back to his man if the guard decides to pass.

But he is not to blame for Redick and Korver torching us from the arc. He's not the one that is supposed to chase them around screens..

I disagree. For a part he is to blame. Redick runs around a screen from Davis. Hibbert is involved. Not as much, but he is. If Hibbert has to defend a stronger big in the paint, isn't it also our wings fault if they don't help out?
Imagine if they would be as slow as Hibbert.

Nuntius wrote:Ray Allen surely does have ego. But in their first run Allen, Pierce and Garnett had great chemistry. And that's what put them on top.

Also, not all great players have big egos. Duncan does not have an ego. And he seems to be quite friendly with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

That's how I want my players to be. They should aspire to act like Duncan. Not like Kobe.

Just my opinion, of course.

Agree to a certain degree. Do I want them to be modest and very friendly? Yes, but they don't have to be that.
I could very much live with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Rondo on my team. Their actions don't repel me.
Artest throwing elbows, Griffin flopping and diving, players like Cousins, Josh Smith and Love complaining about others in stead of looking at themselves first, those are the things that repel me.

To each his own. Although you did make me realize that a big ego has more room to bounce around in a bigger city. I do like players like Rondo, but maybe they are not well suited for small market teams. Maybe that's why Love, Cousins and Josh Smith are complaining so much

Pacersike wrote:I disagree. West can also score with a true point guard to pick and pop with. See CP3
I think Granger would be even more deadly with a better passing PG. We don't need to have the fastest pace.

Pick and Pop is a set play. You don't need to be an elite PG to run it. Hill and West are running this play very effectively.

What differentiates a true PG with a combo guard like Hill is the ability to create off the dribble and drive - dish. Granger could benefit from a drive and dish like any other deadly shooter. But Granger can get a good amount of high quality shots out of post-ups and shots off of screens.

We mostly need a slow pace as a team. This slow offensive pace is what sets up our defense. George and Lance could thrive in a higher-paced offense but Granger, West and Hibbert are much better in a set offense.

Pacersike wrote:I disagree. For a part he is to blame. Redick runs around a screen from Davis. Hibbert is involved. Not as much, but he is. If Hibbert has to defend a stronger big in the paint, isn't it also our wings fault if they don't help out?
Imagine if they would be as slow as Hibbert.

How is he to blame for Paul George or Lance failing to keep up with Redick and Korver? Those types of shooters run off of countless staggered screens. Is it the whole team to blame? Or should Roy just push Davis in order to not let him set the screen?

Bigs have nothing to do with the amount of 3 point shots that 3 point specialists receive after running off of a number of screens unless they are the ones responsible for guarding him (in Ryan Anderson's case, for example).

Pacersike wrote:Agree to a certain degree. Do I want them to be modest and very friendly? Yes, but they don't have to be that.
I could very much live with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Rondo on my team. Their actions don't repel me.
Artest throwing elbows, Griffin flopping and diving, players like Cousins, Josh Smith and Love complaining about others in stead of looking at themselves first, those are the things that repel me.

To each his own. Although you did make me realize that a big ego has more room to bounce around in a bigger city. I do like players like Rondo, but maybe they are not well suited for small market teams. Maybe that's why Love, Cousins and Josh Smith are complaining so much

I don't have anything against Rondo per se. If he was a great fit, I could live with his character. Also, I have nothing against Garnett. He is kinda dirty on the court but he isn't a locker room cancer. But I wouldn't want anything to do with the Kobes of the world. This attitude repels me more than anything.

As I said earlir, I'd much rather have players that act like Duncan than anything else

Nuntius wrote:Pick and Pop is a set play. You don't need to be an elite PG to run it. Hill and West are running this play very effectively.

What differentiates a true PG with a combo guard like Hill is the ability to create off the dribble and drive - dish. Granger could benefit from a drive and dish like any other deadly shooter. But Granger can get a good amount of high quality shots out of post-ups and shots off of screens.

We mostly need a slow pace as a team. This slow offensive pace is what sets up our defense. George and Lance could thrive in a higher-paced offense but Granger, West and Hibbert are much better in a set offense.

How is he to blame for Paul George or Lance failing to keep up with Redick and Korver? Those types of shooters run off of countless staggered screens. Is it the whole team to blame? Or should Roy just push Davis in order to not let him set the screen?

Bigs have nothing to do with the amount of 3 point shots that 3 point specialists receive after running off of a number of screens unless they are the ones responsible for guarding him (in Ryan Anderson's case, for example).

Let's just agree to disagree then

Yes, I believe all 5 players are to blame for what happens on the court. Some more than others and coach is responsible too.

Yes, I believe West and Granger can also contribute in a big way with a true PG and a center who moves quickly. A big who can pick and roll would be a great, as we don't have one of those now, if you don't count Plumlee.
You can still slow down and run faster halfcourt sets.

regardless of whether any of the handful of point guards who are better than Hill would make us better, I have no interest is giving up what it would require to get one of them. we're not rebuilding. we're in the hunt just barely out of first with our best scorer of the last several years sitting on the end of the bench in a suit.

I remember a year when we were getting into the NBA playoffs for the first time and we traded for an aging George McGinnis thinking he'd put us over the top. it destroyed our chemistry and in my opinion cost Slick his job as GM. you have to be very careful about trading away parts of a team that is succeeding. incidentally, the GM of the other team who sent George back to us .... Donnie Walsh who was then in Denver.

Pacersike wrote:Let's just agree to disagree then

Deal