Al Horford to Cleveland (Draft Day)

jvalanciunas · Post #21 » by **jvalanciunas** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:21 pm

parson wrote:The Atlanta Hawks are the 5th-best 3pt shooting team in the NBA, at 38%. We also take the 5th-most attempts from 3. Nobody takes and makes better than we do. We are wonderfully set up for Howard's inside-out game. Some people think Ferry did that on purpose, ya know.

Its 4th best 3pt shooting team. The Hawks just pasted the Spurs today, after going 14-28 from three against the Bucks, bring the average to .385% 3P%

Niko23 · Post #22 » by **Niko23** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Is there that much a difference between Milsap/Gasol/Jefferson and Horford where a top 5 pick would be needed?

parson · Post #23 » by **parson** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:59 pm

Niko23 wrote:Is there that much a difference between Milsap/Gasol/Jefferson and Horford where a top 5 pick would be needed?

First, it would depend on the "top 5 pick." This year, for example, stinks. ATL would be dumb if they traded Horford for the 1st overall pick of 2013.
Second, Horford is miles ahead of Milsap in talent, miles ahead of Gasol in value (and ahead of him in talent) and very reasonably ahead of Jefferson in value (while being equal in talent). Re-read my description of him on this thread.

Hawks would be crazy to trade him, unless we're talking about a franchise-changing player, and the teams who have that kind of player would be crazy to trade HIM.

rjgraca · Post #24 » by **rjgraca** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:36 pm

I can understand Atlanta fans being going a little over board in their valuation of Horford, but he is NOT a franchise changing player. I believe the Cavs offered the 4th pick in the Irving draft and the Hawks thought the same thing that they could do better which hasn't happened yet. Horford is a good borderline All-Star talent who the Cavs don't need that much anymore--- thus not having the same value to Cavs as a couple of seasons ago before the new collective bargaining agreement that made salary cap management much more important.

A lot of NBA drafts get down graded because their are not many, if any, superstar potential talents from the College game that stand out. The Cav's Irving was drafted in such a draft class a couple of years ago. The Cavs also drafted Thompson (Horford type potential) with Irving in that draft. The Cavs have been patient with their rebuild and PF is not a position of great need for them.

I can understand Hawk fans wanting to make a lop-sided trade with a team for Horford, but the Hawks will have to deal with another team (not the Cavs) that values Horford as much as Atlanta fans do.

parson · Post #25 » by **parson** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:23 pm

rjgraca wrote:I can understand Atlanta fans being going a little over board in their valuation of Horford, but he is NOT a franchise changing player. I believe the Cavs offered the 4th pick in the Irving draft and the Hawks thought the same thing that they could do better which hasn't happened yet. Horford is a good borderline All-Star talent who the Cavs don't need that much anymore--- thus not having the same value to Cavs as a couple of seasons ago before the new collective bargaining agreement that made salary cap management much more important.

A lot of NBA drafts get down graded because their are not many, if any, superstar potential talents from the College game that stand out. The Cav's Irving was drafted in such a draft class a couple of years ago. The Cavs also drafted Thompson (Horford type potential) with Irving in that draft. The Cavs have been patient with their rebuild and PF is not a position of great need for them.

I can understand Hawk fans wanting to make a lop-sided trade with a team for Horford, but the Hawks will have to deal with another team (not the Cavs) that values Horford as much as Atlanta fans do.

Didn't ask for a lopsided deal; didn't ask for any deal at all.

Just said no and told ya why.

Niko23 · Post #26 » by **Niko23** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:41 pm

I don't think you followed me in my previous post.

What I am saying is that the Cavs could very well sign Milsap/Jefferson or trade cap space for Gasol and retain the #4 or #5 pick in the draft and take Noel/Ben Mac/Otto Porter. So the combination of those assets IMO far outweigh Horford. Who I agree - is not a franchise changing type of player.

Post #27 » by **ATL Boy** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:26 am

rjgraca wrote:I can understand Atlanta fans being going a little over board in their valuation of Horford, but he is NOT a franchise changing player. I believe the Cavs offered the 4th pick in the Irving draft and the Hawks thought the same thing that they could do better which hasn't happened yet. Horford is a good borderline All-Star talent who the Cavs don't need that much anymore--- thus not having the same value to Cavs as a couple of seasons ago before the new collective bargaining agreement that made salary cap management much more important.

A lot of NBA drafts get down graded because their are not many, if any, superstar potential talents from the College game that stand out. The Cav's Irving was drafted in such a draft class a couple of years ago. The Cavs also drafted Thompson (Horford type potential) with Irving in that draft. The Cavs have been patient with their rebuild and PF is not a position of great need for them.

I can understand Hawk fans wanting to make a lop-sided trade with a team for Horford, but the Hawks will have to deal with another team (not the Cavs) that values Horford as much as Atlanta fans do.

We aren't trying to trade Horford!! You say that Horford isn't a franchise changing player but please tell me who is from this next draft class? And btw I think we did the right thing by rejected the Cavs' proposal of that 4th overall pick in the 2011 draft, there's noone from that class that we'd trade Horford for now other than Irving and maybe just maybe Enes Kanter both of whom went before the 4th overall pick. Thompson hasn't shown much so far, you say that he's a Horford potential player but every player has potential, remember busts such as Darko Milicic, Sheldon Williams, and Yi? All of them had serious potential and they busted, would you rather have a player that has a chance at being Al Horford (and a chance at busting) or would you rather have Al Horford? WE DON'T WANNA TRADE AL HORFORD!!!

tcorbin · Post #28 » by **tcorbin** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:47 am

rjgraca wrote:I can understand Atlanta fans being going a little over board in their valuation of Horford, but he is NOT a franchise changing player. I believe the Cavs offered the 4th pick in the Irving draft and the Hawks thought the same thing that they could do better which hasn't happened yet. Horford is a good borderline All-Star talent who the Cavs don't need that much anymore--- thus not having the same value to Cavs as a couple of seasons ago before the new collective bargaining agreement that made salary cap management much more important.

A lot of NBA drafts get down graded because their are not many, if any, superstar potential talents from the College game that stand out. The Cav's Irving was drafted in such a draft class a couple of years ago. The Cavs also drafted Thompson (Horford type potential) with Irving in that draft. The Cavs have been patient with their rebuild and PF is not a position of great need for them.

I can understand Hawk fans wanting to make a lop-sided trade with a team for Horford, but the Hawks will have to deal with another team (not the Cavs) that values Horford as much as Atlanta fans do.

You have it so wrong. Horford's value comes from the fact that he is an underpaid All Star. You need to do your research first and look at Horford's contract.

azuresou1 · Post #29 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:04 am

Let me put it this way:

The difference between Al Horford and Kris Humphries is only $3 million in contract, but a world apart in talent.

Post #30 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:51 am

Yeah, but I think everyone would agree that Humphies is grossly overpaid. That's just a bad example

azuresou1 · Post #31 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:54 pm

TheOUTLAW wrote:Yeah, but I think everyone would agree that Humphies is grossly overpaid. That's just a bad example

You're welcome to look around the league and see how many scrub big men are being paid big money, and how underpaid Horford is in comparison. Or even take average bigs like Nene or Okafor. Both are being paid more than Horford.

You find me some other 25 year old All-Star bigs who can legitimately man the 5 spot being paid a flat $12million for multiple seasons.

Niko23 · Post #32 » by **Niko23** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:57 am

How about Noah? (5yrs 60 million) He is 28 - but Horford will be 27 in June......
How about LMA? (5yrs 65 million)

Just some fun research shows those scrub big men in the previous 3 seasons before their extensions averaged:

Okafor (6yrs and 72 million or 12 per)
14 and 10.5 ish

Nene (5yrs 65 Million or 12ish)
14.5 and 7.5 ish

As for Horford
12 and 9 ish - even though the 1st year was his rookie year

rjgraca · Post #33 » by **rjgraca** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:59 am

Some Atlanta Fans have it so wrong... most Cavs fans don't want Horford and you are welcome to keep him and the hyperbole that comes along with him. Horford is a good borderline All-Star and is paid accordingly.

parson · Post #34 » by **parson** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:06 am

rjgraca wrote:Some Atlanta Fans have it so wrong... most Cavs fans don't want Horford and you are welcome to keep him and the hyperbole that comes along with him. Horford is a good borderline All-Star and is paid accordingly.

Ever feel like a salmon swimming upstream? It was YOUR guy who made the offer. WE simply said no and told y'all why. Where are you coming from?

crazybranman360 · Post #35 » by **crazybranman360** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:22 am

tcorbin wrote:
crazybranman360 wrote:If Atlanta stared Smith-Horford-Dwight everybody would just collapse the paint on them the same way they do to Memphis this year. To have 3 post players on the front line just doesn't work (see 2011 knicks). Smith would basically be forced out to the perimeter where he can shoot jumpers all day, the absolute worst scenario for him. Horford provides good spacing for Dwight, Smith provides good spacing for Dwight but together? It would be disasterous.

The other aspect of this is that they would need other pieces, Dwight + Josh alone can't win you a title, they need starting wings, a bench, etc.

And what if they don't get Dwight? Doesn't this trade seem even better for ATL because you don't want to be stuck in the middle w/ Horford and this gives you an oppurtunity to start to build a new core

...... you make a really good point there

..... i got this bro

Obviously the spacing would be better with better shooting at the guard spots. My main point was really that Josh Smith at the 3 is a horrible idea if your spacing for Horford + Dwight. Its not like Josh can go to the post with those two players playing together + if hes playing on the perimeter, why would you want him?

jman2585 · Post #36 » by **jman2585** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:48 am

The Hawks don't want to trade Horford at all, and not for this certainly. Horford is basically untradable to be honest.

rjgraca · Post #37 » by **rjgraca** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:21 pm

parson wrote:
rjgraca wrote:Some Atlanta Fans have it so wrong... most Cavs fans don't want Horford and you are welcome to keep him and the hyperbole that comes along with him. Horford is a good borderline All-Star and is paid accordingly.

Ever feel like a salmon swimming upstream? It was YOUR guy who made the offer. WE simply said no and told y'all why. Where are you coming from?

I guess your the guy on the soapbox trying to convince yourself that Horford is better than he is, but this is NOT the Atlanta board and hyperbole doesn't fly well here. The OP is in the minority (for Cav fans and is not my guy) and rarely posts on the Cavs board here on RealGM. I guess I must bluntly state that most Cav fans (including myself) were not for this trade ideal while some Atlanta fans had a need to convince themselves and post just like they post on the Atlanta board in this thread which is amusing, but not taken as fact here on the trade board.

parson · Post #38 » by **parson** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:41 pm

rjgraca wrote:
parson wrote:
rjgraca wrote:Some Atlanta Fans have it so wrong... most Cavs fans don't want Horford and you are welcome to keep him and the hyperbole that comes along with him. Horford is a good borderline All-Star and is paid accordingly.

Ever feel like a salmon swimming upstream? It was YOUR guy who made the offer. WE simply said no and told y'all why. Where are you coming from?

I guess your the guy on the soapbox trying to convince yourself that Horford is better than he is, but this is NOT the Atlanta board and hyperbole doesn't fly well here. The OP is in the minority (for Cav fans and is not my guy) and rarely posts on the Cavs board here on RealGM. I guess I must bluntly state that most Cav fans (including myself) were not for this trade ideal while some Atlanta fans had a need to convince themselves and post just like they post on the Atlanta board in this thread which is amusing, but not taken as fact here on the trade board.

You're kinda full of yourself, aren't you? Or full of something.

We don't like this trade; we don't want this trade. All the rest of this . . . junk is just you pontificating. Get over yourself. Unless you're supporting the OP with your argument, then the argument that you and your straw man are having is boring and irrelevant to this thread.

By the way, last night, Horford went 23/22 against the Pistons.

rjgraca · Post #39 » by **rjgraca** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:51 am

parson wrote:You're kinda full of yourself, aren't you? Or full of something.

We don't like this trade; we don't want this trade. All the rest of this . . . junk is just you pontificating. Get over yourself. Unless you're supporting the OP with your argument, then the argument that you and your straw man are having is boring and irrelevant to this thread.

By the way, last night, Horford went 23/22 against the Pistons.

All you need to do is to look in mirror if you want to see someone full of themselves.

Most Cav fans don't do this trade either and the rest of your post is just self adulation on your part. Blowing smoke for Horford is not admirable on the trade board and I also explained to some Atlanta fans about why the Cavs wouldn't do too and all your post is Horford hero worship and you expect everyone else to suck it up. Oh, last nights box score watching didn't change the perception from other team's fans that Horford is a borderline All-Star. Get over your hero worship on the trade board--- please leave it for the Hawks board.

Orlando's Nikola Vucevic had a 20 something and 30 rebound game earlier this season which made him a franchise changing player, according to some Atlanta fans and their player measurements. :roll:

parson · Post #40 » by **parson** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:34 am

rjgraca wrote:Blowing smoke for Horford is not admirable on the trade board and I also explained to some Atlanta fans about why the Cavs wouldn't do too and all your post is Horford hero worship and you expect everyone else to suck it up. Oh, last nights box score watching didn't change the perception from other team's fans that Horford is a borderline All-Star. Get over your hero worship on the trade board--- please leave it for the Hawks board.

Erm, the discussion was the value of Al Horford. I presented my opinion of Horford's worth. That's not "hero worship," it's the way grownups discuss trades. I don't know why I make you so mad, although I'm getting tired of the stupid insults. You're not quite bright; I get that. You don't value Al Horford; I get that. What I don't get is why you're so mad about it. You and I disagree on a basketball player. Your need for infantile insults is confusing.

I think I'm done with you - which is probably what you wanted in the first place: for anyone disagreeing with you to shut up.