Boston and New York

[Smitty731]

This assumes that Boston wants to blow it up and start over with as much cap flexibility as possible. New York is obviously trying to load up and go for it.

Boston trades: Brandon Bass, Jeff Green, Rajon Rondo, Gerald Wallace
Boston acquires: Andrea Bargnani, Tim Hardaway Jr., Amare Stoudemire, future first round pick

New York trades: Andrea Bargnani, Tim Hardaway Jr., Amare Stoudemire, future first round pick
New York acquires: Brandon Bass, Jeff Green, Rajon Rondo, Gerald Wallace

Why for Boston? They move all the players who are no longer necessary (Bass, Green and Rondo) on a rebuilding team. They also dump Wallace. Bargnani and Stoudemire are expiring. Hardaway is a nice player who adds much needed shooting for Boston. And they add additional first round pick to their treasure chest.

Why for New York? They go all in and make a run in a fairly wide open Eastern Conference. Bargnani and Stoudemire aren't a big part of anything for this year. Hardaway is a little redundant with Shumpert, Smith and Ellington. This would leave the Knicks with a lineup of:

Dalembert/Tyler/Aldrich
Bass/Jason Smith
Anthony/Green/Wallace
Shumpert/J.R. Smith/Ellington
Rondo/Calderon/Prigioni/Larkin

That is a good, deep team. I'd put it on par with most other teams in the East as they stand currently. They also have the flexibility to play small with Anthony and Green at SF/PF. I also think Rondo would be happy to stay in NY long term.

[rein08]

Seems nice to see Rondo pair with Melo but I think he's not a fit for the triangle

On the other side in Boston, with Rondo gone...Smart could see starter minutes alongside Avery Bradley so I'm all in to this for the Celtics, plus they also get Hardaway Jr., who in my book is the biggest steal in last year's draft

[BadWolf]

Boston might want to start over, but not by sending assets for nothing

[bs_and_cs]

Yeah, talk about terrible.

If you want to trade Wallace fine (I don't and since we never hear his name come up in any kind of rumors it's pretty clear Ainge doesnt want to yet either), but we have the picks and other smaller assets to accomplish that without giving up our best player to get rid of him.

Come on now....

[Smitty731]

Yeah, talk about terrible.

If you want to trade Wallace fine (I don't and since we never hear his name come up in any kind of rumors it's pretty clear Ainge doesnt want to yet either), but we have the picks and other smaller assets to accomplish that without giving up our best player to get rid of him.

Come on now....

It isn't just Wallace being attached to Rondo. It is also Green and moving Bass. I'm not in the camp that either of those deals are bad, but they aren't necessary players for the Celtics if they are rebuilding. I'd rather clear them and make room for the younger players to play.

What do you realistically think we can get for Rondo? At this point cap flexibility and a pick is probably the best we can hope for. Not that many teams have need for a PG. And, while I disagree, many seem to think he isn't or won't be the same player he was before he got hurt.

I think a deal like this accomplishes what a rebuilding team should be doing. Collect assets (in this case cap flexibility for the next couple of years and a pick) and make the team appreciably worse in the short term.

I'd much rather see the Celtics keep Rondo and go out and get someone, but that is looking less and less likely by the day. If they aren't bringing anyone in, then deal him away. There is nothing at all to be gained by sitting in the middle. Either go for it or be terrible. The middle is death in the NBA.

[cl2117]

Yeah, talk about terrible.

If you want to trade Wallace fine (I don't and since we never hear his name come up in any kind of rumors it's pretty clear Ainge doesnt want to yet either), but we have the picks and other smaller assets to accomplish that without giving up our best player to get rid of him.

Come on now....

It isn't just Wallace being attached to Rondo. It is also Green and moving Bass. I'm not in the camp that either of those deals are bad, but they aren't necessary players for the Celtics if they are rebuilding. I'd rather clear them and make room for the younger players to play.

What do you realistically think we can get for Rondo? At this point cap flexibility and a pick is probably the best we can hope for. Not that many teams have need for a PG. And, while I disagree, many seem to think he isn't or won't be the same player he was before he got hurt.

I think a deal like this accomplishes what a rebuilding team should be doing. Collect assets (in this case cap flexibility for the next couple of years and a pick) and make the team appreciably worse in the short term.

I'd much rather see the Celtics keep Rondo and go out and get someone, but that is looking less and less likely by the day. If they aren't bringing anyone in, then deal him away. There is nothing at all to be gained by sitting in the middle. Either go for it or be terrible. The middle is death in the NBA.

Cap flexibility for what though?

Bass is expiring and Green and Wallace only run more year (Green could be an expiring as well if he doesn't exercise his PO), so you're basically just clearing cap space for next summer by dumping Wallace and to a lesser extent Green a year early.

So what do you intend to do with that cap space? Chase star free agents? How are you going to appeal to them without a guy like Rondo already on the roster to make Boston more appealing? How does all that cap space benefit a team that has just fully committed to a longer rebuild by jettisoning their only remaining star and committing to the the young kids?

I just don't see it. This is trading Rondo for the sake of trading Rondo. If next summer Boston wants the same cap flexibility they get here, they can attach a middling first to Wallace to dump him as he's an expiring and probably can dump Green if he exercises his PO for nothing or a second rounder.

The main benefit from this deal is that Boston gets considerably worse by dumping Rondo and not getting any real talent in return that is going to help them win games. That's an awful deal in my books. Yeah Boston might not get the best return for him, but if they're moving Rondo there is no need to clear that cap space so reducing the return you get for him by adding in Wallace (and to a lesser extent Bass/Green) is pointless. They'd be better off taking on more salary in the short term (1-3 years) and trying to get even more for Rondo by eating bad contracts and making themselves worse over the short term, while drafting and developing young talent.

[verbal8]

I don't think Boston would put Rondo anywhere near this deal.

I could see the Knicks going for Wallace + Filler + small incentive for Amare deal. If Bogans was part of the filler and sent to a 3rd team the deal could create a nearly 10 million TPE and cut their luxury tax bill.

[Xman]

I like the idea of dumping Wallace and adding couple of guys in exchange for Amare's contract - but it made more sense 12 months ago. Now, NY can almost wait it out.

As far as Rondo goes, I think they can get more. dumping Wallace has value but Philly is in position to take him and their demands should not be too bad. I will say though - not a large market for Rondo since most teams have a pg or do not want to deal with signing him after the season. But, I thin Rox would top this offer: Picks (NOP 2015 first and a 2015 2nd), Motie, Capela, Gee and Hopson nongrty contracts, Canaan, JPowell for Rondo. Houston could also take Bass for the TE.
This would be much better for Boston - and I think Rox would offer this or something close to get him.

[AmareNY]

Knicks can sign Rondo for free at the end of the season, but I doubt Phil see's Rondo as a good fit for the triangle offense.

[melo mvp 15]

I was saying this all of last year... NY's major incentive for Boston in a Rondo deal would be to shave the long term deals of Wallace and Green off for them. HOWEVER, now I don't think there's any way NY does this. I'm not doubting how fantastic Rondo is (top 5 PG), but I don't think he's worth giving up almost every asset and all future flexibility and capspace. We'd be stuck with just the MLE to improve. Especially when we just solidified our PG position (Calderon, Larkin, and Pablo). Rondo is miles better than Calderon, but not enough so to justify the cost. This might've made more sense if we didn't' trade Tyson because then we could at least go over the cap to keep Tyson and still have Rondo (both because of bird rights)

I'd rather take my chances with this squad for next season and trying our luck in 2015. Rondo is good enough to secure a playoff spot this year, but we wouldn't be that competitive in the playoffs and there'd be like no room for improvement.

[jayjaysee]

I think it makes sense to trade Rondo, Green and Bass together.

Adding Wallace is not necessary and only hurts the value. The top three are positive/neutral.. Wallace weighs them down.

Boston can either A- still have 20+ mil cap space next offseason to eat a bad contract for an asset (I don't see many realistic targets there though) or if they win the lottery and are attractive to two max free agents - can dump Wallace using the Clippers pick and sign two max free agents in 2015.

Either way - trading Rondo, Bass, Green TODAY(or before the season starts) makes sense as it clears minutes for young guys and hurts the on court production for the tank.. And brings assets back to Boston.. Wallace won't make the team better this year.. And he hurts the value coming back to Boston.

Wallace getting dumped only makes sense if it is to keep Rondo and sign a max on top of bringing Rondo back this summer. And the deal would have to be an equally terrible expiring so the price is just one year of Wallace not two.. JJB, LRMAM for Wallace, clippers pick, a second.. Or the such..

[Xman]

NY has about 41 mil committed for next year (38.4 plus holds).

So, they can wait and have about 21 mil in space and bring in a big free agent (not sure who is left (KLove to CLE, LMA to Portland, etc.). That leaves Rondo out there. Randolph, Boozer, Gasol, Dragic - good but not great.

The trick for NY will be converting those expirings into more. The deal above makes sense for Boston at the trade deadline if no better offers. NY would look to deal Wallace at the next deadline.

Package of deals at trade deadline:
NY sends Bargnani to Minny for Pekovic (or to Milw for Sanders)
NY sends Amare and a pick to Boston for Rondo and Wallace (could include expiring salary to match JGreen if Boston wanted it).

Next year - NY would look to deal the expirings again - Wallace 10.1, JRSmith 6.4, and maybe Green 9.2

[Smitty731]

Cap flexibility for what though?

Bass is expiring and Green and Wallace only run more year (Green could be an expiring as well if he doesn't exercise his PO), so you're basically just clearing cap space for next summer by dumping Wallace and to a lesser extent Green a year early.

So what do you intend to do with that cap space? Chase star free agents? How are you going to appeal to them without a guy like Rondo already on the roster to make Boston more appealing? How does all that cap space benefit a team that has just fully committed to a longer rebuild by jettisoning their only remaining star and committing to the the young kids?

I just don't see it. This is trading Rondo for the sake of trading Rondo. If next summer Boston wants the same cap flexibility they get here, they can attach a middling first to Wallace to dump him as he's an expiring and probably can dump Green if he exercises his PO for nothing or a second rounder.

The main benefit from this deal is that Boston gets considerably worse by dumping Rondo and not getting any real talent in return that is going to help them win games. That's an awful deal in my books. Yeah Boston might not get the best return for him, but if they're moving Rondo there is no need to clear that cap space so reducing the return you get for him by adding in Wallace (and to a lesser extent Bass/Green) is pointless. They'd be better off taking on more salary in the short term (1-3 years) and trying to get even more for Rondo by eating bad contracts and making themselves worse over the short term, while drafting and developing young talent.

I see your point, but I don't agree that this is trading Rondo for the sake of trading Rondo. If this year goes how it looks like it is going to go, which is poorly, Rondo is likely leaving. Then he left and the team got nothing for him. Actually, they probably got a better year than was necessary. If he is leaving anyway, and that is looking more and more likely, I'd rather accelerate the process, get some assets and let Smart play PG off the jump.

The deal I proposed wasn't just for cap flexibility as well. It was for cap flexibility AND Hardaway AND a pick. Everyone seems to leaving out the last two parts. Not that either of those are expected to be an amazing all star talent, but the Celtics aren't getting that in return for Rondo anyway.

As for what would they do with the space, they could be in the mix for any type of trade possible. Or they could overpay for a major FA. Boston is not really a FA destination, so the Celtics would have to overpay. At that point, you have a year of experience for the young players, a likely good pick in what is looking like another deep draft, and space. Much better than a year with guys playing behind Rondo, Bass and Green, a middling pick, and not as much space, along with Rondo likely walking for nothing.

I wish it was different, but the Celtics are in a messy place right now. Not bad enough to be at the top of the lottery, and nowhere near good enough to contend. I sound like a broken record, but go one way or the other. In this case, being really bad and collecting assets seems the far more likely route.

[basketballwacko2]

Ehh If I'm the Celtics I'd do Bass, Green and Wallace for Amare, THJ and a #1. Then look to move Rondo in a 2nd deal and get something good for him. Attaching him to the OP's deal and getting only Bargnani makes no sense at all.

[Smitty731]

Ehh If I'm the Celtics I'd do Bass, Green and Wallace for Amare, THJ and a #1. Then look to move Rondo in a 2nd deal and get something good for him. Attaching him to the OP's deal and getting only Bargnani makes no sense at all.

The Knicks aren't giving Hardaway and a 1st in a deal that doesn't involve Rondo coming back. Especially if they have to eat Wallace's deal.

[cl2117]

Cap flexibility for what though?

Bass is expiring and Green and Wallace only run more year (Green could be an expiring as well if he doesn't exercise his PO), so you're basically just clearing cap space for next summer by dumping Wallace and to a lesser extent Green a year early.

So what do you intend to do with that cap space? Chase star free agents? How are you going to appeal to them without a guy like Rondo already on the roster to make Boston more appealing? How does all that cap space benefit a team that has just fully committed to a longer rebuild by jettisoning their only remaining star and committing to the the young kids?

I just don't see it. This is trading Rondo for the sake of trading Rondo. If next summer Boston wants the same cap flexibility they get here, they can attach a middling first to Wallace to dump him as he's an expiring and probably can dump Green if he exercises his PO for nothing or a second rounder.

The main benefit from this deal is that Boston gets considerably worse by dumping Rondo and not getting any real talent in return that is going to help them win games. That's an awful deal in my books. Yeah Boston might not get the best return for him, but if they're moving Rondo there is no need to clear that cap space so reducing the return you get for him by adding in Wallace (and to a lesser extent Bass/Green) is pointless. They'd be better off taking on more salary in the short term (1-3 years) and trying to get even more for Rondo by eating bad contracts and making themselves worse over the short term, while drafting and developing young talent.

I see your point, but I don't agree that this is trading Rondo for the sake of trading Rondo. If this year goes how it looks like it is going to go, which is poorly, Rondo is likely leaving. Then he left and the team got nothing for him. Actually, they probably got a better year than was necessary. If he is leaving anyway, and that is looking more and more likely, I'd rather accelerate the process, get some assets and let Smart play PG off the jump.

The deal I proposed wasn't just for cap flexibility as well. It was for cap flexibility AND Hardaway AND a pick. Everyone seems to leaving out the last two parts. Not that either of those are expected to be an amazing all star talent, but the Celtics aren't getting that in return for Rondo anyway.

As for what would they do with the space, they could be in the mix for any type of trade possible. Or they could overpay for a major FA. Boston is not really a FA destination, so the Celtics would have to overpay. At that point, you have a year of experience for the young players, a likely good pick in what is looking like another deep draft, and space. Much better than a year with guys playing behind Rondo, Bass and Green, a middling pick, and not as much space, along with Rondo likely walking for nothing.

I wish it was different, but the Celtics are in a messy place right now. Not bad enough to be at the top of the lottery, and nowhere near good enough to contend. I sound like a broken record, but go one way or the other. In this case, being really bad and collecting assets seems the far more likely route.

I'm not trying to suggest Boston shouldn't be trading Rondo. If this year is going to be as bad as it looks like then Ainge should look to move Rondo because I can't see him coming back for a few more years of rebuilding. But I wouldn't move him for what amounts to Hardaway Jr., a future first in the 20s from the Knicks and getting to keep the Clippers or Sixers 2015 pick, which is what I would expect it to take to dump Wallace's expiring next summer.

There's not enough there to convince me to trade Rondo before I absolutely have to. I realize that the Celtics aren't going to get what they'd like in a Rondo deal because as you said before there isn't a real need league wide, but I don't think missing out on that package would haunt me if Rondo ended up walking for nothing or was traded for a lesser package.

I like Hardaway Jr. I really do, but odds are he ends up as a good role player. That first is going to be in the 20's because i think a Melo/Rondo lead team with Phil Jackson at the helm is making the playoffs every year in the East. And dumping Wallace isn't necessary until next summer, when it would cost a lot less than it does now.

I agree that I'd like to see Bass and Green go because I think it'll open some minutes for younger players and also should help lose a few more games, but I'd rather not trade Rondo purely to get worse. Yeah he will carry them to a few extra wins, but if they lean heavily on the young kids it's not going to be that many. There could be a better market at Christmas or the trade deadline depending on how things shape up/injuries etc. Even if there isn't a better market, if the Knicks would do this today they'd do it 6 months from now because it means they want to be a respectable contender in the east this year rather than wait until next year.

And let's say somehow Ainge holds onto Rondo all year and does nothing with him but let him hurt the tank and teach Smart. They could still overpay Rondo to stay rather than overpaying an outside free agent, move Wallace's expiring deal with one of their firsts and still chase another big name free agent and/or dangle Smart for the best available players on the market.

I'm just not at the point with Rondo that I'd make this trade. I can see maybe in the future if things just aren't shaping up in terms of trades either to make the Celtics better or for Rondo and he seems disgruntled that I'd entertain this, but not yet.

[Rockazoids]

Ehh If I'm the Celtics I'd do Bass, Green and Wallace for Amare, THJ and a #1. Then look to move Rondo in a 2nd deal and get something good for him. Attaching him to the OP's deal and getting only Bargnani makes no sense at all.

The Knicks aren't giving Hardaway and a 1st in a deal that doesn't involve Rondo coming back. Especially if they have to eat Wallace's deal.

I don't think they should give up THJ or a 1st for Rondo. They gutted the team to get Melo & that didn't
work to well. Next year try to get him as a UFA when it will be easier to dump Calderon. SG is the
weakest in the NBA right now, you don't trade a good one who can shoot. THJ my be the next
Allen Houston (with good knees)

[Celts17Pride]

Just horrible. Smh

[basketballwacko2]

Ehh If I'm the Celtics I'd do Bass, Green and Wallace for Amare, THJ and a #1. Then look to move Rondo in a 2nd deal and get something good for him. Attaching him to the OP's deal and getting only Bargnani makes no sense at all.

The Knicks aren't giving Hardaway and a 1st in a deal that doesn't involve Rondo coming back. Especially if they have to eat Wallace's deal.

If they wanted to unload Amare and get productive players like Bass and Green they are gonna have to pay taking Wallace would be part of that. Maybe they wouldn't give THJ and the #1 but I'd want one or the other. No way I'd give them Rondo and have to take a nearly worthless Bargnani.

[Rockazoids]

Ehh If I'm the Celtics I'd do Bass, Green and Wallace for Amare, THJ and a #1. Then look to move Rondo in a 2nd deal and get something good for him. Attaching him to the OP's deal and getting only Bargnani makes no sense at all.

The Knicks aren't giving Hardaway and a 1st in a deal that doesn't involve Rondo coming back. Especially if they have to eat Wallace's deal.

If they wanted to unload Amare and get productive players like Bass and Green they are gonna have to pay taking Wallace would be part of that. Maybe they wouldn't give THJ and the #1 but I'd want one or the other. No way I'd give them Rondo and have to take a nearly worthless Bargnani.

Are you saying Amare wasn't productive ? When healthy (last two month of year) he put up
15.5 PPG
5.9 RPG
.6005 FG%
28.1 MPG
played 65 games last year
witch is crap for what he's being paid $21.7 M but
name ppg /rpg/ /fg% /mpg/ GP
Bass 11.1/ 5.7 /0.486/ 27.6 /82
Green 16.9/4.6/ 0.412/ 34.2 /82
Wallace 5.1/3.7/0.504/ 24.4 /58

total 11.0/ 4.6/ 0.467/28.7/74
at a cost of $26.2 M per year(with Green & Wallace 1 more year @$ 19.3M)
Now NO WAY!!! am I saying NY can get Rondo for THJ & a 1st but what I'm saying is the filler suck.
BOS would do better sending Rondo to HOU for their assets.