I just became the Suns GM in Crazyland.

[CBFAlex]

Detroit would match on that contract

[CBFAlex]

Taj has gone from nice to overrated. I stand behind the Markieff is => Gibson. Taj Gibson's PER is 16 (just above average), Kieff's is 18.5. Now PER is not perfect, but it is designed to take into account defense as well as offense. That number suggests that his strength on defense is not enough to offset what other players are doing to him in other ways.

Not really. PER takes into account only blocks and steals, which are pretty imperfect measures of defense. Hollinger himself freely admits this.

Blocks and steals are defense, and as my post states, PER is not perfect, as you mention. What that says is Taj is not great at blocks and steals. Man-to-man defense is his strength, but that impact doesn't hold up in his win shares rating. Taj was less impactful on an arguably worse team than the Suns. Arguably worse in that CHI had 48 wins in the easier conference and division.

I very much agree that if a poll were taken most would probably say that Taj has more value, but I don't agree that is how GM's will make their assessment. Most people have not watched Kieff Morris work. There is a disconnect there. I think GM's will value what Kieff brings more than the casual fans we see on RGM, unless they take the time to look at the numbers and the film.

Defense is an impossible thing to try an define with stats, asnd PER is a terrible measurement, to use your argument and basing of PER then Brandon Wright and Amare Stoudimire are better then both of them

[NashtyNas]

Markieff is arguably a better player than Gibson straight up. No deal.

I love me some Kieff, but come on ... this is straight up delusional.

So are most of the trades by OP.
Not happening.
Signings DEFINITELY not happening.

We don't want Barbosa at this point I don't think or we would have him.

Just ridiculous all around - crazyland indeed.

[bondom34]

PER is not at all meant to measure defense. Sure, blocks and steals are fine, but why not just count them and say that the best defenders lead the league in those stats? Try DRAPM or D Win Shares (I prefer DRAPM)...


DRAPM:
Gotbuckets -
Taj: 2.59
Morris: -1.05 (not even remotely close)
Just FYI the difference is similar to the comparison of Dwight Howard and Greg Monroe.

Engelmann:
Taj: 2.3
Morris: -0.1
Again, this difference is slightly less than comparing Dwight to Monroe.

D Win Shares:
Taj: 4.4
Morris: 2.4

[SideSwipe]

Not really. PER takes into account only blocks and steals, which are pretty imperfect measures of defense. Hollinger himself freely admits this.

Blocks and steals are defense, and as my post states, PER is not perfect, as you mention. What that says is Taj is not great at blocks and steals. Man-to-man defense is his strength, but that impact doesn't hold up in his win shares rating. Taj was less impactful on an arguably worse team than the Suns. Arguably worse in that CHI had 48 wins in the easier conference and division.

I very much agree that if a poll were taken most would probably say that Taj has more value, but I don't agree that is how GM's will make their assessment. Most people have not watched Kieff Morris work. There is a disconnect there. I think GM's will value what Kieff brings more than the casual fans we see on RGM, unless they take the time to look at the numbers and the film.

Defense is an impossible thing to try an define with stats, asnd PER is a terrible measurement, to use your argument and basing of PER then Brandon Wright and Amare Stoudimire are better then both of them

Try to read the post before posting yourself. I already stated that PER is imperfect(yes, yes, we hear it ad nauseam), but it is an indicator of player performance. On the flipside nobody is arguing that Taj isn't a better defender. He clearly is. Only that his overall game impact is not that much better, if any better than Markieff's clear scoring advantage. In analyzing trade value age is a factor and Markieff is 4 years younger, giving him an advantage on that for trade purposes.

[Golabki]

Markieff => Gibson in value.

I totally agree... as long as the NBA is changing the rules so that defense is no longer part of the game.

[Boarder Patrol]

Markieff => Gibson in value.

I totally agree... as long as the NBA is changing the rules so that defense is no longer part of the game.

I don't get posts like this at all. Why not just say you disagree?

Also, you're confusing current production with value. Gibson is 29 and a career 9/6 guy. He's reached his ceiling. Kieff is only 24 and has considerably more room to grow. His W/S, TS, PER and ORTG already pass Taj convincingly.

Kieff has more trade value.

[Boarder Patrol]

Markieff is arguably a better player than Gibson straight up. No deal.

I love me some Kieff, but come on ... this is straight up delusional.

So are most of the trades by OP.
Not happening.
Signings DEFINITELY not happening.

We don't want Barbosa at this point I don't think or we would have him.

Just ridiculous all around - crazyland indeed.

Kieff isn't a better player but has more value. As I said above, his W/S, TS, ORTG and PER already surpass Taj. Taj is a career 9/6 guy and his potential is realized. Kieff has more room to grow. It's not outlandish at all to say Kieff has more value.

[Golabki]

Markieff => Gibson in value.

I totally agree... as long as the NBA is changing the rules so that defense is no longer part of the game.

I don't get posts like this at all. Why not just say you disagree?

Also, you're confusing current production with value. Gibson is 29 and a career 9/6 guy. He's reached his ceiling. Kieff is only 24 and has considerably more room to grow. His W/S, TS, PER and ORTG already pass Taj convincingly.

Kieff has more trade value.

If you want to go by stats xRAPM (or RPM) which is a much better all-in stat than the ones you listed has Taj as an elite role-player and Morris as an mediocre starter/pretty good bench player.

My view on offense -

Morris is the better ballhandler/passer/shooter - but he's not a consistent 3 point shooter and he's not a good enough ballhander/passer to be a guy you really want to run offense through.

Gibson is MUCH less skilled but he makes up for it with great off-ball cutting and finishing at the rim.

Offensively morris is better, but the difference is small.


On Defense -

Morris is a pretty average defensive combo forward.

Gibson is a top 5 defensive PF who is great in help defense and a versatile enough man defender to play man against both the LBJ and the Zach Randolph.


Admittedly, Gibson might be more of a "system guy" than I think, but I wouldn't trade him for Josh McRoberts, let alone a poor man's Josh McRoberts.

[NashtyNas]

Kieff does NOT have more trade value.
If anyone is the product of a system, it is Kieff not Gibson.
Gibson is one of the best defensive PF's IN THE LEAGUE. You can't say that about any attribute that Markieff possesses.
I love me some Morris brothers, and I am a huge fan of the Suns - but I won't be delusional and say that he has more value than Gibson. Judging a players value simply based on stats, "advanced" or not, is just unfair.

Kief, much like the entire Suns roster, over achieved last season.

If I wanted a winning team and the more impactful player, I would go with Gibson 10/10 times. He is the more complete player and his impact defensively is far more valuable than whatever advantages Morris has on him offensively.

[Scoot McGroot]

Blocks and steals are defense.....

Whoa, there's a massive failure right there.

So, Jamaal Tinsley, one of the worst defensive PG's of the last 15 years, is a great defender because he averaged about 1.5 steals per game during his Pacers run? All while playing matador defense?

Blocks and steals are stats.....not necessarily defense. They could be indicative of defense, but not directly correlated, nor true causation for calling someone a defender.

Therein may lie your issue here.

[jayjaysee]

I don't think the Suns do the OP because..they might think one of the four guys they are giving up could mean more to them then Taj in 3-4 years.. And the cap flexibility the kids offer compared to Taj.. But considering 3 of the Suns players are expirings (Morri/Randolph) maybe the Suns would do the OP if they expect Markieff to get some 8-10 mil offer because of how good he looked under this coach. He definitely worked on his game last offseason - so it might be best for the Suns to be trying to lock him up as soon as possible hoping he improved again..

And I don't think the Bulls do it because assuming Rose is healthy, there is no reason to not expect them in the ECF in a great series with Cleveland and this is a step backwards this season. And with Mirotic, I don't know if the Bulls would value Kieff like other teams. Nor do I think they'd want to trade Taj for a guy they might have to pay similar to Taj who doesn't bring the same game that he does..

If Phoenix would sign off one a Kieff/Goodwin/Randolph for Gibson deal, there might be a third team with a wing that Chicago would be willing to take in Gibson's spot. Don't ask me who. Afflalo always makes sense - but not for the pieces Phx is giving up.. Burks+Booker would be an interesting get for Chicago actually.. But I'm a much bigger Burks fan than most people. Utah might like the idea of a Favors/Keiff front court thanks to Keiff's range..

[Mr Swagtastic]

I doubt The Bulls do this on paper they are the team to beat in The Eastern Conference. Taj Gibson is great value and a very good defensive player. Morris is what he is a good young player but it's not near the level Taj is now. I don't buy the PER angle yes it's okay to use it to some extent but to me I rather have a proven track record guy in Gibson.

If your using PER then guys like Jordan Hill have more value then Aldridge and Melo which is laughable.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[SideSwipe]

Blocks and steals are defense.....

Whoa, there's a massive failure right there.

So, Jamaal Tinsley, one of the worst defensive PG's of the last 15 years, is a great defender because he averaged about 1.5 steals per game during his Pacers run? All while playing matador defense?

Blocks and steals are stats.....not necessarily defense. They could be indicative of defense, but not directly correlated, nor true causation for calling someone a defender.

Therein may lie your issue here.

Nobody said that just because someone got steals and blocks they are great defenders, but yes those two stats support that a person plays some defense. Defense is any act that, within the rules of the game, prevents an opposing team from scoring. Those two stats are in fact specifically there for defensive purposes. You are confusing man-to-man defense with team defense, and seem to give no middle ground. Some people are great at team defense, but bad at man-to-man and vice-versa. Also, everybody here agrees that Taj Gibson is the better defender. Hands down, no question. Period. Uncontested. Remind me again where the massive failure was? It would seem that not equating steals and blocks to defense might just be more of a fail.

Impact is about more than just defense.

[SideSwipe]

I doubt The Bulls do this on paper they are the team to beat in The Eastern Conference. Taj Gibson is great value and a very good defensive player. Morris is what he is a good young player but it's not near the level Taj is now. I don't buy the PER angle yes it's okay to use it to some extent but to me I rather have a proven track record guy in Gibson.

If your using PER then guys like Jordan Hill have more value then Aldridge and Melo which is laughable.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using RealGM Forums mobile app

PER is never the full picture, but it can be a leading indicator, and in Morris's case there is plenty more to investigate.

[Scoot McGroot]

Blocks and steals are defense.....

Whoa, there's a massive failure right there.

So, Jamaal Tinsley, one of the worst defensive PG's of the last 15 years, is a great defender because he averaged about 1.5 steals per game during his Pacers run? All while playing matador defense?

Blocks and steals are stats.....not necessarily defense. They could be indicative of defense, but not directly correlated, nor true causation for calling someone a defender.

Therein may lie your issue here.

Nobody said that just because someone got steals and blocks they are great defenders, but yes those two stats support that a person plays some defense. Defense is any act that, within the rules of the game, prevents an opposing team from scoring. Those two stats are in fact specifically there for defensive purposes. You are confusing man-to-man defense with team defense, and seem to give no middle ground. Some people are great at team defense, but bad at man-to-man and vice-versa. Also, everybody here agrees that Taj Gibson is the better defender. Hands down, no question. Period. Uncontested. Remind me again where the massive failure was? It would seem that not equating steals and blocks to defense might just be more of a fail.

Impact is about more than just defense.

Ok. So you're going to argue "bad defense is still defense"?

Long story short, a guy can average a lot of steals and blocks and still be a horrible defender. As I quoted earlier, Jamaal Tinsley. Was one of the tops in the league during his Pacers days in steals. Horrible defender. Steals and blocks are stats that merely keep track of occurrences. They don't at all tell the story on good or bad defense. That's like saying that PPG is the be all, end all of offensive talent.

And I believe that some were trying to argue that Markieff was as good or a better defender than Taj. That was a problem.

[SideSwipe]

Whoa, there's a massive failure right there.

So, Jamaal Tinsley, one of the worst defensive PG's of the last 15 years, is a great defender because he averaged about 1.5 steals per game during his Pacers run? All while playing matador defense?

Blocks and steals are stats.....not necessarily defense. They could be indicative of defense, but not directly correlated, nor true causation for calling someone a defender.

Therein may lie your issue here.

Nobody said that just because someone got steals and blocks they are great defenders, but yes those two stats support that a person plays some defense. Defense is any act that, within the rules of the game, prevents an opposing team from scoring. Those two stats are in fact specifically there for defensive purposes. You are confusing man-to-man defense with team defense, and seem to give no middle ground. Some people are great at team defense, but bad at man-to-man and vice-versa. Also, everybody here agrees that Taj Gibson is the better defender. Hands down, no question. Period. Uncontested. Remind me again where the massive failure was? It would seem that not equating steals and blocks to defense might just be more of a fail.

Impact is about more than just defense.

Ok. So you're going to argue "bad defense is still defense"?

Long story short, a guy can average a lot of steals and blocks and be a good team defenderand still be a horrible man-to-man defender. As I quoted earlier, Jamaal Tinsley. Was one of the tops in the league during his Pacers days in steals. Horrible defender. Steals and blocks are stats that merely keep track of occurrences. They don't at all tell the story on good or bad defense. That's like saying that PPG is the be all, end all of offensive talent.

And I believe that some were trying to argue that Markieff was as good or a better defender than Taj. That was a problem.

fixed!

Every team defender, help-side defender, or zone defender would vehemently disagree with your definition of defense. Tinsley averaging steals meant that he was good at reading the offense and shooting the gap. That is defense, and generally regarded as a valuable skill to have, if you don't over gamble. This skill would fall under the team defense category. For every guy that's bodying up his man inside or on the perimeter and making him work for every inch (a great and valued skill Taj has), there is another guy knocking his guy off his pattern and exposing and exploiting poor ball handling or forced shots. Those guys are pulling the boards and steals. Forced turnovers is a great defensive stat. Deflections, points against, fouls against, even minutes played against are all interesting defensive stats to monitor.

Man-to-man defense is very positional; team defense less so. Put Chris Paul (a great defender) on Noah (a great defender) in the post and Paul will be destroyed. Put Noah on Paul on the perimeter and Noah gets destroyed. That's the type of defense you are describing. Team defense and team defensive ratings will be tracking deflections, steals, weak-side help, help blocks...all are very valuable, especially in the guard-oriented play that the league is moving to. That ball rotation on the outside means more man-up zone defenses and switching.

[bondom34]

So, since steals and blocks are defense, I assume Harden is a stronger defender than Mike Conley?

Again, try DRAPM or some other stat, but those 2 are no real indication.

[Mr Swagtastic]

I doubt The Bulls do this on paper they are the team to beat in The Eastern Conference. Taj Gibson is great value and a very good defensive player. Morris is what he is a good young player but it's not near the level Taj is now. I don't buy the PER angle yes it's okay to use it to some extent but to me I rather have a proven track record guy in Gibson.

If your using PER then guys like Jordan Hill have more value then Aldridge and Melo which is laughable.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using RealGM Forums mobile app

PER is never the full picture, but it can be a leading indicator, and in Morris's case there is plenty more to investigate.

Morris is good but Chicago isn't breaking up what they have for a shot a the twins and some fillers. Taj Gibson is in my opinion one of the best contracts in the league that is non rookie scale The Bulls easily have the best defensive 4/5 rotation. If Taj is traded it would be for a Ibaka type of player or for a legit top pick like to the 76ers or another really bad team