Khris Middleton to OKC

[Golabki]

Anyway - I'll try to keep in mind that only bucks super fans are allowed to talk about bucks players if you agree that you couldn't possibly have a valid opinion about any non-bucks.

I got no problems at all with you talking about values of players or anything, that's ones own opinion, but to talk about certain players game/skills in absolutes when you are obviously unfamiliar with them is stupid.

This is the argument that the Celtics fans who thought Rondo was better than Chris Paul used... or that thought Green was going to be an elite >20 ppg scorer last year... or that are certain within 2 years Olynyk will be the best offensive big in the NBA... And it's what the Raptors fans that compared Bargs to Dirk up to the bitter end said. My point isn't that you are nesesarily wrong about Middleton, he's young and we don't know, but the "I watch more <insert your favorite team's name> games, therefore my opinion is right and your's is wrong" argument doesn't and shouldn't hold much weight.

And again I don't hate Middleton - he's looked comptent as a second year player --- which is more than you can say for most 2nd round picks... and as I already said, he's clearly worth more than the OP offered.

It's just that a "good" defensive SF who is an excellent 3 pt shooter is, like, a REALLY REALLY valuable player that would get >$10M per year on the FA market even if he was older with no upside. So, no, I don't think that Middleton is that guy quite yet in his second year.

[skones]

Anyway - I'll try to keep in mind that only bucks super fans are allowed to talk about bucks players if you agree that you couldn't possibly have a valid opinion about any non-bucks.

I got no problems at all with you talking about values of players or anything, that's ones own opinion, but to talk about certain players game/skills in absolutes when you are obviously unfamiliar with them is stupid.

This is the argument that the Celtics fans who thought Rondo was better than Chris Paul used... or that thought Green was going to be an elite >20 ppg scorer last year... or that are certain within 2 years Olynyk will be the best offensive big in the NBA... And it's what the Raptors fans that compared Bargs to Dirk up to the bitter end said. My point isn't that you are nesesarily wrong about Middleton, he's young and we don't know, but the "I watch more <insert your favorite team's name> games, therefore my opinion is right and your's is wrong" argument doesn't and shouldn't hold much weight.

And again I don't hate Middleton - he's looked comptent as a second year player --- which is more than you can say for most 2nd round picks... and as I already said, he's clearly worth more than the OP offered.

It's just that a "good" defensive SF who is an excellent 3 pt shooter is, like, a REALLY REALLY valuable player that would get >$10M per year on the FA market even if he was older with no upside. So, no, I don't think that Middleton is that guy quite yet in his second year.

Youre right in that the "i watch more than you" argument doesn't always hold true, but when you start throwing things out like "slow" and "bad defensive player" you start to display your ignorance.

[buckboy]

Zaza/Ilyasova/Middleton for Perkins/Lamb/Jones

Hell No.

Why not?? -
No Zaza=Henson plays more
No Ilyasova=Parker players more

We need a true 2 guard - Lamb fits that

Plus we save around 11 mil next season - Sign Bledsoe outright

Middleton is worth more than cutting off 2 years of contracts imo. Lamb is terrible and Jones is worse.

this isn't even close for me.

[Golabki]

I got no problems at all with you talking about values of players or anything, that's ones own opinion, but to talk about certain players game/skills in absolutes when you are obviously unfamiliar with them is stupid.

This is the argument that the Celtics fans who thought Rondo was better than Chris Paul used... or that thought Green was going to be an elite >20 ppg scorer last year... or that are certain within 2 years Olynyk will be the best offensive big in the NBA... And it's what the Raptors fans that compared Bargs to Dirk up to the bitter end said. My point isn't that you are nesesarily wrong about Middleton, he's young and we don't know, but the "I watch more <insert your favorite team's name> games, therefore my opinion is right and your's is wrong" argument doesn't and shouldn't hold much weight.

And again I don't hate Middleton - he's looked comptent as a second year player --- which is more than you can say for most 2nd round picks... and as I already said, he's clearly worth more than the OP offered.

It's just that a "good" defensive SF who is an excellent 3 pt shooter is, like, a REALLY REALLY valuable player that would get >$10M per year on the FA market even if he was older with no upside. So, no, I don't think that Middleton is that guy quite yet in his second year.

Youre right in that the "i watch more than you" argument doesn't always hold true, but when you start throwing things out like "slow" and "bad defensive player" you start to display your ignorance.

...or you're displaying your fan bias...

[M-C-G]

Couple all that with the strength training he's been doing this season, as apparently he has been working his ass off and looks good. I'm pretty excited to see what we have, I think this guy has potential to be a Michael Redd-esque guy in this league.

WHAT?
That's coming from a Bucks fan, who should know all well how good Redd REALLY was.
Is that some sort of joke, or just an attempt to increase his value by throwing out crap and hoping it sticks?

Middleton is nice, a quality bench wing. He's worth a mid/late first, but MIL has no need to gift him at this time (other than the fact that they're loaded on wings). There is no way in hell they move him for "a 2nd or 2." They don't even move him for OKC's 1st.

They need a 18-24 type pick not the 28-30th pick in the draft for this guy.

Still, saying he has potential to be a Redd type player is somewhat ridiculous.
He's never going to be able to carry a team offensively, not even for stretches. Redd was more than capable of doing that early in his career until injuries destroyed him.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's calm down here...I didn't say he would put up Redd prime numbers, I said he could be Redd-esque... I mean that as in an efficient scorer, so everyone can put away the pitch forks.

[M-C-G]

I mean he has some of the characteristics of a young Redd

That is really all I was trying to get at...not to imply he would be an elite scorer.

[skones]

This is the argument that the Celtics fans who thought Rondo was better than Chris Paul used... or that thought Green was going to be an elite >20 ppg scorer last year... or that are certain within 2 years Olynyk will be the best offensive big in the NBA... And it's what the Raptors fans that compared Bargs to Dirk up to the bitter end said. My point isn't that you are nesesarily wrong about Middleton, he's young and we don't know, but the "I watch more <insert your favorite team's name> games, therefore my opinion is right and your's is wrong" argument doesn't and shouldn't hold much weight.

And again I don't hate Middleton - he's looked comptent as a second year player --- which is more than you can say for most 2nd round picks... and as I already said, he's clearly worth more than the OP offered.

It's just that a "good" defensive SF who is an excellent 3 pt shooter is, like, a REALLY REALLY valuable player that would get >$10M per year on the FA market even if he was older with no upside. So, no, I don't think that Middleton is that guy quite yet in his second year.

Youre right in that the "i watch more than you" argument doesn't always hold true, but when you start throwing things out like "slow" and "bad defensive player" you start to display your ignorance.

...or you're displaying your fan bias...

Which is not happening given that he's neither of the things you stated.....

[Golabki]

Youre right in that the "i watch more than you" argument doesn't always hold true, but when you start throwing things out like "slow" and "bad defensive player" you start to display your ignorance.

...or you're displaying your fan bias...

Which is not happening given that he's neither of the things you stated.....

So here's my case -

On athleticism -
His combine numbers were bad across the board - which I think is a pretty good indicator of overall athleticism. I mean, you can ignore a bad vert if other stuff is average-to-good... but that's not the case here. I also don't mind a slow player if he has great length, but Middleton doesn't have that either.

I think this agrees with the eye test. Middleton moves well in the sense that he has good balance and fluid motion, but he is significantly less explosive than most young wings in the NBA.


On defense -
He's got terrible defensive numbers (both DSPM and DRAPM are bad)

By the eye test, I think Middleton was miscast as the best defensive wing in a lot of lineups and he's the type of defender where, if he's your best man-to-man option on the perimeter you probably have a really really bad perimeter defense... which the bucks certainly did. I don't think he's necessarily atrocious or a "hider", but he's a limited player that was asked to play beyond his limits.


Again - these aren't crippling limitations, especially given he's a 2nd year player who was drafted in the 2nd round and is primarily known for his shooting. I'm just trying to be realistic.


Now, if you watched all 82 bucks games last year, you certainly watched a LOT more Middleton than I did... so maybe you saw something I didn't, and if so, great, you're a braver man than I. 82 Bucks games is a fate I wouldn't wish on Hitler.

[H2tObes]

You could say Middleton is in the Middle as far as defending goes.

I wouldn't want to watch 82 games of your favorite team either, sounds awful. Bucks should be pretty fun to watch this year though. Give it a few years and we'll see who is laughing