Bargnani to Philadelphia

[Grover]

I start with the premise that the Knicks will be bad to start the season and lose more games than Vegas believes. Most of the roster is incapable of executing the offense and playing any kind of formidable defense. Jackson should hold on to first round picks under any circumstance until the roster is that one piece away from competing for a ring. The roster currently has one piece in Melo. The Sixers are the one team capable of absorbing sufficient salary from the Knicks in order to get them under the salary apron. In addition to Bargnani, I would like to see Outlaw jettisoned from the roster as he is far too slow to be of value in a rotation. Adding the allowable $3M covers his cost but would put his cap hit on the Sixers. Adding Shumpert, Dalembert and Larkin might get it done if the Knicks were willing to take back what the Sixers likely do not want after receiving the Knick players. Richardson is obvious but Moultrie, Williams and Davies are typically not considered to have much value by their board and Ware would become expendable. The Knicks would simply waive Davies and Ware while signing Mbenga and Wear to unguaranteed deals to be waived later for better talent or used in a trade of other assets to make the numbers work and allow the other team to waive them once acquired. The loss in talent and wins is negligible compared to the ability to make additional moves to improve the squad before the trade deadline. Waiting for next year's free agent crop is a questionable bet but this deal does not effect that plan in any way unless Shumpert suddenly explodes and his value increases to the point where the Knick's offering the QO is outbid by other teams which is extremely doubtful.

[RonaldArtest]

Barfnani is going nowhere. This trade idea makes no sense for anyone.

[ckchen]

Also I believe the Sixers would have drafted Thanasis at 51 but the Knicks beat them by a pick.

I'm not so sure about this. Thanasis showed some athleticism in Delaware, but was still incredibly raw, and definitely far from dominant, and that is at a d-league level. He's already 22 (giannis' OLDER brother) - and with far less potential (and limited basketball experience). Like the Justin Holiday to Giannis' Jrue. After the Sixers drafted KJ and Grant (along with Hollis) - Thanasis would've been pretty distant 4th or 5th SF on a team already trying to develop a younger Grant. I'm definitely not sure the Sixers would've used the pick on Thanasis, even if he was still there a pick later. They drafted Micic with that pick, a 20 yr old prospect with probably higher upside (at a position they didn't just draft 3 guys in) that they knew they could stash in Europe for a couple of years and still bring over when he's still only 22 or 23. I think the Sixers were elated that Micic was still available at that pick and were definitely going to draft him if he was available, even if Thanasis had been there.

[skflives]

Wait, why is Philly giving up 2 2nds for the right to pay out more money? The max NY can pay Philly is $3.2m (Philly already received $100k in the Thabeet trade), and Bargs makes $5m more than Richardson. Why would Philly give up ANY 2nd's, or anything, to do that deal? Even waiting to the trade deadline, it's almost scratch.

Philly should be getting picks, not NY. Even if cash is attached.

This trade doesn't even get them below the luxury tax.

No, but it cuts $5m off their tax number, which is all repeater multiplied. Instead of being $16.5m over the tax for a bill of about $50m, they would drop to only $11.5m over the tax, for a luxury tax bill of about $31m. It doesn't get them below the tax, but saves the Knicks almost $21m (adding in the $5m of pure salary savings, and subtracting the max payment of $3.1m to the Sixers).

So, almost $20m in pure cash savings. And the Knicks are supposed to get 2nds, too? For Bargs? A guy that has absolutely no future in Philly, and either has to be bought out or blocks playing time for the young guys they want to actually see?

The Knicks don't seem to care about the tax.

[the_process]

Also I believe the Sixers would have drafted Thanasis at 51 but the Knicks beat them by a pick.

I'm not so sure about this. Thanasis showed some athleticism in Delaware, but was still incredibly raw, and definitely far from dominant, and that is at a d-league level. He's already 22 (giannis' OLDER brother) - and with far less potential (and limited basketball experience). Like the Justin Holiday to Giannis' Jrue. After the Sixers drafted KJ and Grant (along with Hollis) - Thanasis would've been pretty distant 4th or 5th SF on a team already trying to develop a younger Grant. I'm definitely not sure the Sixers would've used the pick on Thanasis, even if he was still there a pick later. They drafted Micic with that pick, a 20 yr old prospect with probably higher upside (at a position they didn't just draft 3 guys in) that they knew they could stash in Europe for a couple of years and still bring over when he's still only 22 or 23. I think the Sixers were elated that Micic was still available at that pick and were definitely going to draft him if he was available, even if Thanasis had been there.

Wasn't the 51 pick where they grabbed Dangubic, only to flip him to the Spurs for 58 (Jordan McRae) and 60 (sold to BKN)? I could have sworn Micic went 54th.

I agree with your assessment of Thanasis, hence terming him fringe prospect. I just think Hinkie is going to try and develop Delaware as an actual minor league team, having some continuity and continuing to develop your own players feeds into that. But if you are right and Micic was 51st can't argue that he is a better prospect and would've been the pick regardless.

[ckchen]

Wasn't the 51 pick where they grabbed Dangubic, only to flip him to the Spurs for 58 (Jordan McRae) and 60 (sold to BKN)? I could have sworn Micic went 54th.

I agree with your assessment of Thanasis, hence terming him fringe prospect. I just think Hinkie is going to try and develop Delaware as an actual minor league team, having some continuity and continuing to develop your own players feeds into that. But if you are right and Micic was 51st can't argue that he is a better prospect and would've been the pick regardless.

Nope. Micic was the 51st pick. The pick they flipped was 54. I actually had the same opinion about Delaware - but was surprised that Hinkie never signed a single Delaware player while he was running through dozens of 10-day contracts last season. Kendall Marshall (definitely a missed opportunity), Vander Blue, Tiny Gallon. Even more surprised that he also didn't use some of the younger Delaware players to stock the summer league team as well (someone like BJ Young or Gallon again) I think there were a number of guys in Delaware who he could've taken a pass at during the season, but instead he was signing the Dedmons, Nunnallys, Wares, Adonis Thomases, and Varnados from other teams. I don't fault those signings, but it definitely surprised me that Hinkie didn't use Delaware as more of a feeder situation last season vs. a place to park Lorenzo Brown, Moultrie, and Elliot Williams all year.

[chrbal]

Andrea Bargnani to Philadelphia for Jason Richardson and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. Salary wise its even. But I think Luc fits better with the Knicks then Andrea. Jason is a contract to hopefully swap out.

Philly keeps Andrea until the trade deadline instead of Luc and Jason.

OP. There is no way either team would do that trade. Which is kind of the amazing thing about it. Philly adds $5mil in payroll to get maybe $3mil in cash from New York. They also trade 2nds for what reason now?

New York goes from a guy who has been disappointing at best to a guy who can't play anymore, just to add some 2nds.

[HartfordWhalers]

Andrea Bargnani to Philadelphia for Jason Richardson and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. Salary wise its even. But I think Luc fits better with the Knicks then Andrea. Jason is a contract to hopefully swap out.

Philly keeps Andrea until the trade deadline instead of Luc and Jason.

So Philly dumps Embiid's mentor and a guy on insurance for Bargs who is worse than LRMM? Wouldn;t Philly want to have a reason for it?

[ckchen]

Andrea Bargnani to Philadelphia for Jason Richardson and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. Salary wise its even. But I think Luc fits better with the Knicks then Andrea. Jason is a contract to hopefully swap out.

Philly keeps Andrea until the trade deadline instead of Luc and Jason.

So Philly dumps Embiid's mentor and a guy on insurance for Bargs who is worse than LRMM? Wouldn;t Philly want to have a reason for it?

Agreed. There seems to be zero incentive for Philly to make this trade unless a roster space was somehow that important that they needed to clear it.

[Morris_Shatford]

Philly doesn't do this deal IMO because Philly doesn't gain any benefit from this deal;

As for NY,
Unless the Knicks can find a dynamite deal for their wealth of expiring contracts;
They may be better served riding out the season and seeing what they have and letting their expirings expire.

[Scoot McGroot]

This trade doesn't even get them below the luxury tax.

No, but it cuts $5m off their tax number, which is all repeater multiplied. Instead of being $16.5m over the tax for a bill of about $50m, they would drop to only $11.5m over the tax, for a luxury tax bill of about $31m. It doesn't get them below the tax, but saves the Knicks almost $21m (adding in the $5m of pure salary savings, and subtracting the max payment of $3.1m to the Sixers).

So, almost $20m in pure cash savings. And the Knicks are supposed to get 2nds, too? For Bargs? A guy that has absolutely no future in Philly, and either has to be bought out or blocks playing time for the young guys they want to actually see?

The Knicks don't seem to care about the tax.

Mostly, sure. However, if they could move Bargs for Richardson straight up and save $20m in cash that Dolan could use to buy a new soundstack for his band? I think he'd do it, and would be happy to. Paying in picks to do so? Maybe not. But that's a different argument. Even to a billionaire, $20m is a decent chunk of change, especially when it's being wasted on a player of Bargnani's standard.

No one's arguing to dump Carmelo because of the luxury tax. They've mostly talked about moving Bargs and Amare. Guys that really aren't necessary in any way in NY, but could save them a TON of cash.

[jbk1234]

This trade doesn't even get them below the luxury tax.

No, but it cuts $5m off their tax number, which is all repeater multiplied. Instead of being $16.5m over the tax for a bill of about $50m, they would drop to only $11.5m over the tax, for a luxury tax bill of about $31m. It doesn't get them below the tax, but saves the Knicks almost $21m (adding in the $5m of pure salary savings, and subtracting the max payment of $3.1m to the Sixers).

So, almost $20m in pure cash savings. And the Knicks are supposed to get 2nds, too? For Bargs? A guy that has absolutely no future in Philly, and either has to be bought out or blocks playing time for the young guys they want to actually see?

The Knicks don't seem to care about the tax.

There is value in not falling under the repeater penalty. That's the only reason the Knicks should give up anything in a salary dump. But there is no point in the Knicks giving up something and not getting under the tax. Particularly if the return is an equally worthless player.

[skflives]

There is value in not falling under the repeater penalty. That's the only reason the Knicks should give up anything in a salary dump. But there is no point in the Knicks giving up something and not getting under the tax. Particularly if the return is an equally worthless player.

I 100% agree.

[skflives]

Mostly, sure. However, if they could move Bargs for Richardson straight up and save $20m in cash that Dolan could use to buy a new soundstack for his band? I think he'd do it, and would be happy to. Paying in picks to do so? Maybe not. But that's a different argument.

Yea. I can see that.