New Approach to MIN Trades

[Domejandro]

If Atlanta goes the rebuild route, does a Horford/Teague for Dieng/Rubio + assets/fillers have substance as the base to a deal?

Nope. And I think Teague is an easy top ten guard.

Shrink, people are never going to go with production value due to the promise that fans see in free agency. In reality, solid free agents are simply an easy way to have a player of Brewer's abilities at six million instead of 4.8 million, but fans do not see that nor fully take into account their position to not be able to attain those agents. It is like David Khan and his cap space, cap space can only be worth as much as you can sign with it. 20 million/4 for Darko is what we got. That said, he reeled many people into the promise of what can (or should I say can't) be done with that space.

Incoherent babbling aside, people perceive cap space as a magical tool thqt guarantees you a shot for good free agents, even if it is horribly unlikely.

[Domejandro]

How I quoted my own post will be forever lost on me, sorry for the double post.

[Smitty731]

Incoherent babbling aside, people perceive cap space as a magical tool thqt guarantees you a shot for good free agents, even if it is horribly unlikely.

Cap space has value regardless, but your point is still mostly valid. Minnesota, much like Boston (and several other places) will never be a FA destination. Too many factors work against them. But, you can use Cap space in other ways, besides signing FAs. You can use it to "overpay" a guy through a trade. You can use it to take on contracts to gain assets in terms of young talent or draft picks.

You point is still very valid. So many fan bases get sold that Cap space will fix all. It is a valuable tool to have, but you need to use it correctly. On the flip side, some believe you can't be good without Cap space. The Spurs and Lakers have historically proven this to not be true. Neither team (before LA this offseason) has had any space to speak of in years. I think they've both done just fine for a decade or so.

[Xman]

[quote="sportscrazy"]If Atlanta goes the rebuild route, does a Horford/Teague for Dieng/Rubio + assets/fillers have substance as the base to a deal?[/quote]

Interesting. Rubio has to be tendered at the end of the year which means ATL would have to pay him soon. Dieng is cheap for a long time.

Problem is money. Minny would have to add Barea and Bennett (orKMart or Budinger and another cheaper player) to get the dollars to match.

For Minny, this move would be a try to win now move. Pekovic/Horford/TYoung would handle the inside well. Brewer is a little weak at the 3. Teague/KMart with Wiggins/LaVine is a good backcourt. would be better if they could work in a third team or get ATL to take Budinger so they could also get Korver or another sf. In effect, adding ATL best to Minny to make a solid team.

[shrink]

Regarding ATL, MIN is not going to want to tie up half it's payroll in three big men. It did not give away a first rounder for Thad Young only to push him to the bench. This is yet another reason Dieng is such a great fit for MIN.

Domejandro and Smitty, I believe you are right about cap space. It's funny how on casual fan websites, fans disregard the value on cap space, but on here, the price goes through the roof. MIN is not going to get a bargain by spending it's cap space in free agency because it's not one of the 3-5 markets that free agents value, and where they can get more than market. But here, I think the fans of 30 teams tend to overvalue cap space, versus the desire for REAL GM's to generally want more productive players on the floor, producing for them.

I'd really like to focus on two year deals here. Expirings may be helpful in a three-way trade since they are more valuable to others than MIN, but since this thread always gets off-topic, I wanted to focus on what MIN would receive.

[HartfordWhalers]

Regarding ATL, MIN is not going to want to tie up half it's payroll in three big men. It did not give away a first rounder for Thad Young only to push him to the bench. This is yet another reason Dieng is such a great fit for MIN.

Domejandro and Smitty, I believe you are right about cap space. It's funny how on casual fan websites, fans disregard the value on cap space, but on here, the price goes through the roof. MIN is not going to get a bargain by spending it's cap space in free agency because it's not one of the 3-5 markets that free agents value, and where they can get more than market. But here, I think the fans of 30 teams tend to overvalue cap space, versus the desire for REAL GM's to generally want more productive players on the floor, producing for them.

I'd really like to focus on two year deals here. Expirings may be helpful in a three-way trade since they are more valuable to others than MIN, but since this thread always gets off-topic, I wanted to focus on what MIN would receive.

I think cap space is actually under rated on here. For example, Atlanta dumped Noguierra and took on a hit (Salmons partial guarantee) to clear Louis Williams, who historically is at least as much worth his contract as Brewer... Thornton who should have some (although not that much) production value, took a first, and a prospect etc. As Smitty said, its not about just free agents, but also all the possible uses of it, and having it clearly has a value that a simple formula like in the OP skips.


Back on what you are looking for, 2 year contracts are tough. I think the easy trades for Minnesota are their 2 year contracts for 1 year junk -- the amount of 1 year useless junk is just incredibly higher than the amount of 2 year junk, where there is a small market.

Jr Smith and Shump for Kevin Martin. I like that for both. Jr can be bought out. Knicks fans may scream bloody murder but I like it for them.

If he starts off fat and anywhere but Knicks Felton, then Felton + for Barea.

Budinger for Jerebko is still one I want to force through the cracks and ignore the 2 year request. Smitty's list was pretty much all 1 year deals for a reason.

[sonictecture]

You started this thread out by stating that Minnesota has a problem, in that they have too many wing players and it is in the best interest of the organization moving forward to make a trade.

Is it in the best interest of any other team to acquire any of the players you've made available?

I get it. You're tired of posters trying to give Minnesota players or contracts you don't want, but I believe this is a good representation of the reality Minnesota is in. Other posters/teams don't want the players that are available, so the likelihood of you getting the players or terms you want are very small.

Most look at the Minnesota players being offered and think, those players don't really help us and I am not interested in paying those contracts. If Minnesota has to hold on to those players then perhaps that makes them worse and slows down their young player development or messes with their team chemistry. I'm fine with that.

This could change. Budinger could remain healthy and shoot well enough from 3pt range to get a team interested. A team could suffer multiple injuries and want a fill in, but at this point, no one wants these players without getting more value or sending back more contract money.

[shrink]

Huh? Do you believe trades only happen in the NBA if players have positive value?

If you read the inital post, or the multiple times I've tried to get every second poster back on task, I asked for a list of overpaid, low-production two year deals. There was nothing said about "value or more contract money," in fact, I was specifically looking for ones that were not good.

MIN has players that will produce something, but they don't have the minutes for all of them. Some teams do. Some teams have players with worse contracts than these four guys, that could be the basis for a trade, as I have explained.

[old rem]

You are really talking about three buckets of assets: (1) Brewer and Martin (slightly positive trade value); (2) Budinger (negative trade value unless he stays healthy and shows something); and (3) Barea (negative trade value period).

I think your approaches need to take those values into account.

Brewer probably has value... but is the guy the Wolves may just keep. Martin can score, sucks on D, but the problem...he's 31 yr old, has 3 yr left at about $7 mill per. Basically......he may be worth the $ short time.. NOT the full run of the deal. SOMEONE... may do a deal.

Budinger? Decent player but at the price? Not too healthy? Good luck. Barea is overpaid a bit but a decent player with a expiring deal My hunch? If they get anything for Martin, they bite. They likely keep Brewer and Barrea. Buddinger?...might get dealt later but I doubt they give assets to unload him