Poll: West/11 for Landry/6

[blind prophet]

This is getting to be like a Foxnews poll where they ask "do you trust Hillary Clinton" and 90 percent plus of the voters say "no"

I despise just about every politician, but point made.

Amusing to see perception vs reality.

[basketballwacko2]

He might actually be a marginal negative value right now at 12M contract.

Uh, no. He was clearly still a large positive last year. While his TS% was down, he's still doing most EVERYTHING else at the same level per 36 proportional to number of field goal attempts except for assists. Where he's double most anything he's done his career. DRtg, VORP, WinShare, everything shows that he's still a large net positive to his team. What is showing though, is that he's taking less shots as he ages, and instead, is becoming a passer and facilitator more and more as he ages.

I'm not arguing that West is worth a #6 pick, or rather, trading up from 11 to 6 while also taking on a longer contract on a worse player, but rather, there's really nothing to show that he's a negative value in any way. He's old, but he's widely respected around the league. He's a great locker room presence. And, he's still producing positively on the court.

Ortg 103, Drtg 102, WS/48 0.108, BPM 1.7, VORP 1.8, TS% 0.508. these are barely positive and can only be expected to drop, steady downward trend for the guy over last three years. Makes zero sense for Sac to trade for this guy let alone give up the 6 pick.

Comparison sake lets look at Landry. worse but not by a lot. Ortg 115, Drtg 111, WS/48 0.112, BPM -3.6, VORP -0.5 TS% 0.578

West is done...don't try to play him up as an asset

Landry couldn't carry David West's old jock strap.

[King Baller]

David West should either stay a Pacer or go to a contender that needs a solid Veteran PF.

The Kings need a Stud age 28 or younger for the #6 pick. IMO either draft WTCS or trade for a veteran like Al Horford or Derrick Favors.

[stitches]

David West should either stay a Pacer or go to a contender that needs a solid Veteran PF.

The Kings need a Stud age 28 or younger for the #6 pick. IMO either draft WTCS or trade for a veteran like Al Horford or Derrick Favors.

Favors is 23 and he's not for trade, especially not for #6...

[brackdan70]

Uh, no. He was clearly still a large positive last year. While his TS% was down, he's still doing most EVERYTHING else at the same level per 36 proportional to number of field goal attempts except for assists. Where he's double most anything he's done his career. DRtg, VORP, WinShare, everything shows that he's still a large net positive to his team. What is showing though, is that he's taking less shots as he ages, and instead, is becoming a passer and facilitator more and more as he ages.

I'm not arguing that West is worth a #6 pick, or rather, trading up from 11 to 6 while also taking on a longer contract on a worse player, but rather, there's really nothing to show that he's a negative value in any way. He's old, but he's widely respected around the league. He's a great locker room presence. And, he's still producing positively on the court.

Ortg 103, Drtg 102, WS/48 0.108, BPM 1.7, VORP 1.8, TS% 0.508. these are barely positive and can only be expected to drop, steady downward trend for the guy over last three years. Makes zero sense for Sac to trade for this guy let alone give up the 6 pick.

Comparison sake lets look at Landry. worse but not by a lot. Ortg 115, Drtg 111, WS/48 0.112, BPM -3.6, VORP -0.5 TS% 0.578

West is done...don't try to play him up as an asset

Landry couldn't carry David West's old jock strap.

never heard that one before, funny stuff.

[blind prophet]

I'm curious though where the notion of geezer to rebuilding/development team = getting their lotto pick.

[basketballwacko2]

I'm curious though where the notion of geezer to rebuilding/development team = getting their lotto pick.

The trade makes no sense for either team. I said in an earlier post unless the kings want West to help develop their young bigs and that's a lot to pay dropping 5 spots. That said I don't see a lot of diff between 6 and 11. The Pacers are not looking to trade West and the kings are not looking to get him.

[Kings2013]

David West should either stay a Pacer or go to a contender that needs a solid Veteran PF.

The Kings need a Stud age 28 or younger for the #6 pick. IMO either draft WTCS or trade for a veteran like Al Horford or Derrick Favors.

Favors is 23 and he's not for trade, especially not for #6...

He's not worth more, or I could argue as much, but yes I know he's a part of the Jazz core they are not looking to move

[blind prophet]

I'm curious though where the notion of geezer to rebuilding/development team = getting their lotto pick.

The trade makes no sense for either team. I said in an earlier post unless the kings want West to help develop their young bigs and that's a lot to pay dropping 5 spots. That said I don't see a lot of diff between 6 and 11. The Pacers are not looking to trade West and the kings are not looking to get him.

People have been kind here.

Every GM in the history of basketball moves West and the 11 for the 6.

When you have no shot in hell in winning a championship within a year, if you can grab a lotto pick for a 35 year old by next season, you do, especially when your current GM just said a guy who he would like to draft is a potential 100 million dollar contract.

Look at the poll, if you said should the Pacers make this move if the Kings were willing you'd get the same results that yes they should.

[stitches]

David West should either stay a Pacer or go to a contender that needs a solid Veteran PF.

The Kings need a Stud age 28 or younger for the #6 pick. IMO either draft WTCS or trade for a veteran like Al Horford or Derrick Favors.

Favors is 23 and he's not for trade, especially not for #6...

He's not worth more, or I could argue as much, but yes I know he's a part of the Jazz core they are not looking to move

How come he's not worth it? Favors is what happens when a top 3 pick pans out. Sure, he's not a superstar, but he's a fringe all-star with the potential to be multiple-year all-star in the future. He's an elite defensive PF who can switch on most players and guard them successfully, player with constantly improving and efficient offensive game. He's a 18/10 player(per 36) with great defense. If your #6 becomes anything close to what Favors is now, you'd have to be ecstatic with that pick. Who will be better in this draft than Favors? Seriously? WCS? Okafor? Towns? Towns has the chance, but is far from a sure thing. Okafor will never be a great defender. WCS will never have anything close to Favors' offensive game and is what? 1 year younger than him? To be fair I probably wouldn't trade Favors for anybody in this draft with the exception of Towns and even that is a bit questionable.

Again, note that what you get with Favors is a sure thing. What you get with all those draft picks is potential and most of them will never reach it.

[Walmart]

What about McCallum and Landry + 2015 pick for Gibson and McDermott + the rights back to Sacaramento's 2016 pick and Bulls 2015 pick?

Why for the Bulls: Bulls trade up to draft Winslow or Stanley Johnson. Also get McCallum to add their backcourt.

Why for the Kings: Add a high character player with playoff experience to play alongside and compliment Cousins while also getting a good prospect in McDermott. Also regain the rights back to their 2016 pick.

I doubt Sac would do it. McDermott really can't be called a "good prospect" after his rookie season struggles. As always Gibson is too old to justify sending out the 6th and there's a good chance no matter what the Kings do in the off-season they'll mis the playoffs again and end up conveying 2nd round picks to the Bulls in the long run.

How can a rookie struggle when Tibs didn't play him?

The Kings either have to make the playoffs or Cousins is going to make a public trade request next summer. Guarantee it. They have got to go all in this offseason and unless they think WCS can get them over the hump I think they need to field all trade offers for that number 6 pick.

[lakerhater]

What about McCallum and Landry + 2015 pick for Gibson and McDermott + the rights back to Sacaramento's 2016 pick and Bulls 2015 pick?

Why for the Bulls: Bulls trade up to draft Winslow or Stanley Johnson. Also get McCallum to add their backcourt.

Why for the Kings: Add a high character player with playoff experience to play alongside and compliment Cousins while also getting a good prospect in McDermott. Also regain the rights back to their 2016 pick.

I doubt Sac would do it. McDermott really can't be called a "good prospect" after his rookie season struggles. As always Gibson is too old to justify sending out the 6th and there's a good chance no matter what the Kings do in the off-season they'll mis the playoffs again and end up conveying 2nd round picks to the Bulls in the long run.

How can a rookie struggle when Tibs didn't play him?

The Kings either have to make the playoffs or Cousins is going to make a public trade request next summer. Guarantee it. They have got to go all in this offseason and unless they think WCS can get them over the hump I think they need to field all trade offers for that number 6 pick.

McDermott was supposedly NBA ready which is why the Bulls traded up to get him but he couldn't crack the rotation because he's a poor defender. I'd call that a disappointing rookie campaign where he struggled to make an impact on the team's success.

[Kings2013]

Favors is 23 and he's not for trade, especially not for #6...

He's not worth more, or I could argue as much, but yes I know he's a part of the Jazz core they are not looking to move

How come he's not worth it? Favors is what happens when a top 3 pick pans out. Sure, he's not a superstar, but he's a fringe all-star with the potential to be multiple-year all-star in the future. He's an elite defensive PF who can switch on most players and guard them successfully, player with constantly improving and efficient offensive game. He's a 18/10 player(per 36) with great defense. If your #6 becomes anything close to what Favors is now, you'd have to be ecstatic with that pick. Who will be better in this draft than Favors? Seriously? WCS? Okafor? Towns? Towns has the chance, but is far from a sure thing. Okafor will never be a great defender. WCS will never have anything close to Favors' offensive game and is what? 1 year younger than him? To be fair I probably wouldn't trade Favors for anybody in this draft with the exception of Towns and even that is a bit questionable.

Again, note that what you get with Favors is a sure thing. What you get with all those draft picks is potential and most of them will never reach it.

It's totally subjective, and Favors is a good player you want on your team. The two players we are being associated with most, WCS and Winslow, if top 4 remain steady, I think can be very impactful. But I guess many people fall in love with prospects in their range. We will see

[teerfour+40LG]

long twos are so worthless.

[basketballwacko2]

I'm curious though where the notion of geezer to rebuilding/development team = getting their lotto pick.

The trade makes no sense for either team. I said in an earlier post unless the kings want West to help develop their young bigs and that's a lot to pay dropping 5 spots. That said I don't see a lot of diff between 6 and 11. The Pacers are not looking to trade West and the kings are not looking to get him.

People have been kind here.

Every GM in the history of basketball moves West and the 11 for the 6.

When you have no shot in hell in winning a championship within a year, if you can grab a lotto pick for a 35 year old by next season, you do, especially when your current GM just said a guy who he would like to draft is a potential 100 million dollar contract.

Look at the poll, if you said should the Pacers make this move if the Kings were willing you'd get the same results that yes they should.

This post goes to show what you know about the Indiana Pacers, and I don't give a rats backside what the rest of the posters here say, you can tell that by the way I post. I've been posting here since 2002. I framed my statement in 2 parts, 1 there is little difference between #6 and #11 in this draft and 2nd, swapping David West for Carl Landry is a loser move. Landry is a scrub he'll be 32 before the season starts, his best years are 5 yrs behind him. He would be 3rd string on the Pacers behind Scola and Lavoy Allen. West is a leader and a productive player, furthermore Larry Bird will not waste money on a Carl Landry or trade David West to get him and a marginally better draft pick.

As for WCS saying that Bird told him that he could be a $100 million player, that's irrellevant. Bird may have told the kid that, but that in no way means that Bird wants him or will give him that as a contract. Bird has not said that WCS is the guy he wants, he doesn't tell the rest of the league who he wants 2 months before the draft. It's foolishness to think he would. WCS certainly could earn $100 million in his career with the new TV deal and huge contracts to come he might earn 2x that if he's able to play 10-12 yrs.

Again none of that means that Bird is ready to shell out $100 million or trade the farm to get this guy. All there is in this case if WCS saying that Bird told him that. Which means nothing. Keep your pick and Landry, the kings will end up buying him out. And don't be shocked if the Pacers end up trading down or just using their pick.

[basketballwacko2]

Favors is 23 and he's not for trade, especially not for #6...

He's not worth more, or I could argue as much, but yes I know he's a part of the Jazz core they are not looking to move

How come he's not worth it? Favors is what happens when a top 3 pick pans out. Sure, he's not a superstar, but he's a fringe all-star with the potential to be multiple-year all-star in the future. He's an elite defensive PF who can switch on most players and guard them successfully, player with constantly improving and efficient offensive game. He's a 18/10 player(per 36) with great defense. If your #6 becomes anything close to what Favors is now, you'd have to be ecstatic with that pick. Who will be better in this draft than Favors? Seriously? WCS? Okafor? Towns? Towns has the chance, but is far from a sure thing. Okafor will never be a great defender. WCS will never have anything close to Favors' offensive game and is what? 1 year younger than him? To be fair I probably wouldn't trade Favors for anybody in this draft with the exception of Towns and even that is a bit questionable.

Again, note that what you get with Favors is a sure thing. What you get with all those draft picks is potential and most of them will never reach it.

You have to understand that in the world of RealGm posters draft picks are drastically overvalued. Established players are devalued unless they are on the team the poster likes. So there is a fantasy that the #6 pick is gonna be some great player that will turn the Kings around. That could happen in 3-4 years or it could end up being another Johnny Flynn, Derrick Williams, Ekpe Udoh, Al-Farouq Aminu, Wesley Johnson or Jan Vesley. Some can't miss prospect from Lithuania or the Czech Republic is better than an established 24 yr old player in the NBA with 4 years experience and 300 games to look at. The prefer some cell phone video on Youtube of the guy dunking in an empty gym to real NBA games. I wouldn't draft Mudiay or Porzingis above #12-13.

[basketballwacko2]

How can a rookie struggle when Tibs didn't play him?

The Kings either have to make the playoffs or Cousins is going to make a public trade request next summer. Guarantee it. They have got to go all in this offseason and unless they think WCS can get them over the hump I think they need to field all trade offers for that number 6 pick.

Making the playoffs in the West is tough The Pelicans will be better, OKC is sure to better, the Lakers might load up on Free Agents and be very good. So getting the kings into the playoffs will be tough. Cousins is good and Gay works at SF but ?? at PF remain. Can Gay play PF?? What about point? Collison looked good before getting hurt, will he be the same? I don't even know what a "core muscle injury" means. Will Sauskas and or McElmore develop?

Making the playoffs in the west is tough.

[winter_mute_13]

You have to understand that in the world of RealGm posters draft picks are drastically overvalued. Established players are devalued unless they are on the team the poster likes. So there is a fantasy that the #6 pick is gonna be some great player that will turn the Kings around. That could happen in 3-4 years or it could end up being another Johnny Flynn, Derrick Williams, Ekpe Udoh, Al-Farouq Aminu, Wesley Johnson or Jan Vesley. Some can't miss prospect from Lithuania or the Czech Republic is better than an established 24 yr old player in the NBA with 4 years experience and 300 games to look at. The prefer some cell phone video on Youtube of the guy dunking in an empty gym to real NBA games. I wouldn't draft Mudiay or Porzingis above #12-13.

Yes! Preach it brother!

I don't think SAC would be interested in trading for West, but that paragraph above is so true. I'd easily take Favors over #6.

[Scoot McGroot]

He might actually be a marginal negative value right now at 12M contract.

Uh, no. He was clearly still a large positive last year. While his TS% was down, he's still doing most EVERYTHING else at the same level per 36 proportional to number of field goal attempts except for assists. Where he's double most anything he's done his career. DRtg, VORP, WinShare, everything shows that he's still a large net positive to his team. What is showing though, is that he's taking less shots as he ages, and instead, is becoming a passer and facilitator more and more as he ages.

I'm not arguing that West is worth a #6 pick, or rather, trading up from 11 to 6 while also taking on a longer contract on a worse player, but rather, there's really nothing to show that he's a negative value in any way. He's old, but he's widely respected around the league. He's a great locker room presence. And, he's still producing positively on the court.

Ortg 103, Drtg 102, WS/48 0.108, BPM 1.7, VORP 1.8, TS% 0.508. these are barely positive and can only be expected to drop, steady downward trend for the guy over last three years. Makes zero sense for Sac to trade for this guy let alone give up the 6 pick.

Comparison sake lets look at Landry. worse but not by a lot. Ortg 115, Drtg 111, WS/48 0.112, BPM -3.6, VORP -0.5 TS% 0.578

West is done...don't try to play him up as an asset

Uh, those Landry numbers are vastly worse.

But West's numbers that are so awful? Those are on par with his 2 All-Star seasons in 07-08 and 08-09. They also match perfectly with a team that lost a lot of wins due to Paul George being gone. If it's worth writing him off now with those stats, then he should have been written off at age 26, immediately before he made back to back all-star games, too.

It absolutely makes sense for Sacramento to trade for West, especially if it's Landry they're giving up. If you want to argue if it's worth trading down from 6 to 11 (no, they're not giving up the 6, they're moving down 5 spots), that's completely different. But to act as if David West is a negative that brings his team down and is only marginally, or minutely, positive compared to Landry is simply incorrect. To argue that improvement isn't worth moving from 6 to 11 makes sense to me. That's not crazy. Saying West is a "negative value" right now though, is just wrong.

[pacers33granger]

I'm a huge David West fan...so I suspect the one who says "no" is David West. He won't want to go to a lottery team at this point in his career, and although he doesn't have an official no-trade clause, I can't exactly see Indy saying "tough beans, you go where we tell you" at this point either.

If Indy could get a top 6 pick for West, I would imagine they would give him "it's a business" line.

As for the trade, I hate it for SAC. David West isn't a long term piece in SAC. Might even request a buyout.

Doing that would kind of be a death sentence to us signing any major free agents ever again without seriously overpaying. West was the best free agent we signed in basically forever and is generally well regarded around the league. It would look pretty bad if we sent him to a team that likely won't be making the playoffs against his wishes.

That said, I agree it's not enough for Sacramento unless they know the guy they want will be there at 11 anyways.