Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers?

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Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#1 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:17 pm

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/238897/Knicks-Tried-To-Negotiate-With-Maurice-Ndour-After-His-Agreement-With-Mavs

I mean this guy is really insignificant, but I guess that unwritten rule hasn't just been erased by the Jordan mess, its been obliterated.

Will be really interesting to see just how ugly things might get if the NBA doesn't change the moratorium. The potential is ther for doing so much damage to your competitors if guys aren't going to respect these verbal agreements any longer.

Or maybe just everyone hates Dallas?
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#2 » by bondom34 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:19 pm

To be fair:

Dallas offered the undrafted Ohio University forward a fully guaranteed deal for more than the $600,000 rookie free-agent minimum, with a second year partially guaranteed.

The Knicks offered Ndour less than a $200,000 guarantee.


The Knicks even half assed it. :lol:
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#3 » by mpharris36 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:29 pm

this was well after the moratorium. If Dallas didn't want N'dour negotiating with other teams they should have had him sign a contract right then and there.

The issue with the Jordan thing was during the moratorium he was holding up the mavericks funds of doing other things and signing other players. N'dour was doing no such thing. Like I said above, Dallas should of inked him to the deal right then and there if they didn't want someone matching that kind of deal.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#4 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:38 pm

mpharris36 wrote:this was well after the moratorium. If Dallas didn't want N'dour negotiating with other teams they should have had him sign a contract right then and there.




yeah sorry. I'm really more interested in this idea of teams no longer respecting verbal agreements the way they once did. Technically you are right of course, tho in the past you knew the player and other teams would respect the agreement and thus you could stack deals in a way to make best use of your space.

I'm not particularly concerned about the Knicks or Clippers specifically or Ndour really at all.

I'm probably somewhat over-reacting to it because it involves the little Mavs, but I do think this is potentially opening a can of worms that teams are going to wish they hadn't. Or I could be Chicken Little. I freely admit that.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#5 » by mpharris36 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:43 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:this was well after the moratorium. If Dallas didn't want N'dour negotiating with other teams they should have had him sign a contract right then and there.




yeah sorry. I'm really more interested in this idea of teams no longer respecting verbal agreements the way they once did. Technically you are right of course, tho in the past you knew the player and other teams would respect the agreement and thus you could stack deals in a way to make best use of your space.

I'm not particularly concerned about the Knicks or Clippers specifically or Ndour really at all.

I'm probably somewhat over-reacting to it because it involves the little Mavs, but I do think this is potentially opening a can of worms that teams are going to wish they hadn't. Or I could be Chicken Little. I freely admit that.


I absolutely agree that something has to happen with that 1 week moratorium. Holding up a teams $$$ could be disastrous to an off season as we have seen what happened to your mavs.

I think both situations are totally separate though, we aren't sure how the N'dour negotiations worked but at the time he could have inked a deal right than and there. He might have verbally agreed and said as long as the knicks don't match that offer (which it was reported that much guaranteed $$$ was just too much for there liking he would sign with the mavs.

I think the verbal agreements are different in my opinion. A verbal post moratorium is less valuable than pre moratorium because you can physically sign contracts and if you want to make sure the player stays just have him sign right that and there if he verbally committs.

But to your point the moratorium should and I think will be tweaked.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#6 » by Mr. E » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:50 pm

The simple solution is to not allow teams and players to begin negotiations until the owners & players association have had a chance to review all of the financials from the previous season.

It is odd that this happened to Dallas again. Maybe it does happen more than we realized, but it's only now getting some coverage due to the Jordan fiasco.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#7 » by Laimbeer » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:03 pm

The Jordan incident was the only one of any note that I recall. To me the guy just had a change of heart and there was no malice aforethought. I don't think we've got an epidemic on our hands. If it's any consolation, teams will have trouble trusting the guy if he goes through the process again and it could limit his options.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#8 » by nickhx2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:37 pm

but if the moratorium is tweaked where will we get all our high drama? :(

seriously though, as long as contracts require a signature to be valid, this will always happen and is going to keep happening. the degree of drama will vary but it's silly to think that teams are gonna keep their hands to themselves all the time. nba teams (in general) are operating win now businesses and the ones that want to win will operate in any grey area afforded to them if need be. and clearly, verbal agreements are grey areas.

basically what i'm trying to say is: UNTIL THE GUY IS SIGNED

he is not signed to a team. to my team, to your team, or any other team. end of story.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#9 » by Birdie » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:54 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Chuck Texas wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:this was well after the moratorium. If Dallas didn't want N'dour negotiating with other teams they should have had him sign a contract right then and there.




yeah sorry. I'm really more interested in this idea of teams no longer respecting verbal agreements the way they once did. Technically you are right of course, tho in the past you knew the player and other teams would respect the agreement and thus you could stack deals in a way to make best use of your space.

I'm not particularly concerned about the Knicks or Clippers specifically or Ndour really at all.

I'm probably somewhat over-reacting to it because it involves the little Mavs, but I do think this is potentially opening a can of worms that teams are going to wish they hadn't. Or I could be Chicken Little. I freely admit that.


I absolutely agree that something has to happen with that 1 week moratorium. Holding up a teams $$$ could be disastrous to an off season as we have seen what happened to your mavs.

I think both situations are totally separate though, we aren't sure how the N'dour negotiations worked but at the time he could have inked a deal right than and there. He might have verbally agreed and said as long as the knicks don't match that offer (which it was reported that much guaranteed $$$ was just too much for there liking he would sign with the mavs.

I think the verbal agreements are different in my opinion. A verbal post moratorium is less valuable than pre moratorium because you can physically sign contracts and if you want to make sure the player stays just have him sign right that and there if he verbally committs.

But to your point the moratorium should and I think will be tweaked.


I think the moratorium should stay as it is but with this minor tweak. If a player decides to verbally commit, then they (player/team) should be given the option to sign a letter of intent which still gives the player the option to back out but the rejected team gets compensated by the team who poached the player or changed his mind. A 1st rd unprotected pick? A 10% fee of the value of the contract he was to sign (i.e. DJ Mavs 4/80mil, so Clips pay DAL 8mil which still figures into Clips salary cap for that season, so, essentially 8mil in dead money on their cap sheet)

Of course, teams could still go about their business and take the verbal agreement and roll the dice but at least by signing a LOI, it protects both player/team in certain circumstances. It would deincentivize poaching while under a LOI agreement and wishy washy players who can't make a decision. Yea, under a LOI, if DJ truly felt he made the wrong decision, at least in my example, the Mavs get some kind of restitution for getting dicked over and Clips having to bear the brunt of DJ's actions. You need to make the penalties such where teams/players will have to make those hard choices of whether it'd be worth it to them. Does LAC want to give up a 1st rd pick or pay $8mil/carry that cap charge when it could mean paying even more luxury tax dollars AND pay DJ just because he changed his mind in order to retain him or be stolen by another team? I think that would be an interesting decision to have to make. Thoughts?

In the end, using the Mavs as the example, yea, their FA agents plans are thrown out of whack because all the players they might've targeted had they known earlier DJ wasn't coming would be off the board but at least they'd get something while the Clips got somewhat penalized at their expense.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#10 » by DocRI » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:13 pm

I'm sorry, but this isn't about the NBA; it's about business in general. Take it from a guy who has made the mistake of living up to his end of a "handshake deal" only to have the other party re-neg and leave him hanging — a verbal agreement is worth the paper it's written upon.

But beyond that, HOW did this happen to the Mavs again??? If ANY team in the league should have learned the above lesson from the DeAndre Saga, isn't it Dallas? We're well outside the moratorium, so why did they even leave this window open yet again? Why on earth did they make another verbal agreement instead of just getting his signature on a contract? It literally boggles my mind!
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#11 » by Rockazoids » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:20 pm

Has a team every back out of a verbally agreed on a player?
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#12 » by inquisitive » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:09 pm

move the free agency date to July 15th or end of July.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#13 » by nickhx2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:34 pm

Rockazoids wrote:Has a team every back out of a verbally agreed on a player?


yes. in jj redick's interview with zach lowe after the deandre jordan saga, redick said donald sterling did it to him and that it's a common occurrence (iirc). he even intimated it might have been due to his being white.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#14 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:46 pm

nickhx2 wrote:
Rockazoids wrote:Has a team every back out of a verbally agreed on a player?


yes. in jj redick's interview with zach lowe after the deandre jordan saga, redick said donald sterling did it to him and that it's a common occurrence (iirc). he even intimated it might have been due to his being white.



I'm confused. JJ signed with the Clippers as a free agent.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#15 » by nickhx2 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:11 am

it was a S/T and DTS initially nixed the deal, if i got the details all right
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#16 » by Rockazoids » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:51 am

To me this seem no more as bad as those front loaded contracts for Lin, Fields, & Asik. I think 2 out of the 3
wish they didn't have the deal in the end. For the most part it should right itself. LAC might wish they didn't
have the deal in the end.
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#17 » by Knosh » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:36 am

Chuck Texas wrote:
nickhx2 wrote:
Rockazoids wrote:Has a team every back out of a verbally agreed on a player?


yes. in jj redick's interview with zach lowe after the deandre jordan saga, redick said donald sterling did it to him and that it's a common occurrence (iirc). he even intimated it might have been due to his being white.



I'm confused. JJ signed with the Clippers as a free agent.


Iirc Lowe asked him if DJ owed the Mavs a call. Redick said no and tried to compare it to two examples from his free agency two years ago.

He said for him it was down to Wolves or Clippers. Initially it looked like Wolves, but they still had to work out contract details. He then decided to go with the Clippers and didn't give Flip Saunders a call. So basically like Jordan situation minus the whole verbal commitment thing.

Then, according to Redick, Sterling didn't want to do the S&T for him. Sterling didn't give Redick a call and he actually didn't veto the trade, so he didn't have a problem with it after all. So basically like the Jordan situation, with a verbal commitment, minus one party going back on their word.

So basically just talking BS to try and justify Jordan's behavior, but I guess it worked because Reddick to Clippers is now an example for a team backing out of a verbal commitment. :roll:
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#18 » by nickhx2 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:45 am

Knosh wrote:
Chuck Texas wrote:
nickhx2 wrote:
yes. in jj redick's interview with zach lowe after the deandre jordan saga, redick said donald sterling did it to him and that it's a common occurrence (iirc). he even intimated it might have been due to his being white.



I'm confused. JJ signed with the Clippers as a free agent.


Iirc Lowe asked him if DJ owed the Mavs a call. Redick said no and tried to compare it to two examples from his free agency two years ago.

He said for him it was down to Wolves or Clippers. Initially it looked like Wolves, but they still had to work out contract details. He then decided to go with the Clippers and didn't give Flip Saunders a call. So basically like Jordan situation minus the whole verbal commitment thing.

Then, according to Redick, Sterling didn't want to do the S&T for him. Sterling didn't give Redick a call and he actually didn't veto the trade, so he didn't have a problem with it after all. So basically like the Jordan situation, with a verbal commitment, minus one party going back on their word.

So basically just talking BS to try and justify Jordan's behavior, but I guess it worked because Reddick to Clippers is now an example for a team backing out of a verbal commitment. :roll:




http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-lowe-post-podcast-j-j-redick-on-the-deandre-jordan-saga-emoji-free-agency-and-more/

—That was when Minnesota looked like they were going to be good and you were going to be like a key piece on a growing team. How things have changed.

Yeah. I essentially committed to Flip. There were still some things to be worked out, the trade kicker, and, you know, Doc calls me and says, “Hey, if we get to this salary, will you come?” And I was like, “Yeah, if you get there.” And when they did, you know, my agent called Flip. [It] was not on me to call Flip. My agent called Flip. Two days later, when Donald Sterling decided he didn’t want to do the sign-and-trade with me, because he thought I was a bench player or because I was white — I’ve heard both stories — I didn’t get a call from Donald Sterling. [That was] the agent’s job. So I’m not really sure why Dan Fegan wasn’t the one calling Cuban. I don’t know. I can’t speak for Dan Fegan, but I’m confused by that whole relationship.



he says he "essentially committed to flip." why does that not qualify as a verbal commitment?
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Re: Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#19 » by nba2k16 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:24 am

Chuck Texas wrote:http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/238897/Knicks-Tried-To-Negotiate-With-Maurice-Ndour-After-His-Agreement-With-Mavs

I mean this guy is really insignificant, but I guess that unwritten rule hasn't just been erased by the Jordan mess, its been obliterated.

Will be really interesting to see just how ugly things might get if the NBA doesn't change the moratorium. The potential is ther for doing so much damage to your competitors if guys aren't going to respect these verbal agreements any longer.

Or maybe just everyone hates Dallas?



I honestly don't think this has to do with the moratorium.

I think this was a one off situation. And before you say DJ spurned the Mavs, I think his agent sort of created a bias image in DJ's mind to sign with the Mavericks. Not saying that was the wrong team to go with, just saying I think DJ eventually saw that the Cuban/agent friendship might be getting in the way and realized he wanted back with the Clippers. Maybe the Clippers were in his heart the whole time? I don't know

Kind of hilarious that this happened again but I think they are pretty separate, one-off scenarios

That being said I hope Cuban doesn't complain about this
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Nobody respects the Mavs? Knicks pull a Clippers? 

Post#20 » by ChuckDurn » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:55 am

Some interesting stuff with the Mavericks and free agency this offseason... I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that they had a verbal agreement with Richard Jefferson as well, and then seemingly by mutual agreement they let him walk away and take a deal with Cleveland.

But what we saw with DJ illustrates that the moratorium really needs to be eliminated, because it gives the opportunity for conspiring between players and teams in ways to hurt the competition. For example - let's say that Durant unofficially decides to go back to OKC in summer 2016 - but he and OKC realize they'd benefit by weakening the Warriors in the future. I haven't looked at the exact figures, but assume that the Warriors won't be able to directly sign him without dropping salary. So, not acting in good faith, Durant goes to the Warriors and verbally agrees to go to the Warriors - but for it to work, the Warriors need to trade Thompson and Livingston. So they do so - and then Durant reneges (as planned) and goes back to OKC. In the case of Jordan and the Mavs, Dallas lost an opportunity to get other assets - however, there's nothing that prevents a teams from trading hard assets away in order to create room, and then getting screwed by a player (potentially acting in concert with another team) who reneges on their agreement.


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