Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

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Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

Poll ended at Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Yes
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46%
No
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39%
I'm somewhere in the middle
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15%
 
Total votes: 95

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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#361 » by winter_mute_13 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:52 pm

BullyKing wrote:Thank you for implying that people who support Hinkie don't live in the real world.

Nevertheless, the honest answer to your question is depends on circumstance. If we are still 2-3 worst in the league because of a Len Bias situation, ok, maybe that explains it. But outside of that, no, almost everyone would no longer support his plan.


Sorry, I shouldn't make it personal. Funny story, I used to think Hinkie had something, but the more I thought about it the more I realized the flaws in the plan. Maybe that's why I feel so vehement about it.

Anyway, it's good to know that Philly fans do have concrete expectations.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#362 » by BullyKing » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:57 pm

winter_mute_13 wrote:
BullyKing wrote:Thank you for implying that people who support Hinkie don't live in the real world.

Nevertheless, the honest answer to your question is depends on circumstance. If we are still 2-3 worst in the league because of a Len Bias situation, ok, maybe that explains it. But outside of that, no, almost everyone would no longer support his plan.


Sorry, I shouldn't make it personal. Funny story, I used to think Hinkie had something, but the more I thought about it the more I realized the flaws in the plan. Maybe that's why I feel so vehement about it.

Anyway, it's good to know that Philly fans do have concrete expectations.


No problem, honestly I'm just tired of the hyperbole on BOTH sides of this. Those who think Hinkie's plan is guaranteed to work and those who think this is just some ponzi scheme. I support the plan mostly because I find it a fascinating experiment and I didn't see any other course more likely to succeed - that's all.
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the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#363 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:16 pm

Did we win?
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#364 » by bondom34 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:23 pm

BullyKing wrote:
winter_mute_13 wrote:
LApwnd wrote:is he even under any sort of time frame at all to get this right? I mean if 2-3 years from now Phi is still the worse of the worse but with maybe 1-2 solid players on the roster, does that give him even more time?


Depends on who you ask!

Hinkie defenders will tell you it's all part of the process. And it's even true - the process doesn't have a timeline. It's an open-ended goal "until we get a superstar" that can be interpreted in many ways. That's the sheer genius of it!

In the real world of course, he'll be fired, unless if he has the owner in some kind of hypnotic hold. I don't know enough about Sixers ownership to say, other than that they seem pretty biddable so far.


Thank you for implying that people who support Hinkie don't live in the real world.

Nevertheless, the honest answer to your question is depends on circumstance. If we are still 2-3 worst in the league because of a Len Bias situation, ok, maybe that explains it. But outside of that, no, almost everyone would no longer support his plan.

Also, thanks for this explanation. I figured this was about it, but am sort of torn on what he's doing. I don't have a great issue with it but think there are a few things that could/should have been different. Glad to see there's some timeline.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#365 » by BullyKing » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:35 pm

bondom34 wrote:
BullyKing wrote:
winter_mute_13 wrote:
Depends on who you ask!

Hinkie defenders will tell you it's all part of the process. And it's even true - the process doesn't have a timeline. It's an open-ended goal "until we get a superstar" that can be interpreted in many ways. That's the sheer genius of it!

In the real world of course, he'll be fired, unless if he has the owner in some kind of hypnotic hold. I don't know enough about Sixers ownership to say, other than that they seem pretty biddable so far.


Thank you for implying that people who support Hinkie don't live in the real world.

Nevertheless, the honest answer to your question is depends on circumstance. If we are still 2-3 worst in the league because of a Len Bias situation, ok, maybe that explains it. But outside of that, no, almost everyone would no longer support his plan.

Also, thanks for this explanation. I figured this was about it, but am sort of torn on what he's doing. I don't have a great issue with it but think there are a few things that could/should have been different. Glad to see there's some timeline.


I think most of us, including Hinkie himself, would admit that we're behind where we expected to be at this point. Most of that is due to a number of dice rolls coming up snake eyes so far (Embiid re-injury, none of the picks conveying last year, never getting lucky in the lottery).

But I do think this is the year where people expect it to start coming today. To give an example, if our pick comes down to another PF/C vs. a wing player, the PF/C has to be so clearly and decisively better to justify the pick. Anything close and people will want the wing player so that some semblance of a starting unit comes into focus.
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the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#366 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:01 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:Did we win?



everyone who read this thread lost.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#367 » by NBD23 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:25 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:Did we win?



everyone who read this thread lost.



I wish I could like this a billion times with my best :noway:
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#368 » by Blkbrd671 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:56 pm

Knosh wrote:
Drummond being voted #16 in trade value on this board in early 2013: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1227259


:lol: :lol:

Legit question, DID YOU EVEN READ IT!?

I counted more than 10 votes for Jrue Holiday and most posters said exactly what i said. DRE is all potential and very little production. Posters here think they can look at stats and mpg to tell a story. However take it from a person who has watched every piston game over the past 5 years. Dre at this point in his career was more talk of putting in work than actually working.

Its also entertaing that everyones taking this stance now that Dre's production is catching up to his potential.




Consensus opinion on this board pretty clearly was that Drummond was extremly valuable from the get go.


Anthony Bennet is a bust but still had trade value based on his potential. Danny Green made a living off potential before finding a roll with SAS. While this board most certainly wanted Dre on their team, it doesn't mean they didn't say he was a bust during Trade discussions. Your perception is that trade value and bust go hand and hand, well they don't. A 7ft raw center that didn't live up to his potential is a bust, but bet your pocket tjat teams would take a shot at him.

Furthermore i saw more votes for Jrue holiday than Dre in each of those threads from Various team posters, and most Dre votes where piston posters.


If everyone wants to continue to act like Jrue Holiday wasn't a allstar at that point in time THAT NETTED 2 1ST ROUND PICKS, that Hinkie's first round pick isn't valuable ,that Brandon Jennings was a great pg, that kcp was a sure starter, that Josh smith contract wasn't worst in the league, that Greg monroe fit with Dre, and that Dre rid himself of all the poor stigma's. Go right on ahead, the film don't lie.

As i said earlier, i don't have a problem with Hinkie's plan, i have a problem with the length of time he plans on taking. He whiffed in his first draft w MCW , by evidence of him trading the pick. He whiffed in his 2nd draft because ignoring medical reports on Embiid, AND traded Elfred Payton who is by all means looks to be a franchise point. He keeps saying trust the process, what i am saying is, stop using "the process" as a excuse for his mistakes, yes Philly has a ton of assets, but Philly also could have had franchise players that they are looking for if the GM just made the right picks.

Fortunately for Sixers, Okafor fell to them and they were smart enough to pull the trigger(which is undervalued) and finally have that franchise piece. I don't trust hinkie to make the right pick if he's out of the top 5, i trust that if he makes the wrong pick he'll turn into assets, but at what point does his ability to make the right pick come into question. Per article, those questions are already being asked.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#369 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:08 am

Let's please keep the focus on the Sixers and the Hinkie plan itt please. Side discussions over which player was more valuable or unfairly labeled really aren't particularly relevant.

Oh and the consensus was absolutely never that Jennings was a great PG in Detroit. Nor that KCP was a lock to be a good starter, that the Josh Smith contract wasn't a huge mistake, or that the Monroe/Drummond pairing were ideal. Just that's absurd to even insinuate. I get you want to prop up the Pistons but just making stuff up to sell your narrative isn't fooling anyone nor particularly worthwhile and absolutely is derailing a thread that was already struggling to stay on the rails.

If you want to create your own thread talking about the job SVG has done re-making the Pistons, by all means go for it. I think it would make an interesting study. But please save us all the drama and the false perceptions and stick to the facts. It makes for much more interesting discussion.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#370 » by HartfordWhalers » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:15 am

Hinkie's never said trust the process as far as I know. That came from the fan base.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#371 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:21 am

HartfordWhalers wrote:Hinkie's never said trust the process as far as I know. That came from the fan base.



Jason Garrett is really big on "trust the process". Guess what I think he can do with his precious process right now?


But your point is an important one. We need to be careful not to attribute other's ideas on Hinkie's methodology onto Hinkie. It leads to a lot of arguments with no basis in reality.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#372 » by Curmudgeon » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:43 am

Here's my proposal. Take the money from the new TV contracts and divide it up among the 30 teams. To simplify the discussion, let's say it comes out to $20.5M per team.

That sum gets prorated based on wins and losses. A 41-win team gets 20.5M, or 500K per win. A 60-win team gets 30 million; a 20 win team gets 10 million, and so on.

Shouldn't teams that enhance the quality of the NBA product (and which appear on television more than other teams) make more TV money? Conversely, shouldn't tanking teams that detract from the quality of the product make less TV money?

It will never happen, of course, because it's too fair.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#373 » by BullyKing » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:50 am

Curmudgeon wrote:Here's my proposal. Take the money from the new TV contracts and divide it up among the 30 teams. To simplify the discussion, let's say it comes out to $20.5M per team.

That sum gets prorated based on wins and losses. A 41-win team gets 20.5M, or 500K per win. A 60-win team gets 30 million; a 20 win team gets 10 million, and so on.

Shouldn't teams that enhance the quality of the NBA product (and which appear on television more than other teams) make more TV money? Conversely, shouldn't tanking teams that detract from the quality of the product make less TV money?

It will never happen, of course, because it's too fair.


The problem is that appearing on TV is not necessarily indicative of team quality. I seem to recall suffering through a Christmas Day Knicks-Lakers tankapalooza last year. It ignores the built-in advantage that big market teams have both in being selected for national games regardless of record and their ability to attract free agents to always be competitive. Under your system, no one would (or could financially afford) to rebuild and would just sign as many free agents as possible to maximize wins in the short term. That'd be fine except there is a clear built-in advantage for teams in big markets and/or located in states with no income tax.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#374 » by bondom34 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:10 am

Curmudgeon wrote:Here's my proposal. Take the money from the new TV contracts and divide it up among the 30 teams. To simplify the discussion, let's say it comes out to $20.5M per team.

That sum gets prorated based on wins and losses. A 41-win team gets 20.5M, or 500K per win. A 60-win team gets 30 million; a 20 win team gets 10 million, and so on.

Shouldn't teams that enhance the quality of the NBA product (and which appear on television more than other teams) make more TV money? Conversely, shouldn't tanking teams that detract from the quality of the product make less TV money?

It will never happen, of course, because it's too fair.

It is? I'll use OKC as an example. They've been a 60 win team, enough to bring in 20 mil most years. Well, last year they were hurt all season, didn't tank, were just hurt. So they lost 7.5 mil because, well they already had problems unrelated to the terrible evil tankers.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#375 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:17 am

Curmudgeon wrote:Here's my proposal. Take the money from the new TV contracts and divide it up among the 30 teams. To simplify the discussion, let's say it comes out to $20.5M per team.

That sum gets prorated based on wins and losses. A 41-win team gets 20.5M, or 500K per win. A 60-win team gets 30 million; a 20 win team gets 10 million, and so on.

Shouldn't teams that enhance the quality of the NBA product (and which appear on television more than other teams) make more TV money? Conversely, shouldn't tanking teams that detract from the quality of the product make less TV money?

It will never happen, of course, because it's too fair.


The networks aren't paying money for quality of product. They are paying money for number of eyeballs. So big markets and teams with superstars regardless of record are what's driving those rights fees. I mean the Spurs would love it as they win all the time, are in a small market, and for non-purists aren't a big draw. So they would just pocket extra money generated by other teams and their edge over everyone else would just grow.

Equitable revenue sharing is very important to the health of a sports league. The NFL system that ensures a profit to every single team regardless of how many tickets they can sell or endorsements they can land is a huge part of why its the dominant sports league. Baseball and hockey by contrast have really struggled and only recently has hockey started to figure it out.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#376 » by Blkbrd671 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:50 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Let's please keep the focus on the Sixers and the Hinkie plan itt please. Side discussions over which player was more valuable or unfairly labeled really aren't particularly relevant.

Oh and the consensus was absolutely never that Jennings was a great PG in Detroit. Nor that KCP was a lock to be a good starter, that the Josh Smith contract wasn't a huge mistake, or that the Monroe/Drummond pairing were ideal. Just that's absurd to even insinuate. I get you want to prop up the Pistons but just making stuff up to sell your narrative isn't fooling anyone nor particularly worthwhile and absolutely is derailing a thread that was already struggling to stay on the rails.


Thats exactly my point , yet posters are referring to Detroits position when SVG took it as Daisy's and Gardens. When it wasn't.


If you want to create your own thread talking about the job SVG has done re-making the Pistons, by all means go for it. I think it would make an interesting study. But please save us all the drama and the false perceptions and stick to the facts. It makes for much more interesting discussion.


I have no problem keeping this thread on topic. If you re-read the thread a Moderator was actually the one that took on a tangent and i am just responding to those post. Your guys are the one the let it continue.


As i stated, i don't question hinkie's strategy but merely the timeline. And based on OP, its warranted.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#377 » by Curmudgeon » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:04 am

As long as they continue to lose 60+ games a year, Philly fans (and ownership) can continue to hope. But that can't last forever. Maybe it could in Clipper land because the city had another team, but not in Philly.

At some point--next year, the year after, whenever-- the Sixers will have to say "Ok, we have a bunch of top five picks, the Euros we've stashed are coming over. everyone is healthy, now it's time to win." If that reconstituted team gets mired in 45-win never never land then Hinkie will have failed abysmally.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#378 » by spearsy23 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:27 am

Blkbrd671 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Let's please keep the focus on the Sixers and the Hinkie plan itt please. Side discussions over which player was more valuable or unfairly labeled really aren't particularly relevant.

Oh and the consensus was absolutely never that Jennings was a great PG in Detroit. Nor that KCP was a lock to be a good starter, that the Josh Smith contract wasn't a huge mistake, or that the Monroe/Drummond pairing were ideal. Just that's absurd to even insinuate. I get you want to prop up the Pistons but just making stuff up to sell your narrative isn't fooling anyone nor particularly worthwhile and absolutely is derailing a thread that was already struggling to stay on the rails.


Thats exactly my point , yet posters are referring to Detroits position when SVG took it as Daisy's and Gardens. When it wasn't.

Saying it was better than what Hinkie inherited is not the same as saying it was good, and trying to pretend that every asset SVG inherited was worse than reality has proven is dishonest.

That said, I think a Pistons vs Sixers discussion follows the narrative of the thread pretty well. The whole question is rather or not we agree with Hinkie's plan, isn't discussing it vs SVG's pretty much discussing the differences in philosophy? The only problem is that neither team is actually good, so there isn't any real conclusion to be drawn by Detroit being less crappy a year earlier. Especially when they had a better foundation.
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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#379 » by bondom34 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:06 am

Curmudgeon wrote:As long as they continue to lose 60+ games a year, Philly fans (and ownership) can continue to hope. But that can't last forever. Maybe it could in Clipper land because the city had another team, but not in Philly.

At some point--next year, the year after, whenever-- the Sixers will have to say "Ok, we have a bunch of top five picks, the Euros we've stashed are coming over. everyone is healthy, now it's time to win." If that reconstituted team gets mired in 45-win never never land then Hinkie will have failed abysmally.

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Re: Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers? 

Post#380 » by Morris_Shatford » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:53 pm

Its a little early to tell;
The Sixers have something like 8 (?) 1sts or pick swaps or something and 10 (?) 2nd round picks owned to them over the next five drafts, a ton of space, and some solid young players.

Till we see what Hinkie Plans to do with the Picks and the Cash hard for me to hate on or love the plan.
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