Offers for Ross and Joseph?

[Skeezo]

If Masai can get a 1st Rd and 2nd Rd pick for a G.Vasquez salary dump, I surely know he can get that or more for C.Joseph alone yet alone adding in T.Ross... I almost can't wait for Masai to make a move in the offseason... With the bias against Raptor players on this trade board, I know that every deal wIll look like the Raptors fleeced the other team (even though they really didn't, our players are just valued higher by actual GMs)

Using what was universally seen at the time as a horrible trade for the Bucks as your expectation in every Raptors trade is probably unreasonable.

As for your accusations of bias--get in line--almost every fanbase has posters here claiming the same thing. Are they all right too or just you?

How about the 200 low ball offers for Paul George?

Yeah that's always the problem with trading a superstar... Unfortunately, you are always the one giving up the best player... Rarely do you see superstar for superstar trades, that's not the way it works...

Now I am not denying the age/superiority differences of your best player (George) and the Raptors best player (Lowry) there is a significant difference... However, your best player gets offers like

LaVine, Muhammed, #5, #10, + 2 more additional first rounders
or
#2 pick, Randle, Nance Jr, + future first rounder

& these are the offers you feel slighted with...

Lowry gets offers like

Olynyk, Covington and a mere slide up of 6 draft slots (#9 to #3) and people think that's too much for the Raps...

[lordjeff05]

Would Toronto accept a pick swap with the Pels in return for both of them?

[Streakers33]

Kinda like offers that could come from minny.
#5 & Payne for Joseph and #9

[dalton749]

Would Toronto accept a pick swap with the Pels in return for both of them?

Depending who is left on the board that could be a really solid move for both teams. If Toronto gets Murray they go into next year with Murray, Powell as the 1, 2 off the bench which is a good fit and probably not much if any drop off, with better long term potential. New Orleans gets 2 long term rotation peices and can still draft a solid player.

[HartfordWhalers]

Lowry gets offers like

Olynyk, Covington and a mere slide up of 6 draft slots (#9 to #3) and people think that's too much for the Raps...

That seems a lot different than a very similar thread that I saw, I'm wondering if it was the same thread just remembered wrong?

This is how.

Lowry to Philly for Okafor, Covington and the LAL pick

Okafor and a future pick/bruno to Boston for #3 and Olynik

The offer LAL a sign and trade for Demar and their pick back for clarkson

So, Toronto was trying to get:
#3, Olynyk, Covington and the LAL top 3 only protected pick and not giving up #9 although possibly including Bruno.

Which is more than I would have Lowry worth, made worse by the fact that sending him to Philly on an expiring contract just isn't a place that is going to value Lowry more than Okafor, least of all piling in an expected mid lotto pick and a quality cheap rotation player.

[Skeezo]

Lowry gets offers like

Olynyk, Covington and a mere slide up of 6 draft slots (#9 to #3) and people think that's too much for the Raps...

That seems a lot different than a very similar thread that I saw, I'm wondering if it was the same thread just remembered wrong?

This is how.

Lowry to Philly for Okafor, Covington and the LAL pick

Okafor and a future pick/bruno to Boston for #3 and Olynik

The offer LAL a sign and trade for Demar and their pick back for clarkson

So, Toronto was trying to get:
#3, Olynyk, Covington and the LAL top 3 only protected pick and not giving up #9 although possibly including Bruno.

Which is more than I would have Lowry worth, made worse by the fact that sending him to Philly on an expiring contract just isn't a place that is going to value Lowry more than Okafor, least of all piling in an expected mid lotto pick and a quality cheap rotation player.

Just pulled one of the most recent Lowry trade threads I saw, think mine was a slightly differ variation than the one you are posting...

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1445971

Philly gets Lowry, 9th pick
Philly adds a star PG and hometown boy to help sell tickets and peak fans interests. Lowry will bring stability and outside shooting and knows how to get some of Philly's big men involved. adds another top 10 pick to the fold.


Boston Gets Okafor
Boston adds a big man to offset all of their young and solid wing talent.

Toronto gets #3, Olynik, Covington
Toronto does trade to get secure opportunity of getting Murray,.....our hometown kid. Adds some young depth.

Now this offer I believe was initially from a Raptor fan since he stated "our hometown boy" in regards to Murray... Way more than reasonable in my eyes since, no way do I personally give up Lowry for a 6 spot climb in the draft, Covington and Olynyk (No offence as I know this deal involved the Celtics)... Still when you look at the responses the attitude is Lowry either doesn't have that value or Toronto should be cut out of the deal...

So the premise of all this is that Lowry (best player on an ECF team) and #9 pick are worth less than either J.Okafor (best player on the worst team in the NBA) or the #3 pick, Olynyk, Covington

[Laimbeer]

So Biyombo will be a 20M a year backup?

[HartfordWhalers]

Lowry gets offers like

Olynyk, Covington and a mere slide up of 6 draft slots (#9 to #3) and people think that's too much for the Raps...

That seems a lot different than a very similar thread that I saw, I'm wondering if it was the same thread just remembered wrong?

This is how.

Lowry to Philly for Okafor, Covington and the LAL pick

Okafor and a future pick/bruno to Boston for #3 and Olynik

The offer LAL a sign and trade for Demar and their pick back for clarkson

So, Toronto was trying to get:
#3, Olynyk, Covington and the LAL top 3 only protected pick and not giving up #9 although possibly including Bruno.

Which is more than I would have Lowry worth, made worse by the fact that sending him to Philly on an expiring contract just isn't a place that is going to value Lowry more than Okafor, least of all piling in an expected mid lotto pick and a quality cheap rotation player.

Just pulled one of the most recent Lowry trade threads I saw, think mine was a slightly differ variation than the one you are posting...

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1445971

Philly gets Lowry, 9th pick
Philly adds a star PG and hometown boy to help sell tickets and peak fans interests. Lowry will bring stability and outside shooting and knows how to get some of Philly's big men involved. adds another top 10 pick to the fold.


Boston Gets Okafor
Boston adds a big man to offset all of their young and solid wing talent.

Toronto gets #3, Olynik, Covington
Toronto does trade to get secure opportunity of getting Murray,.....our hometown kid. Adds some young depth.

Now this offer I believe was initially from a Raptor fan since he stated "our hometown boy" in regards to Murray... Way more than reasonable in my eyes since, no way do I personally give up Lowry for a 6 spot climb in the draft, Covington and Olynyk (No offence as I know this deal involved the Celtics)... Still when you look at the responses the attitude is Lowry either doesn't have that value or Toronto should be cut out of the deal...

So the premise of all this is that Lowry (best player on an ECF team) and #9 pick are worth less than either J.Okafor (best player on the worst team in the NBA) or the #3 pick, Olynyk, Covington

I posted a couple of times in that thread. And while some felt Toronto was straight up stealing value, there was also a pretty big contingent pointing out that Lowry doesn't have that value to Philly. Which he or any other great 30 year old on an expiring doesn't. The team will likely (lol) miss the playoffs next year, and then Lowry is an unrestricted free agent likely to want the best winning situation and on a very different age plane than the rest of Philly. Heck, the same thing has been pointed out about Westbrook to Philly, and Westbrook is a much closer age fit and a better player.

In terms of Lowry's value, on an expiring contract I don't have him worth more than #3 or Okafor. As for the gap between #3 and #9, I think its very large this year. But trying to get Philly to pay a premium price for a win now 30 year old expiring pg is clearly going to have issues, and that has nothing to do with the pg himself.

[Skeezo]

I posted a couple of times in that thread. And while some felt Toronto was straight up stealing value, there was also a pretty big contingent pointing out that Lowry doesn't have that value to Philly. Which he or any other great 30 year old on an expiring doesn't. The team will likely (lol) miss the playoffs next year, and then Lowry is an unrestricted free agent likely to want the best winning situation and on a very different age plane than the rest of Philly. Heck, the same thing has been pointed out about Westbrook to Philly, and Westbrook is a much closer age fit and a better player.

In terms of Lowry's value, on an expiring contract I don't have him worth more than #3 or Okafor. As for the gap between #3 and #9, I think its very large this year. But trying to get Philly to pay a premium price for a win now 30 year old expiring pg is clearly going to have issues, and that has nothing to do with the pg himself.

Whether someone (Lowry) is of value appropriate to a specific team (76ers) can certainly be argued and I don't deny that Lowry to 76ers doesn't seem to make sense. However, knowing how Colangelo operates the same could certainly be said of cutting the Raptors out (stealing value) and doing Okafor for #3 & Olynyk... BC's already on record as saying he is against trying to develop too much youth on the team at the same time... Simmons (Ingram), Embiid, Saric, and #3 pick would mean 4 rookies on the roster and that's not even including their picks in the 20s...

The premise still remains the same, that the attitude is that Lowry (30 yr old, one year remaining) isn't worth a Top 10 pick in either by pick or talent equvilancy. Even though he's been an Allstar for the past 2 yrs, took a team to an ECF and was actually traded for a lottery pick (S.Adams #12) before he accomplished these things... Does that not seem off in an evaluation?

Just curious, looking forward to 2017 Free Agency... Who has a bigger trade value/will cost more in free agency to retain than Lowry and what are those players worth from a pick, young player value perspective via trade in your opinion? All are within 3 yrs of age of Lowry and are all UFAs in 2017 (Meaning one year remaining)

C.Paul (31yrs)
P.Millsap (31yrs)
D.Gallinari (27yrs)
A.Iguodala (32yrs)
G.Hayward (27yrs)
D.Rose (28yrs)
R.Gay (30yrs)
S.Ibaka (27yrs)

Here's a secondary question... A.Johnson on the Celtics (29yrs & former Raptor) has one year left on his deal at 12m (if Celts opt in) what his value on trade market from a pick/young player value to you as a Celtics fan this offseason? The reason I ask is I remember how A.Johnson was valued on this board and that was when he was only making 7m per year. Now that you have had him on your team it would be interesting to hear your value for him going into his last year on his deal.

[BullyKing]

I posted a couple of times in that thread. And while some felt Toronto was straight up stealing value, there was also a pretty big contingent pointing out that Lowry doesn't have that value to Philly. Which he or any other great 30 year old on an expiring doesn't. The team will likely (lol) miss the playoffs next year, and then Lowry is an unrestricted free agent likely to want the best winning situation and on a very different age plane than the rest of Philly. Heck, the same thing has been pointed out about Westbrook to Philly, and Westbrook is a much closer age fit and a better player.

In terms of Lowry's value, on an expiring contract I don't have him worth more than #3 or Okafor. As for the gap between #3 and #9, I think its very large this year. But trying to get Philly to pay a premium price for a win now 30 year old expiring pg is clearly going to have issues, and that has nothing to do with the pg himself.

The reason I ask is I remember how A.Johnson was valued on this board and that was when he was only making 7m per year. Now that you have had him on your team it would be interesting to hear your value for him going into his last year on his deal.

For the record, HW is not a Celtics fan (I still don't understand why he's using the logo). I don't remember how people viewed Johnson's value before but I think he's worth basically a very late 1st to a team that needs a PF. He makes more now, but a lot of that is made up in the cap increase. It's more that you're not going to want to pay him next year on a long-term deal at 30.

[HartfordWhalers]

The premise still remains the same, that the attitude is that Lowry (30 yr old, one year remaining) isn't worth a Top 10 pick in either by pick or talent equvilancy.

See, I think this is the issue.

I mean, if someone proposed Lowry to Sac for 8 I would suggest Sac throw in Mclmeore (and question why Toronto is tearing its core apart). Lowry straight up for #6 to NOP is an interesting idea. If someone suggests Lowry for #3 to Boston (ignoring the guard glut), I think I go #3 and #16 (or #23) for Lowry and #9. #3 (or #4) are too far for him.

Same way I felt about Horford last trade deadline, his on the court value is amazing but getting it for such a short time frame, you need to have a legitimate title chance for me to feel comfortable giving up something as high up as a top 3 pick.

For what its worth, I had Batum because he was expiring as not worth Vonleh. Granted, I had a lot higher expectations for Vonleh than he has shown to deserve =(

But back on Lowry. If I say Lowry is worth #6, then I'm not sold I trade #3 for #6 and #9. Some drafts I would, but this one I would need someone to slip to #6 to do it.

[HartfordWhalers]

For the record, HW is not a Celtics fan

You don't get to pick who I am a fan of!

/Biyombo (Mutombo) finger wag

[Dr Positivity]

As for Bargnani... It's a ridiculous fleecing now, how much was it really back than though? Raps actually took back more long-term money with Novak affecting the payroll. Bargs though inconsistent, was only a year removed from a string of 3 seasons where he averaged 17-22 pts per games, and after Nowitzki was only the second example of 7 footer with range out to the 3 point line prior to the stretch 4 explosion. As people have now tended to tell Raps fans to devalue JV because the way the league is moving away from the traditional big, maybe Bargnani was valued appropriately as being an original stretch 4? Remember the Knicks had just come off a 50+ win season, the 1st Rd pick in their minds was expected to be in the 20s not in lottery.

Disagree, the Bargs trade was a joke from day one. He was one of the worst contracts in the league at 2 years/23 million for a terrible player, a PF who was the worst defender and rebounder in the league, couldn't stay on the court for more than half the season, and who had forgotten how to shoot 3s (30% the 2 seasons before), the latter two things because he was probably too lazy to work on his body or shot. Novak was coming off a 20mpg season for a 50 W Knicks team and even at his low standards probably a more valuable season than Bargs has ever had, for far less money. Ujiri getting a 1st for Bargs for the better player and the better in contract in Novak is ski mask level

[HartfordWhalers]

However, knowing how Colangelo operates the same could certainly be said of cutting the Raptors out (stealing value) and doing Okafor for #3 & Olynyk... BC's already on record as saying he is against trying to develop too much youth on the team at the same time... Simmons (Ingram), Embiid, Saric, and #3 pick would mean 4 rookies on the roster and that's not even including their picks in the 20s...

I take that comment from him to mean #24 and #26 are both getting traded (one for Ross, both for Joseph type deals). However, I don't think switching Okafor for Murray makes the team much younger in a real sense, and if it is switching Okafor for Dunn then it makes the team older which I think is a real possibility.

There is another thread where a ton of versions of Okafor for Knight with picks and etc is being debated. Is Knight worth as much as an expiring 30 year old Lowry in trade value? Imo no, not at all. But Knight is worth more to Philly based on age and contract, and a lot more the type of win now move I would expect to slowly erode the team going forward. Trading for Lowry (or Teague) would be a much quicker erosion, based upon my faith both would leave in a year.

[rapsrealm]

Not sure why the OP is proposing freeing up 20 million and signing Biyombo for that amount. He would be making more than JV at that point.

I agree in trading Ross to free up space (approx 12-14 million) to sign Biyombo.

I'd be willing to do 9+Ross+young player OR future 2nd to NOL for 6th.

[Skeezo]

As for Bargnani... It's a ridiculous fleecing now, how much was it really back than though? Raps actually took back more long-term money with Novak affecting the payroll. Bargs though inconsistent, was only a year removed from a string of 3 seasons where he averaged 17-22 pts per games, and after Nowitzki was only the second example of 7 footer with range out to the 3 point line prior to the stretch 4 explosion. As people have now tended to tell Raps fans to devalue JV because the way the league is moving away from the traditional big, maybe Bargnani was valued appropriately as being an original stretch 4? Remember the Knicks had just come off a 50+ win season, the 1st Rd pick in their minds was expected to be in the 20s not in lottery.

Disagree, the Bargs trade was a joke from day one. He was one of the worst contracts in the league at 2 years/23 million for a terrible player, a PF who was the worst defender and rebounder in the league, couldn't stay on the court for more than half the season, and who had forgotten how to shoot 3s (30% the 2 seasons before), the latter two things because he was probably too lazy to work on his body or shot. Novak was coming off a 20mpg season for a 50 W Knicks team and even at his low standards probably a more valuable season than Bargs has ever had, for far less money. Ujiri getting a 1st for Bargs for the better player and the better in contract in Novak is ski mask level

Of course we know that Positivity, we were watching it everyday... However, the art of the sale is knowing how to put on the spin and dish out the rhetoric to serve someones needs. How do you think the deal got done without it? Knicks were trying to align for LBJ offseason and cutting the extra year of Novak vs Bargs was advantageous not too mention Bargs was the best player in the trade to add to a 50+ win team. For them it was a win/win in respect to what was though of as a late 20s pick and mere money in a large NY market... There's no denying that in theory the bait was true, so the Knicks bought it and then sold it to their fans for a short time... Difference was for Raptor fans after 6 years we had convinced ourselves it would cost us to get rid of him, so when we got a 1st Rd for him, it was considered a steal in our mind right from the jump.

[jimmy keys]

Basically every trade in this thread has been pure trash.

Right above this someone offered 18 and cap space. Thats a very solid offer. There have been multiple offers of late 1sts.

If you want to disagree and think Toronto should get cap space to chase re-signing Biyombo and get more than an an offer like 18, go for ut. But actually make an argument and explain your thinking, don't just post calling all the offers trash. That adds nothing.

We already own 2 1st round picks, one of which will probably have to be moved, so to trade two valuable rotation players on very reasonable contracts for cap space and mid 20 picks makes zero sense for a team looking to compete right now.

The whole premiss of the thread is ridiculous because on no planet would Biyombo command a 20+ million a year salary to begin with.

You didn't call out the guy who offered Joseph, Ross + 9th for Vance Jr., but I'm supposed to explain why late 1st round picks for solid rotation players on ECF team is disproportionate value?

If you want to dump Ross that's one thing, but Joseph isn't going anywhere and no amount of late round picks in a weak draft is going to change that. The late picks have zero value. None! That includes the 18th pick too.

[Skeezo]

The premise still remains the same, that the attitude is that Lowry (30 yr old, one year remaining) isn't worth a Top 10 pick in either by pick or talent equvilancy.

See, I think this is the issue.

I mean, if someone proposed Lowry to Sac for 8 I would suggest Sac throw in Mclmeore (and question why Toronto is tearing its core apart). Lowry straight up for #6 to NOP is an interesting idea. If someone suggests Lowry for #3 to Boston (ignoring the guard glut), I think I go #3 and #16 (or #23) for Lowry and #9. #3 (or #4) are too far for him.

Same way I felt about Horford last trade deadline, his on the court value is amazing but getting it for such a short time frame, you need to have a legitimate title chance for me to feel comfortable giving up something as high up as a top 3 pick.

For what its worth, I had Batum because he was expiring as not worth Vonleh. Granted, I had a lot higher expectations for Vonleh than he has shown to deserve =(

But back on Lowry. If I say Lowry is worth #6, then I'm not sold I trade #3 for #6 and #9. Some drafts I would, but this one I would need someone to slip to #6 to do it.

Nice detail and perspective... Thanks... I won't say I agree with it all but can appreciate your rationale. I most definitely agree with you that certain players can hold higher values to specific teams then other players do (even though they probably shouldn't... i.e. Knight/Lowry)... Is it safe to say that between Lowry, JV, DeRozan (depending on deal) Raps have 3 guys that are worth somewhere between a #5-#8 pick depending on the draft but none are worth a Top 5 their own? Or in the case of other superstars worth multiple firsts or a high lotto + another young prospect?

[HartfordWhalers]

Basically every trade in this thread has been pure trash.

Right above this someone offered 18 and cap space. Thats a very solid offer. There have been multiple offers of late 1sts.

If you want to disagree and think Toronto should get cap space to chase re-signing Biyombo and get more than an an offer like 18, go for ut. But actually make an argument and explain your thinking, don't just post calling all the offers trash. That adds nothing.

We already own 2 1st round picks, one of which will probably have to be moved, so to trade two valuable rotation players on very reasonable contracts for cap space and mid 20 picks makes zero sense for a team looking to compete right now.

The whole premiss of the thread is ridiculous because on no planet would Biyombo command a 20+ million a year salary to begin with.

You didn't call out the guy who offered Joseph, Ross + 9th for Vance Jr., but I'm supposed to explain why late 1st round picks for solid rotation players on ECF team is disproportionate value?

If you want to dump Ross that's one thing, but Joseph is
n't going anywhere and no amount of late round picks in a weak draft is going to change that. The late picks have zero value. None! That includes the 18th pick too.

His post was pretty well handled when I saw it, and posts like that absolutely have been getting called out. If you see a horrible counter like that, please use the report function and we will get on it as a team because they dumb down the discussion and have no place.

But someone else made a horribly crappy post, so I did the same isn't going to fly.


If you want to argue that Toronto shouldn't try to clear 20m in cap room and dump decent players like Joseph to do so, thats a a great point and one worth making.

If you instead are arguing that 18 is a crappy offer for Joseph, it isn't at all.

Similarly the idea that a 1st round pick has zero value is just absurd. You should know better than that. But at least posting that and letting others know what possibly absurd position you have allows for a discussion, instead of what you did above.


And if you really think late picks have zero value, I will take Toronto's late pick. Even willing to include 3.4m in cash for it. Pretty sure I could easily broker that deal for either New York market team, so any interest? It is literally money for nothing!

[HartfordWhalers]

The premise still remains the same, that the attitude is that Lowry (30 yr old, one year remaining) isn't worth a Top 10 pick in either by pick or talent equvilancy.

See, I think this is the issue.

I mean, if someone proposed Lowry to Sac for 8 I would suggest Sac throw in Mclmeore (and question why Toronto is tearing its core apart). Lowry straight up for #6 to NOP is an interesting idea. If someone suggests Lowry for #3 to Boston (ignoring the guard glut), I think I go #3 and #16 (or #23) for Lowry and #9. #3 (or #4) are too far for him.

Same way I felt about Horford last trade deadline, his on the court value is amazing but getting it for such a short time frame, you need to have a legitimate title chance for me to feel comfortable giving up something as high up as a top 3 pick.

For what its worth, I had Batum because he was expiring as not worth Vonleh. Granted, I had a lot higher expectations for Vonleh than he has shown to deserve =(

But back on Lowry. If I say Lowry is worth #6, then I'm not sold I trade #3 for #6 and #9. Some drafts I would, but this one I would need someone to slip to #6 to do it.

Nice detail and perspective... Thanks... I won't say I agree with it all but can appreciate your rationale. I most definitely agree with you that certain players can hold higher values to specific teams then other players do (even though they probably shouldn't... i.e. Knight/Lowry)... Is it safe to say that between Lowry, JV, DeRozan (depending on deal) Raps have 3 guys that are worth somewhere between a #5-#8 pick depending on the draft but none are worth a Top 5 their own? Or in the case of other superstars worth multiple firsts or a high lotto + another young prospect?

Derozan has to be worth 0, for now. He is unrestricted and almost everyone has cap space. Now, when he re-signs, even on a max deal I think I have him more valuable than Lowry's affordable but expiring contract. I might flinch when I see what those numbers really are, but talent at sf is rare enough that (I'm picking on NOP, sorry Pelican fans), but NOP trading 6 for him -- ignoring the timeline issues -- would make a ton of sense for the team. The timeline issues dragging his value to 0 this summer when if he wanted to go there they just get him for free, and if he doesn't, then he cannot be traded till December.