Jahil Okafor + Robert Covington for Marquesse Chriss (+ TJ Warren)

[freshie2]

Please explain to me how Covington is better than Warren.

BPM and RPM both have him clearly better right now.

You have to think opinions change on Covington once his 3pt% returns to career levels above 35%...he really does so many of the other aspects of the game. While hes not a star, I would be fine with the Sixers getting him locked up past his current deal. He's exactly the type of player you want next to Simmons.

[Fo-Real]

I was one of the main posters on the Suns board who was in favor of throwing assets for Okafor, and not against trading for Noel (no where near Bled, Tj, or Booker thoe). After watching them play lastnight, I see what pisses you guys off about both of them. Just no positive impact on the game when each is in, much like Knight when he isn't controlling the ball and hitting his shots. Don't like their energy or activity level and no longer think either would be a good trade idea for the Suns. Atleast Knight gets white hot from time to time when we let him have full control and the ball in his hands to do as he pleases. If you don't make Jah the focal point of your offense, and dump it down to him constantly, he is useless otherwise, and Noel didn't look any better than a 50 yo Ty Chandler. Would rather flip Knight and maybe picks for someone who impacts the team now, or just ride it out, draft well and look to move him in the offseason.

[Saberestar]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

[HartfordWhalers]

Yeah, Warren's officially overrated. That was quick.

[Fo-Real]

Yeah, that must be it.

[Fo-Real]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

Warren isn't worth those two guys, be reasonable. You can say you would rather keep Tj, or you don't favor either Jah's or Covington's games, but not that they aren't both young and talented. Right now... I wouldnt trade Warren or just drafted Chriss for those two, but that's not to say I wouldn't have traded Warren for Okafor last year, he'll if we had offered Warren for Okafor last year we would have been laughed off this site, and rightfully so.

Main idea is the Suns have a core (Bled, Book, Warren) that they want to add to. If someone of great value and impact becomes available for one if those dudes, they are avaliable, (not Jah or Covington right now). We also went young, (Chriss, Bender, Ulis) and want time to developers and see if these dudes can be part of the core. Jury is out, all have tremendous upside and possibility and don't want to trade any of them before we see what development holds for them, but for the right guys... of course they can be had (still no qualifying offers). The rest is anywhere from available for make sense deals (Len, Tucker, Chandler, Duds, Barbosa) although we like them and don't mind if they stay, and need a new situation (Knight) and picks to help the bottom line. Jah would mean changing our offense entirely and Covington isn't better in our current system than Warren. So it's a no to this one.

[Fo-Real]

Would love to move Knight and others if nessasary and winding up with another young big like Willie Stein from Sacto. Don't know how that would happen thoe.

[Saberestar]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

Warren isn't worth those two guys, be reasonable. You can say you would rather keep Tj, or you don't favor either Jah's or Covington's games, but not that they aren't both young and talented. Right now... I wouldnt trade Warren or just drafted Chriss for those two, but that's not to say I wouldn't have traded Warren for Okafor last year, he'll if we had offered Warren for Okafor last year we would have been laughed off this site, and rightfully so.

I am reasonable.

I think that Covington is a solid player, a good 3p shooter who provides decent defense and rebounding for his position. BUT he is a role player at best, he is 26 years old and he is not a shot creator or tough player who can be a game changer.

He is gonna be paid next summer. I prefer to not deal with that because a cheaper veteran player or someone on a rookie contract can give his production.

Okafor is decreasing his value around the league day by day, his defense is non existent. That is huge.

I like his post moves, he reminds me of Al Jefferson and even Tim Duncan sometimes, but his effort is low and he moves his feet really slow. He is passive, and that is terrible for a big guy who has to protect the rim.

His mentality does not help neither.

The current NBA is not a good place for talented post players if they are a liability on defense and are not great athletes. Look at Monroe.

Give me the two-way and hardworker SF who can score 20 points efficiently every single night over those two guys. Just my opinion.

[Sportfan73]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

Warren isn't worth those two guys, be reasonable. You can say you would rather keep Tj, or you don't favor either Jah's or Covington's games, but not that they aren't both young and talented. Right now... I wouldnt trade Warren or just drafted Chriss for those two, but that's not to say I wouldn't have traded Warren for Okafor last year, he'll if we had offered Warren for Okafor last year we would have been laughed off this site, and rightfully so.

I am reasonable.

I think that Covington is a solid player, a good 3p shooter who provides decent defense and rebounding for his position. BUT he is a role player at best, he is 26 years old and he is not a shot creator or tough player who can be a game changer.

He is gonna be paid next summer. I prefer to not deal with that because a cheaper veteran player or someone on a rookie contract can give his production.

Okafor is decreasing his value around the league day by day, his defense is non existent. That is huge.

I like his post moves, he reminds me of Al Jefferson and even Tim Duncan sometimes, but his effort is low and he moves his feet really slow. He is passive, and that is terrible for a big guy who has to protect the rim.

His mentality does not help neither.

The current NBA is not a good place for talented post players if they are a liability on defense and are not great athletes. Look at Monroe.

Give me the two-way and hardworker SF who can score 20 points efficiently every single night over those two guys. Just my opinion.

He provides a lot better than decent defense and it's to 3 positions not just his.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[jpengland]

Covington has quietly become an outstanding defensive player.

Hes an ideal role player on just about any team in the league.

Warren can't shoot, can't play defense although gets to the hoop well.

To.me, Covington has significantly higher value.

[Sportfan73]

I would say jah has the least value of the 4 but Covington is a little behind Chriss and ahead of warren


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[freshie2]

I was one of the main posters on the Suns board who was in favor of throwing assets for Okafor, and not against trading for Noel (no where near Bled, Tj, or Booker thoe). After watching them play lastnight, I see what pisses you guys off about both of them. Just no positive impact on the game when each is in, much like Knight when he isn't controlling the ball and hitting his shots. Don't like their energy or activity level and no longer think either would be a good trade idea for the Suns. Atleast Knight gets white hot from time to time when we let him have full control and the ball in his hands to do as he pleases. If you don't make Jah the focal point of your offense, and dump it down to him constantly, he is useless otherwise, and Noel didn't look any better than a 50 yo Ty Chandler. Would rather flip Knight and maybe picks for someone who impacts the team now, or just ride it out, draft well and look to move him in the offseason.

I don't see these teams as good trade partners, Booker is the only real chip id be interested in from the sixers perspective.

Okafor has a little more value than you are claiming. Not perfect, but put him in a prime position with good perimeter shooting and I do think he's an asset on a team like the suns.

Noel played 10 minutes, so I'm not sure it's a reasonable comparison. I'm a fan of chandler, but he makes no sense on the suns. Hope they flip him to a contender before the deadline.

[TTP]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

Warren isn't worth those two guys, be reasonable. You can say you would rather keep Tj, or you don't favor either Jah's or Covington's games, but not that they aren't both young and talented. Right now... I wouldnt trade Warren or just drafted Chriss for those two, but that's not to say I wouldn't have traded Warren for Okafor last year, he'll if we had offered Warren for Okafor last year we would have been laughed off this site, and rightfully so.

I am reasonable.

I think that Covington is a solid player, a good 3p shooter who provides decent defense and rebounding for his position. BUT he is a role player at best, he is 26 years old and he is not a shot creator or tough player who can be a game changer.

He is gonna be paid next summer. I prefer to not deal with that because a cheaper veteran player or someone on a rookie contract can give his production.

Okafor is decreasing his value around the league day by day, his defense is non existent. That is huge.

I like his post moves, he reminds me of Al Jefferson and even Tim Duncan sometimes, but his effort is low and he moves his feet really slow. He is passive, and that is terrible for a big guy who has to protect the rim.

His mentality does not help neither.

The current NBA is not a good place for talented post players if they are a liability on defense and are not great athletes. Look at Monroe.

Give me the two-way and hardworker SF who can score 20 points efficiently every single night over those two guys. Just my opinion.

Covington is significantly better than just a decent defender. He's arguably one of the best and most versatile wing defenders in the league since the start of last season.

Warren isn't a game changer either. He's a decent player, probably around average for his position. He probably doesn't have much equity to be even the third best player on a contending team.

You use "he is gonna be paid next summer" as a reason against Covington but not against Warren? Their contracts are up at the same time in two summers. Covington is cheaper until then but you'd have RFA rights with Warren, which likely aren't worth that much since he's not going to be getting a max.

If you think he's worth more than Covington, then you should expect to have to pay more for him than Covington in two summers - you can't use this argument both ways.

I wouldn't trade Covington for Warren straight up. I don't think Warren's upside is enough for me to care about the age difference when Covington is better than Warren now, is significantly cheaper for the next 1.5 seasons, and has a much more desirable skillset as a 3 and D wing that can guard any player 1 through 4. These types of players are scarce, desirable, and malleable - you can fit him into just about any lineup. That makes him more valuable to me.

I agree that Okafor sucks and isn't particularly valuable.

[TTP]

Also, Warren isn't scoring efficiently this season and only average efficiency for his career. 50th percentile TS% for small forwards is 53.7%. Warren's is 51.1% this season, which would put him below 30th percentile. His career average of 53.9% would be almost exactly average but it's reasonable to consider that his significantly increased usage this season is responsible for the drop in efficiency.



DRPM also grades Warren as 50th out of 80 SFs. He was 61st out of 64 last season. I'm not sure you can call Warren a two way player right now. Covington is 3rd after being 3rd last season.

[TTP]

I was one of the main posters on the Suns board who was in favor of throwing assets for Okafor, and not against trading for Noel (no where near Bled, Tj, or Booker thoe). After watching them play lastnight, I see what pisses you guys off about both of them. Just no positive impact on the game when each is in, much like Knight when he isn't controlling the ball and hitting his shots. Don't like their energy or activity level and no longer think either would be a good trade idea for the Suns. Atleast Knight gets white hot from time to time when we let him have full control and the ball in his hands to do as he pleases. If you don't make Jah the focal point of your offense, and dump it down to him constantly, he is useless otherwise, and Noel didn't look any better than a 50 yo Ty Chandler. Would rather flip Knight and maybe picks for someone who impacts the team now, or just ride it out, draft well and look to move him in the offseason.

Noel had 4 stocks in 10 minutes, hit his only shot (a jumper), and got to the line twice. 10 minutes is way too small of a sample to make any real conclusions but I don't understand how you can say that he wasn't active.

[Saberestar]

Also, Warren isn't scoring efficiently this season and only average efficiency for his career. 50th percentile TS% for small forwards is 53.7%. Warren's is 51.1% this season, which would put him below 30th percentile. His career average of 53.9% would be almost exactly average but it's reasonable to consider that his significantly increased usage this season is responsible for the drop in efficiency.



DRPM also grades Warren as 50th out of 80 SFs. He was 61st out of 64 last season. I'm not sure you can call Warren a two way player right now. Covington is 3rd after being 3rd last season.

Well, we disagree about the value of Covington and Warren. It is OK.

Like I said before, I like Covington as a role player because he defends and he is a good 3p shooter but I think he is a limited player. To me Warren has All Star potential, and that gives him the edge.

We will see in the next few years who of them is more valuable for his team and the entire league.

[TTP]

Also, Warren isn't scoring efficiently this season and only average efficiency for his career. 50th percentile TS% for small forwards is 53.7%. Warren's is 51.1% this season, which would put him below 30th percentile. His career average of 53.9% would be almost exactly average but it's reasonable to consider that his significantly increased usage this season is responsible for the drop in efficiency.



DRPM also grades Warren as 50th out of 80 SFs. He was 61st out of 64 last season. I'm not sure you can call Warren a two way player right now. Covington is 3rd after being 3rd last season.

Well, we disagree about the value of Covington and Warren. It is OK.

Like I said before, I like Covington as a role player because he defends and he is a good 3p shooter but I think he is a limited player. To me Warren has All Star potential, and that gives him the edge.

We will see in the next few years who of them is more valuable for his team and the entire league.

Yikes at the bolded. Do you realize how difficult it is to make an All-Star team, especially in the West? Mike Conley has never been an All-Star. DeAndre Jordan has never been an All-Star. Rudy Gobert has never been an All-Star. Derrick Favors has never been an All-Star. Danilo Gallinari has never been an All-Star. Gordon Hayward has never been an All-Star. Warren doesn't have the upside of any of those guys.

Also, I cited very specific counterpoints to your argument using various statistics as evidence. You said he was an efficient scorer and a positive defender when he is likely neither. What about his game (that's factually correct) do you have to make you feel so strongly about him?

[Saberestar]

Also, Warren isn't scoring efficiently this season and only average efficiency for his career. 50th percentile TS% for small forwards is 53.7%. Warren's is 51.1% this season, which would put him below 30th percentile. His career average of 53.9% would be almost exactly average but it's reasonable to consider that his significantly increased usage this season is responsible for the drop in efficiency.



DRPM also grades Warren as 50th out of 80 SFs. He was 61st out of 64 last season. I'm not sure you can call Warren a two way player right now. Covington is 3rd after being 3rd last season.

Well, we disagree about the value of Covington and Warren. It is OK.

Like I said before, I like Covington as a role player because he defends and he is a good 3p shooter but I think he is a limited player. To me Warren has All Star potential, and that gives him the edge.

We will see in the next few years who of them is more valuable for his team and the entire league.

Yikes at the bolded. Do you realize how difficult it is to make an All-Star team, especially in the West? Mike Conley has never been an All-Star. DeAndre Jordan has never been an All-Star. Rudy Gobert has never been an All-Star. Derrick Favors has never been an All-Star. Gordon Hayward has never been an All-Star. Warren doesn't have the upside of any of those guys.

Also, I cited very specific counterpoints to your argument using various statistics as evidence. You said he was an efficient scorer and a positive defender when he is likely neither. What about his game (that's factually correct) do you have to make you feel so strongly about him?

That thing named "eye test".

I am little bit an old school guy in that regard, I value statistics like a complement, I do not give them a ton of credit.

We will see, I seriously expect him to be an All Star or someone who could be as valuable as an All Star (ala Jordan or Conley).

[TTP]

Well, we disagree about the value of Covington and Warren. It is OK.

Like I said before, I like Covington as a role player because he defends and he is a good 3p shooter but I think he is a limited player. To me Warren has All Star potential, and that gives him the edge.

We will see in the next few years who of them is more valuable for his team and the entire league.

Yikes at the bolded. Do you realize how difficult it is to make an All-Star team, especially in the West? Mike Conley has never been an All-Star. DeAndre Jordan has never been an All-Star. Rudy Gobert has never been an All-Star. Derrick Favors has never been an All-Star. Gordon Hayward has never been an All-Star. Warren doesn't have the upside of any of those guys.

Also, I cited very specific counterpoints to your argument using various statistics as evidence. You said he was an efficient scorer and a positive defender when he is likely neither. What about his game (that's factually correct) do you have to make you feel so strongly about him?

That thing named "eye test".

I am little bit an old school guy in that regard, I value statistics like a complement, I do not give them a ton of credit.

We will see, I seriously expect him to be an All Star or someone who could be as valuable as an All Star (ala Jordan or Conley).

Well if you don't give statistics a ton of credit, how can you say he's an efficient scorer? If you had said he was a scorer, sure. You specifically used the word efficient though, which requires statistics (and not the eye test) to measure.

[TTP]

The Suns say NO to this offer.

IMO Warren alone has more value than Okafor and Covington together. It is not even close.

Furthermore, how many games of the Sixers have you watched? You claim to be an eye test guy but have you watched any Sixers games other than when they played the Suns? If you claim to use the eye test as your primary means of judging a player's value but your eyes haven't seen Okafor or Covington play much, how can you take such a strong position on their value?