Charlotte - Chicago - Portland

[Village Idiot]

Charlotte trades:

Gerald Wallace
6-7 SG / SF from Alabama
15.4 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.9 apg in 38.2 minutes

Charlotte receives:

Andres Nocioni
6-7 SF from Argentina (Foreign)
9.5 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.8 minutes

Channing Frye
6-11 PF from Arizona
5.7 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 16.0 minutes

Larry Brown seems to want to move Wallace as a start to rebuilding the franchise. He and Frye got along great in NY. He gives them a high-post screener and shooter who can create space down-low for Okafor.

Nocioni has a lot of the same qualities as Wallace but is a better shooter. He also has a declining value contract.


Chicago trades:

Andres Nocioni
6-7 SF from Argentina (Foreign)
9.5 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.8 minutes

Kirk Hinrich
6-3 PG from Kansas
8.3 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 4.0 apg in 24.4 minutes

Chicago receives:

Steve Blake
6-3 PG from Maryland
11.1 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 4.0 apg in 29.1 minutes

Raef LaFrentz
6-11 PF / C from Kansas
No games yet played in 2008-2009

The Bulls cut cost before 2010 and get a really solid back-up PG. Personally I think the Bulls are too many pieces away from contention and should aim for a high pick this year and a top-flight free-agent in 2010.


Portland trades:

Channing Frye
6-11 PF from Arizona
5.7 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 16.0 minutes

Steve Blake
6-3 PG from Maryland
11.1 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 4.0 apg in 29.1 minutes

Raef LaFrentz
6-11 PF / C from Kansas
No games yet played in 2008-2009


Portland receives:

Gerald Wallace
6-7 SG / SF from Alabama
15.4 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.9 apg in 38.2 minutes

Kirk Hinrich
6-3 PG from Kansas
8.3 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 4.0 apg in 24.4 minutes

Portland upgrades defensively at it's two positions of need. Wallace gives them a lock-down defender who can score as well on cuts and Hinrich is pretty much Steve Blake offensively. At 26 and 27 respectively Wallace and Hinrich are just the kind of players they should consider with their ample up-coming cap-space.

[coldfish]

Portland just drilled Chicago this year in Portland. I think that skews Portland fans' vision of the Bulls.

Other than at Portland and at Boston, Chicago has played reasonable well against the hardest schedule in the NBA. Derrick Rose is the primary reason. Because of that:

The Bulls cut cost before 2010 and get a really solid back-up PG. Personally I think the Bulls are too many pieces away from contention and should aim for a high pick this year and a top-flight free-agent in 2010.

Chicago isn't going to ever get a high draft pick again as long as Rose is healthy. 2010 is another matter and this trade would set them up perfectly for it.

As far as the trade:
Portland gets too much
Chicago does alright
Charlotte gets screwed

[treis]

Oh look, another trade where Portland gives up nothing and gets good young players in return.

[Cliff Levingston]

Portland robs everyone but they're not unrealistic deals given the team circumstances though. Hard to understand why Charlotte wants to get rid of Wallace, but ICLO, they'd hold out for a better return than this. At the same time, Cliff Levingston doesn't think the Bulls have any desire to salary dump Nocioni.

[andalusian]

Oh look, another trade where Portland gives up nothing and gets good young players in return.

A huge expiring contract is nothing?

[Village Idiot]

Oh look, another trade where Portland gives up nothing and gets good young players in return.

A huge expiring contract is nothing?

I forgot to mention that insurance pays 70% of Raef's salary after game 41. That's $5 million in instant savings.

Portland could probably sweeten the deal for Charlotte by either adding a top 10 protected pick or adding Diogu and taking back Carroll.

[SabasRevenge!]

Wallace and Hinrich coming in for Frye, Blake, and Lafrentz looks like robbery on paper, but as the distinguished Mr. Cliff Levingston said, the team circumstances make it possible. IMO Outlaw and Sergio could both be moved given the current makeup of the team, but neither of those teams really need another PG.

[BigSlam]

As an adaption?:

Char out:
Wallace
Carroll

Char in:
Frye
Thomas
Sefolosha

Bobcats add a mobile PF with range in Frye who LB has a good history with. His contract is up at the end of the season which would be a concern though (would he bolt or would they have to over pay to keep him?). They add an on ball defender in Thabo with handles and move Richardson to the 3. Thomas is a project that might or might not work out?

Chi out:
Hinrich
Thomas
Sefolosha

Chi in:
Blake
Webster
LaFrentz

They get a cheap alternate to back up the studly Rose and save cap space. They get a massive expiring in LaFrentz. They get a ready replacement for Gordon should he walk at the end of the season on a very good deal in Webster.

Por out:
Webster
Blake
LaFrentz
Frye

Por in:
Hinrich
Wallace
Carroll

They get the "win now" SF they need, a big defensive point to allow Roy to work more freely on the offensive end a shooter off the bench.

[CellarDoor]

With Noc going out, outlaw could have a purpose on Chicago's team. But Chicago isn't really the problem, I'm personally okay with the trade for us, but Charlotte's getting hosed even with the circumstances being considered. Of course with Wallace going out I could see them having a place for Outlaw to play some 4 in front of/behind Frye.

[Agenda42]

The Blazers would happily add another player to the deal to get this done.

That's good, because Charlotte looks to be getting screwed pretty good here.

[CellarDoor]

As an adaption?:

Char out:
Wallace
Carroll

Char in:
Frye
Thomas
Sefolosha

Bobcats add a mobile PF with range in Frye who LB has a good history with. His contract is up at the end of the season which would be a concern though (would he bolt or would they have to over pay to keep him?). They add an on ball defender in Thabo with handles and move Richardson to the 3. Thomas is a project that might or might not work out?

Chi out:
Hinrich
Thomas
Sefolosha

Chi in:
Blake
Webster
LaFrentz

They get a cheap alternate to back up the studly Rose and save cap space. They get a massive expiring in LaFrentz. They get a ready replacement for Gordon should he walk at the end of the season on a very good deal in Webster.

Por out:
Webster
Blake
LaFrentz
Frye

Por in:
Hinrich
Wallace
Carroll

They get the "win now" SF they need, a big defensive point to allow Roy to work more freely on the offensive end a shooter off the bench.

Taking out Noc and adding in Sefa and Thomas for Webster makes this a "no" for me I think.

[treis]

Oh look, another trade where Portland gives up nothing and gets good young players in return.

A huge expiring contract is nothing?

Pretty much. Portland isn't taking on bad deals here. If Portland were taking back Hughes, for example, that would be giving up value. In this trade, the expiring is just filler to make the trade work.

[andalusian]

Oh look, another trade where Portland gives up nothing and gets good young players in return.

A huge expiring contract is nothing?

Pretty much. Portland isn't taking on bad deals here. If Portland were taking back Hughes, for example, that would be giving up value. In this trade, the expiring is just filler to make the trade work.

What Portland has done with it's cap space is not the issue - the expiring is not just a filler to make the trade work - it is a way for Chicago to stay under the Cap (a big deal for them) and it makes them a player in the upcoming free-agent market.

A big expiring contract is not "nothing" - it has a lot of value in this league - yes, Portland comes ahead on the talent level - but they will get some talent for the expiring anyway via another trade or the free-agent market anyway - so it's not as if they give nothing for something.

[CellarDoor]

^Chicago's FO (despite the desperate pleas from some fans) has given NO indictations that they're concerned with getting under the cap. The only reason most Bulls fans even want to move Kirk is because he doesn't fit the team and Rose is obviously the future. If Kirk was a (true) SG, we'd be holding onto him. And they are essentially getting something for nothing. Kirk for Raef/Blake has been agreed to by many a Blazer fan recently, so unless Channing Frye is now worth Gerald Wallace...you're completely wrong.

[andalusian]

There are two caps to discuss here - but the one I alluded to was the luxury cap - and the Bulls have been notorious in trying to stay under it - did they not release Nichols just recently to get under the luxury cap - thus saving $100K or so?

Raef's expiring allows the Bulls to sign Ben Gordon (who seems to work pretty well with Rose) to a contract he desires while staying under the luxury cap - and if this does not work - splash on upgrades via free-agency.

I would argue that the negotiations with Deng and Gordon, the Nichols release and the hiring of a cheap coach speak volumes about Chicago's reluctance to "spend" - and as such - the expiring contract is an attractive asset for Chicago.

On a side note - it does not matter one bit if I am right about my interpretation of Chicago's financial outlook - but the original claim that Portland gives nothing for something is clearly wrong just looking at it from Portland's view - because Portland values this expiring contract and will use it in another trade or in the free-agent market because they will be under the cap. The expiring contract has a lot of value for Portland, period.

[Wizenheimer]

As an adaption?:

Char out:
Wallace
Carroll

Char in:
Frye
Thomas
Sefolosha

Bobcats add a mobile PF with range in Frye who LB has a good history with. His contract is up at the end of the season which would be a concern though (would he bolt or would they have to over pay to keep him?). They add an on ball defender in Thabo with handles and move Richardson to the 3. Thomas is a project that might or might not work out?

Chi out:
Hinrich
Thomas
Sefolosha

Chi in:
Blake
Webster
LaFrentz

They get a cheap alternate to back up the studly Rose and save cap space. They get a massive expiring in LaFrentz. They get a ready replacement for Gordon should he walk at the end of the season on a very good deal in Webster.

Por out:
Webster
Blake
LaFrentz
Frye

Por in:
Hinrich
Wallace
Carroll

They get the "win now" SF they need, a big defensive point to allow Roy to work more freely on the offensive end a shooter off the bench.

for portland, that' still a good deal. Getting both wallace and hinrich (and their contracts) would mean portland's 2009 cap-space plan was dead, so adding Carrol and his contract wouldn't matter.

I still don't thing Wallace is a great match for portland's frontline, but he'd still be a significant upgrade. Hinrich is an upgrade over blake, though not nearly as significant a one as many believe. portland will certainly miss Blake's perimter shooting.

This trade would need to take place in the New Year when Hinrich would be ready to return.

[gswhoops]

A big expiring contract is not "nothing" - it has a lot of value in this league

Wrong. An expiring contract in and of itself has no value. An expiring contract has value only if:

1. It is combined with young prospects and/or picks.

2. You are taking back a player (or players) that the other team does not want.

Even in the much-maligned Pau Gasol deal, Kwame's big expiring only had "value" because it was combined with two young prospects (Crittenton + Marc Gasol) and two 1st round picks AND because Memphis was in extreme cost-cutting mode (making Pau a player the Memphis no longer wanted). Kwame's expiring wasn't what made the deal work, it was the rebuilding pieces.

The idea that expiring contracts themselves will get you desirable players is a common fallacy on the T&T board, but an inaccurate one.

[andalusian]

A big expiring contract is not "nothing" - it has a lot of value in this league

Wrong. An expiring contract in and of itself has no value. An expiring contract has value only if:

1. It is combined with young prospects and/or picks.

2. You are taking back a player (or players) that the other team does not want.

I am not wrong at all - the original post I answered claimed that Portland was giving nothing for something - which is clearly wrong FOR PORTLAND - because the expiring contract is putting them under the cap - so they can go get some talent for this cap.

So - Portland does not give nothing for something - it gives something (Cap Space) for something (Talent) (which is the same as getting a free-agent for cap-space).

You can argue that the other team does not get something that they need and the expiring is not worth for them - and that could be a valid argument (not in the case of the Bulls and their tendency to avoid the luxury cap, imho) - but the original argument that was clearly wrong is that Portland gives nothing for something.

Portland gives cap-space for talent - and Portland's cap-space is materialized in the expiring contract.

[CellarDoor]

We don't need Kirk's contract gone to sign BG and stay under the tax next year. Gooden and Simmons allow us to do that.

And no matter how you split it you're giving Frye for Crash. Which even if you don't like the term "nothing" it too little for too much.

[treis]

Hinrich is an upgrade over blake, though not nearly as significant a one as many believe. portland will certainly miss Blake's perimter shooting.

No they won't. Kirk is just as good of a shooter as Blake is. 37.7% career 3P% for Kirk, and 38.4% for Blake.