Offers from the other side.

[Stix]

What a pointless thread.... whatever you throw at the OP he is just lickin' his chops waiting to turn it down.

In all reality, the CAVS should and will not make any moves before the end of the season... if it aint broke don't try to fix it.... trust me I am a "whining" SUNS fan, who only complains about how Sarver/Kerr ruined our team. (before I get bashed my OP)

[SportsInfoBar]

I never said West was clearly better than Rip, I said it was closer than people think...

Not at all what you said. In fact, this is what you said.

Your kidding right?
Rip is NOT def. the best player in the deal. How do you think Rip is even better than West?

The word "even" pretty clearly implies that you believe West to be the better player. That's fine, but you have to expect people to respond, and not always in the way you'd like, when you make your opinions known...

At least I back up my opinions with facts. I do believe West is the better player for our team right now... I don't care who might win a one on one game. At least I document why I feel this way, everyone else just says, "how dare you compare to the almighty Rip Hamilton"

We need floor spacers, people who can shoot 3's. West does this better than Rip. And West is a better defender. Rip is better running off screens and he can post up better. West is our best backup PG, can Rip do that for us? The value of West to us is WAY higher than he might be to other teams.. he is one of those "glue" guys, he does whatever it takes on a given night.

I don't mind others opinions, but at least explain why you have that opinion.

When I made my first statement, I thought the value of the two was relatively close, but after the research when you account for age, salary AND production...it is not even close, I would NOT trade West for Hamilton straight up at this point. This is MY opinion, not all Cavs fans opinion, if you don't like it, I could care less.

[heathmalc]

The word "even" pretty clearly implies that you believe West to be the better player. That's fine, but you have to expect people to respond, and not always in the way you'd like, when you make your opinions known...

And here is my opinion:

West is 25; Rip is 30

West is on a cheap contract; Rip is on a very expensive, long contract

West is the better defender, and all of his numbers (since starting @ SG) are as good or better than Rip's numbers.

It wouldn't make sense for the Cavaliers to give-up a young guy on a cheap contract, who is playing as well or better than a division rival's former all-star, who's only advantage seemingly is that he is taller. It definitely would not make any sense to Give away that young player, plus 2 more young players, who are also both very good. What would be the point? Nothing the Cavaliers get back shows that they "definitely" upgrade...at ANY position.

in-fact, it is more likely that they would be down-grading, as they would not only lose chemistry, but they would lose all cap flexibility, and they would have no young bigs, who could take over when their current older BIGS were no longer options.

So regardless of whether you think Rip is better than West, or vice-versa... the fact is that the trade makes ZERO sense for the Cavaliers.

END OF STORY!

After seven pages, are you guys listening at all?

There is no diversity at all. Everyone is saying you're over-valueing your assets. Are you getting your guage for fair value yet?

First of all, what fan doesn't over-value their team's players? Do I need to quote the thousands of brain-headed ideas that you have posted? We are fans, and this is an opinion based forum... and our opinion (as Cavaliers fans) is every bit as legitimate as any opinion you have.

EVERY YEAR a team trades TRASH for good players...or even all-stars. Want some examples?

2007: Phoenix suns trade 2 1st round draft picks plus Kurt Thomas... for CAP SPACE (a TPE)
07-08: Lakers trade Kwame Brown's expiring contract and 2 draft picks for Pau Gasol
08-09: Milwaukee Bucks trade Mo Williams for DAMON JONES & Ridnour

Do I need to point out that Kwame has been so bad for Detroit, that Curry has said he won't be playing anything but spot-minutes for the rest of the year...or that Dumars already said it was a mistake to sign him?

Do I need to point out that Mo Williams will probably be an all-star, and that Damon Jones hasn't played this year...by mutual agreement? Or that Ridnour has been so bad that CHARLIE BELL has started at PG, despite being a 2?

The Cavaliers front office is looking for a HOME-RUN deal... or they wont make a deal. A home run is not Rip Hamilton... who is a lateral move at-best. Nor is it taking-on New York's crap contracts (JJ) who CANNOT play defense man-to-man...he can only help from the weak-side, with shot-blocking.

EVERY YEAR TEAMS TRADE GOOD PLAYERS for below average, or average players.... they do this because they need to lower costs. And with the economy the way it is, and so many teams losing money, it is in the best interests of the Cavaliers to NOT trade any player unless it is CLEARLY an upgrade in talent, and a reasonable contract for the talent, and a good deal for the TEAM!

If you don't like what this poster has to say, or his opinions...then why have you continuously posted on his thread... he isn't gonna change his views, and other posters will keep coming and will continue to post there views...just as you have.

After seven pages, haven't YOU figured out that the thread will keep going, regardless of what your opinion on the OP's views are?

This is true in general, regardless of who said what on air, it makes no sense to claim that a guys stock would predictably increase after an additional year in college, because teams will happily draft a player like that high and wait that extra year for them to develop.

And regardless of whether it was said on the air or not... or even if NOBODY EVER said it... do you disagree that if JJ Hickson was in this draft, that he wouldn't be a top-3 pick?

Is that your stance? Because if it is, you know very little about basketball.

[Cliff Levingston]

Nocioni + Gooden for Wally + Wright?

That's pretty interesting value-wise, but Wally and Nocioni are very similar players(Wally is actually a better shooter).

and Drew Gooden won't be a Cav ever again, as he's not a smart basketball player. There's a reason we were clamoring to trade him last year, he's an absolute air-head who is really prone to missing his defensive assignments, and screwing up simple plays. Not to mention, he told D. Stevenson(Drews best friend) about the things that LeBron said about the Wizards and Stevenson....which ended up leading to that entire "over-rated, soulaj boy vs Jay-Z" spat.

The point about including Gooden is mostly as salary relief. Yea Wally himself offers that much more but Gooden can score, and he'd be coming off the bench in a limited capacity so Cliff Levingston doesn't think it'd be a big deal. It just depends on how much you'd want Nocioni there who can play the 3/4 and shoot the 3 pretty well.

[heathmalc]

The point about including Gooden is mostly as salary relief. Yea Wally himself offers that much more but Gooden can score, and he'd be coming off the bench in a limited capacity so Cliff Levingston doesn't think it'd be a big deal. It just depends on how much you'd want Nocioni there who can play the 3/4 and shoot the 3 pretty well.

No, Gooden was added as Filler, not as "cap relief," as the Cavaliers don't need cap relief.

They also don't need Nocioni, who has a long contract, to do the same things that Wally already does.

As for Drew... He was traded for a reason: The Cavaliers don't want him!!!! There is nothing that he does that the current line-up cannot already offer.

If Chicago wanted to send Joakim Noah with Nocioni, for Snow and Pavlovic... the Cavaliers would probably at-least listen.

[BBallFreak]

They also don't need Nocioni, who has a long contract, to do the same things that Wally already does.

Hold on, Wally plays tough physical defense now? Wally hustles now? Wally is more than just a one dimensional shooter who can play multiple positions now? Until the answer to any of those questions is yes, Nocioni runs circles around him.

If Chicago wanted to send Joakim Noah with Nocioni, for Snow and Pavlovic... the Cavaliers would probably at-least listen.

The Cavaliers would be morons not to jump all over it. Conversely, the Bulls would have to be smoking something pretty damned powerful to even entertain the notion, much less bring it to the Cavs...

[shrink]

After seven pages, are you guys listening at all?

There is no diversity at all. Everyone is saying you're over-valueing your assets. Are you getting your guage for fair value yet?

First of all, what fan doesn't over-value their team's players?

LOL! You guys are extremely extremely homer, and you want to post a "well, we're just like everyone else" line? Don't you understand the ridicule you get (and you personally from people on your own Cavs board), indicates your extremist homer position?

Do I need to quote the thousands of brain-headed ideas that you have posted? We are fans, and this is an opinion based forum... and our opinion (as Cavaliers fans) is every bit as legitimate as any opinion you have.

Its a discussion board. Your unrealistic, fantasy glorifcation of every Cavs player, and ridicule of every other player, does not form the basis for a rational discussion. When you hold opinions that are completely contrary to all the other posters in the thread, maybe you shouldn't embrace the legitimacy of your own opinion.

And you're welcome to post my "thousands of brain-headed ideas" (whatever that means).

The Cavaliers front office is looking for a HOME-RUN deal... or they wont make a deal. A home run is not Rip Hamilton... who is a lateral move at-best. Nor is it taking-on New York's crap contracts (JJ) who CANNOT play defense man-to-man...he can only help from the weak-side, with shot-blocking.

Do you understand how irrational is is to come to a DISCUSSION board, and complain that you aren't getting home run deals from other posters?

You want to hope someone gives you Kobe? Go ahead. Again, your fantasies are not the basis for a legitimate discussion.

If you don't like what this poster has to say, or his opinions...then why have you continuously posted on his thread... he isn't gonna change his views, and other posters will keep coming and will continue to post there views...just as you have.

After seven pages, haven't YOU figured out that the thread will keep going, regardless of what your opinion on the OP's views are?

If you will note, I have not continuously posted in this thread. I pointed out this time, after seven pages, that your monotone homerism and complaining about everyone else's players demonstrates you are not listening. You are not having a discussion.

I posted once, while you guys continue to humiliate yourself with your homerism page after page.

[Cliff Levingston]

No, Gooden was added as Filler, not as "cap relief," as the Cavaliers don't need cap relief.

Salary relief, expiring contract, whatever you want to call it. He's an expiring deal which is pretty much why he was included.

If Chicago wanted to send Joakim Noah with Nocioni, for Snow and Pavlovic... the Cavaliers would probably at-least listen.

Just like if the Cavs were willing to send LeBron for Deng and Gordon, the Bulls would probably listen as well.

[Prospect Dong]

And regardless of whether it was said on the air or not... or even if NOBODY EVER said it... do you disagree that if JJ Hickson was in this draft, that he wouldn't be a top-3 pick?

Is that your stance? Because if it is, you know very little about basketball.

Well, that's quite a different claim isn't it Heathmalc. The poster I was responding to claimed that a number of scouts projected Hickson in the high lottery as of the date when he was drafted. I can't find any evidence that that was said, which doesn't mean it wasn't, but I've also pointed out that that sort of claim is always and everywhere a stupid thing to say, and that you shouldn't believe anyone who says it.

As to your separate claim that Hickson has, through his post draft-day play, raised himself to the level of a surefire top 3 pick in the upcoming draft, such that a team would happily trade a top-3 pick for him...
Well let's just say that as far as damage-controlling changes of subject go, it wasn't a great success.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

And regardless of whether it was said on the air or not... or even if NOBODY EVER said it... do you disagree that if JJ Hickson was in this draft, that he wouldn't be a top-3 pick?

Is that your stance? Because if it is, you know very little about basketball.

Well, that's quite a different claim isn't it Heathmalc. The poster I was responding to claimed that a number of scouts projected Hickson in the high lottery as of the date when he was drafted. I can't find any evidence that that was said, which doesn't mean it wasn't, but I've also pointed out that that sort of claim is always and everywhere a stupid thing to say, and that you shouldn't believe anyone who says it.

As to your separate claim that Hickson has, through his post draft-day play, raised himself to the level of a surefire top 3 pick in the upcoming draft, such that a team would happily trade a top-3 pick for him...
Well let's just say that as far as damage-controlling changes of subject go, it wasn't a great success.

Actually, I never said anything about it being "the day he was drafted"....What I was really referring to was the reaction of some scouts/NBA experts after JJ performed so well in the summer-league. I didn't say that either, but I NEVER said "as of the day he was drafted"
So, you're basically putting words in my mouth.

[Prospect Dong]

Actually, I never said anything about it being "the day he was drafted"....What I was really referring to was the reaction of some scouts/NBA experts after JJ performed so well in the summer-league. So, you're basically putting words in my mouth.

Really? Because this doesn't sound like "some guys said he'd played awesome in summer league":

Note: He was projected to be a high lottery pick this year by scouts if he would have stayed in school

But as far as I can tell what the scouts (or "scouts/NBA experts", as you're now putting it) actually said was:

"Hickson looked like a top-10 talent in Vegas summer league"

So I think we might have found out who's putting words in peoples' mouths.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

It doesn't sound like "as of the day he was drafted" either...

And I just edited my previous post to add in that I never did say that about the summer-league, which I didn't...but I also NEVER EVER EVER said "as of the day he was drafted"...so I find it finny that you're manipulating my quote to mean what you want it to mean.

You wouldn't happen to be Stephen. A. Smith? Would you?

[Prospect Dong]

I'm not even clear what you're denying any more. I assumed, and I'm inclined to go on assuming until you get around to posting a link to these "nba experts", that if "scouts" were "projecting" where a player would have gone in a different draft they were doing it more or less at draft time, because you don't generally assess an NBA player by talking about where they would have been picked if they'd stayed in school another year. I've never really heard that done after draft time. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you've heard it either. I think you've heard:

"Hickson looked like a top-10 talent in Vegas summer league"

But I'm open to being proved wrong on that one. I note none of you seems to be in a hurry to do that though.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

http://mindofmullin.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... ckson.html

At the bottom "potential lottery pick"

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/draft/1333433

compares to:

"likely been a lottery pick"

[SportsInfoBar]

They also don't need Nocioni, who has a long contract, to do the same things that Wally already does.

Hold on, Wally plays tough physical defense now? Wally hustles now? Wally is more than just a one dimensional shooter who can play multiple positions now? Until the answer to any of those questions is yes, Nocioni runs circles around him.

I am just convinced some of you just don't watch basketball. or at least enough of the players you talk about. You get one impression of a player and it must stick for your life. Wally DOES play tough physical defense, he is just slow. Wally absolutely hustles, and he boxes out very well for his size, which leads to others getting rebounds at times. He is not one dimensional on offense, he can post up certain players, he can shoot the three and if you would like to pop in the orlando game Q2 and watch him abuse Hedo you are more than welcome. He will surprise you as slow as he is how many shots he can get in the paint.

Last night he started at the 2 for us and he threw in 15 points 4rebounds and a couple of assists (hell just a bucket away from being truly great and being in "Rips Realm"). He should be a 3 based on his foot speed, but we have a pretty good 3 already. And he DOES some spot minutes at the 4 as well depending on the match ups. One thing is Wally is pound for pound the strongest Cav (coming from my neighbor who is actually an assistant for the Cavs, not coming from me).

Wally's PER is 12.14+ True shooting percentage 59% Three 41%

Nocioni's PER 10.82 TS% 53.9 Three 37% (heck he shoot just 40% from the field!!!) (I will be honest, it surprised me how poor a non three point shooter he really is, because the times I have seen him it seems like he hits everything, but the numbers DO NOT LIE)

I don't think any circles are being run around either one. If you look over the last 4 or 5 years Wally has consistently posted better numbers.

I know we are not getting a steal of deal for Wally, so I would rather just keep him. He is going to be very valuable to us in the playoffs.

[Prospect Dong]

http://mindofmullin.blogspot.com/2008/03/prospect-profile-jj-hickson.html

At the bottom "potential lottery pick"

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/draft/1333433

compares to:

"likely been a lottery pick"

ok, so you dug up two guys saying before the draft, that Hickson might have risen into the lottery had he stayed another year. So not only have you got no one talking high lottery, you also haven't got anyone talking about his summer league play. So we're back where we started:

I never really understand claims like this. You simply can't look at guys and say - "sure, he's a 28th, maybe 29th pick this season, but if he stays one more year he'll be in the high lottery". NBA teams simply aren't so impatient that they'll pass up lottery-quality talent just because it needs an extra year of seasoning. Not being ready to contribute right now will hurt your stock, sure, but it doesn't lead to top-5 talent being projected in the second round, or picked at #19.

That doesn't mean guys can't have a great season and radically change their projected draft position, but if the scouts knew that a guy was going to improve like that they'd pick them based on that potential.

Do you remember reading that, even a little bit?

[InBoobieWeTrust]

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=1447

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... ies-080715


Regardless, I'll take the word "high" out of the original post. Then we can end this dumb argument and get back to the real gist of the thread.

[shrink]

Last night he started at the 2 for us and he threw in 15 points 4rebounds and a couple of assists (hell just a bucket away from being truly great and being in "Rips Realm").

And one time in Band Camp, he scored 22 points and ate three egg salad sandwiches in under two minutes.

.. and the game before he scored 2 pts. I don't see those games in Rip's Realm. Do you?

When are you going to realize that using ultra-small samples to make your point, and hiding all of the general things Wally does (or more correctly, "doesn't do") is kind of a silly way to make a point. Everyone knows your homerism doesn't allow you to admit any failings for Wally, so its impossible to take you seriously.

One thing is Wally is pound for pound the strongest Cav (coming from my neighbor who is actually an assistant for the Cavs, not coming from me).

Do you know what pound-for-pound means? Allen Iverson may be the strongest pound-for-pound guy on the Pistons, but that doesn't mean he should be playing PF. Wally is a slow, 6' 7" guy, that any even marginal PF can either shoot over, or go around.

Wally's a good shooter, but he has his flaws too, and until you're willing to admit that he does, you're never going to come up with a reasonable interpretation of who Wally is, and what he can, or can't, do for the Cavs in the future.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Well, the thing about that, is that Wally weighs 240(same as Ben Wallace), so...the pound-for-pound thing actually makes him a reasonable defensive option at the 4 for a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

Wally's biggest flaw is simple, he is just extremely slow, and he is not a good ball-handler.

He's a good spot up shooter, with the ability to get the ball, out-muscle most NBA wing players, get to a comfortable spot on the floor, and knock down a shot(that is his limit on creating offense).

He doesn't have much to his game, but what he does bring in 20 minutes to the Cavs, along with the chemistry he has developed with the team(Cleveland is the first place where Wally's teammates actually LIKE him), just means that marginal upgrades aren't something the Cavs will consider is trading Wally. Now, big, clear, un doubtful defensive AND offensive upgrades are things that should not be thrown aside just because of Wally's weight-lifting, and ass-slapping skills.

[heathmalc]

No... Cavs fans are not wanting other fans to come in and offer "home run" deals to us....that wont ever happen. The point of me bringing this up (The home run specific trade), is because that is what the Cavaliers' GM is looking for (according to a respected source on RCF). Therefor, Cavs fans are trying to put together trade ideas based on what little information is fed to them through the media, and people with knowledge of the situation.

As for Wally... Cavs fans are WELL AWARE of every flaw Wally has. However, because we actually watch him, we also know his values. As for Wally being a hustler, and physical defender... if you say he isn't, then your knowledge of basketball is likely the same as your knowledge Molecular mechanics....zero.

The original poster made a very simple thread, asking what other would offer. When the offers are given, then he has said whether or not he liked the proposal. The fact that some people don't like that he didn't accept their offer(s), has led to ridicule, and has taken this thread away from it's intended purpose. The truth is that you who post argumentative statements about what a player may or may not be worth, while belittling what others believe...are hypocrites. It doesn't matter if a person believes that Wally is worth Chris Bosh... or if a person believes that Wally is junk... everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they can back up their claim if, and however they choose to; and if anyone doesn't like it.... that is why there is a little box in the top-right of your screen, with an "X" in it... so you can close the page.

I advise you to not read what I, or anyone else says, that you don't like... or deal with it.

That said... Nocioni's contract makes him an albatross for any team that takes him on... so since the Cavaliers OBVIOUSLY do not need him (They do lead the division by 12+ games), then there is NO REASON for them to even consider taking him in trade...unless there is incentive. Giving away a large expiring contract, of a productive player...is not incentive.

Case closed.