CLE Outbids for Amare - Cheap! CLE-PHO-MIN. POR option too

[rjgraca]

Yes, a lottery team could trump, but they would be renting Amare since he has stated his desire to go to a contender and published reports have him liking Chicago, Cleveland and Miami. If Portland decides to give up the house for Amare...that could happen too since they are up and coming contenders.

With the economy as bad as it is and the NBA and the Players Union already talking about the next CBA, an expiring becomes even more valuable saving teams luxury tax payments by owners already suffering from the Real Estate and Banking Collapses to their fortunes. NBA even layed off employees and gate receipts are not really increasing and revenues are flat to falling for some teams which means you can't count on the Salary cap to increase next year or 2010 which would probably make the luxury tax threshold lower too.

[bringinhinkie]

Yes, a lottery team could trump, but they would be renting Amare since he has stated his desire to go to a contender and published reports have him liking Chicago, Cleveland and Miami. If Portland decides to give up the house for Amare...that could happen too since they are up and coming contenders.

With the economy as bad as it is and the NBA and the Players Union already talking about the next CBA, an expiring becomes even more valuable saving teams luxury tax payments by owners already suffering from the Real Estate and Banking Collapses to their fortunes. NBA even layed off employees and gate receipts are not really increasing and revenues are flat to falling for some teams which means you can't count on the Salary cap to increase next year or 2010 which would probably make the luxury tax threshold lower too.

yea im not saying a lottery team would, but im just pointing out how weak this offer is.. and you bring up portland, really if you compare what they can give to this offer, i mean they could just say bayless/outlaw/lafrentz(expiring) for him, which people would say phx wouldnt do but it blows the sh*t out of expirings,hickson and pretty much a 2nd rounder

[Kosar86]

ijj hickson = unproven and hasn't showed much of anything/played enough to gain any value at all


ib4tl

He's shown more than bayless.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

i cant believe this thread has so many responses.. jj hickson expirings and like the 28th pick in the draft for amare stoudamire? as if any lottery team couldnt just offer their pick and expirings and trump it, or any team with even even 1-2 good young players to trade..

28th pick = garbage, teams sell picks in that range and even higher every year
jj hickson = unproven and hasn't showed much of anything/played enough to gain any value at all
expirings are what they are, and almost every team has them

ib4tl

Not like you're biased or anything, I mean, I understand that when you look at this..and see Bron and Amare POSSIBLY being teammates...that all your hopes and aspirations for Bron in 2010 go completely out the window.

Why would a lottery team rent STAT by giving up a lottery pick and expirings? Makes no sense...

almost everyone has expirings, but not $20 million worth of them...

and why would Portland trade Lafrentz, Bayless, and Outlaw for STAT? I agree, the offer trumps Clevelands...but the Suns might not want to send STAT to Portland for a few reasons(division, darius miles e-mail come to mind)....and Portland gives up a young PG prospect(when they're weak at PG), a young talented wing player(when they're weak at SF_ and a gigantic expiring that they could use to IMPROVE their wing or PG play... all to get Amare, who is better than LMA..but you still have LMA, Oden, Pryzbilla....so, in essence...your team doesn't even get full value out of STAT, and it makes the upcoming decisions about a lot of Portland's young stars a lot harder for Portland, if they have to then worry about re-signing STAT along with Roy, Oden, Rudy, Aldridge, etc.

[bringinhinkie]

ijj hickson = unproven and hasn't showed much of anything/played enough to gain any value at all


ib4tl

He's shown more than bayless.

there numbers are very similar, hicksons may be a lil better.. but bayless has already showed flashes of what he will bring in the future(23pt game, 19 pt games, couple 14pt games whereas hicksons career high is 14) and he is on a team with ridiculous depth..

the reality of the situation though is that bayless has much more value than hickson

[InBoobieWeTrust]

ijj hickson = unproven and hasn't showed much of anything/played enough to gain any value at all


ib4tl

He's shown more than bayless.

there numbers are very similar, hicksons may be a lil better.. but bayless has already showed flashes of what he will bring in the future(23pt game, 19 pt games, couple 14pt games whereas hicksons career high is 14) and he is on a team with ridiculous depth..

the reality of the situation though is that bayless has much more value than hickson

Guards without a jumpshot have more value than athletic big-men with sky-high potential?
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

The only real advantage Portland has is including Outlaw to make it seem like some sort of a decent basketball move, and the fact that Lafrentz will get 80% of the rest of his contract paid for by insurance. However, that's still not that much of an advantage.

[bringinhinkie]

i cant believe this thread has so many responses.. jj hickson expirings and like the 28th pick in the draft for amare stoudamire? as if any lottery team couldnt just offer their pick and expirings and trump it, or any team with even even 1-2 good young players to trade..

28th pick = garbage, teams sell picks in that range and even higher every year
jj hickson = unproven and hasn't showed much of anything/played enough to gain any value at all
expirings are what they are, and almost every team has them

ib4tl

Not like you're biased or anything, I mean, I understand that when you look at this..and see Bron and Amare POSSIBLY being teammates...that all your hopes and aspirations for Bron in 2010 go completely out the window.

Why would a lottery team rent STAT by giving up a lottery pick and expirings? Makes no sense...

almost everyone has expirings, but not $20 million worth of them...

and why would Portland trade Lafrentz, Bayless, and Outlaw for STAT? I agree, the offer trumps Clevelands...but the Suns might not want to send STAT to Portland for a few reasons(division, darius miles e-mail come to mind)....and Portland gives up a young PG prospect(when they're weak at PG), a young talented wing player(when they're weak at SF_ and a gigantic expiring that they could use to IMPROVE their wing or PG play... all to get Amare, who is better than LMA..but you still have LMA, Oden, Pryzbilla....so, in essence...your team doesn't even get full value out of STAT, and it makes the upcoming decisions about a lot of Portland's young stars a lot harder for Portland, if they have to then worry about re-signing STAT along with Roy, Oden, Rudy, Aldridge, etc.

Im biased? First off, my thinking the cavs wont get him because i want bron in 2010 has NOTHING to do with it.. they just don't have sh*t outside of lebron to trade.. i mean its not even close, jj hickson, a late first, and expiring is not getting you amare stoudamire.. there are ~29 teams that can offer better, the cavs outside of lebron have probably the least assets to trade in the entire nba..

second off, if lebron wants to come to ny, hes going to go, amare stoudamire is not going stop him.. him going to ny would be 100% ego/greatness driven, his teamates won't have anything to do with it.. not to mention, amare is not going to put the cavs over the top anyway, its not like he is bringing steve nash with him, he might even make them worse - i mean they are a 60win team already

and i didn't say portland would trade for him, just as i said the lottery teams, my point is there are so many teams with a ton of young talent that trumps the sh*t out of this cleveland offer..

this offer is so off is insane, you cavs fans are in wayyyy over your heads on this one, not even remotely close

and if you have read my posts, all i do is hate on lebron so why would i come in here and shoot down this trade just because i think itd keep the knicks from lebron? do i think he will go to the knicks? yes i do, and i base this off of his ego/personality/lack of loyalty.. would i want him to? obviously, who wouldnt?.. do i like lebron james? no i absolutely dislike him more than most of you dislike nate robinson, and if we dont get him, im not going to lose any sleep

[loserX]

This is what I keep thinking when I see Minnesota getting a draft pick and dumping Brian Cardinal in the same trade.

In yesterday's Marion deal, the Heat got a better player/fit whose value wasn't at its peak (much like Miller) but took on an extra year of big salary (much like Cleveland would be, and their problems are doubled by the tax)...but it was the Raptors who had to throw in a draft pick and also take back some mitigating salary. Doesn't bode well for the recent valuations of Miller/Cardinal.

Loser X, for the foreseeable future, I think we are going to see a greater divide between the wealthier and less wealthy owners with regard to trade parameters. The less wealthy owners are going to pay a heavier price for the past sins of their GM's than those owners with more money. Like Shrink said, Glen Taylor is one of the wealthier owners in the NBA. Mr. Taylor, God Bless him, has always been willing and able to spend what it takes to win. The key difference between any Miller/Cardinal proposal and any Amare deal right now is finances. Taylor is not facing the financial constraints Sarver is currently facing with the Suns. It is still navigable it's just that there will be significantly fewer destinations for moving a bad contract than in years past.

Agreed with most of your points...but the Wolves are the ones giving UP the bad contract in Cardinal here. If Taylor is going to use his finances to his advantage, he should be taking ON bad salary for sweetener. In this case, it's the Wolves giving up long-term salary (relative to an expiring, at least) and yet getting it sweetened with a draft pick.

How much is Miller's contribution to the Cavs going to be worth next year? In a straight Miller/Cardinal for Wally swap, the Cavs are going to be paying an extra $33M next year after taxes. THIRTY-THREE MILLION. Is Miller worth that to any team? Maybe the Cavs take a chance on Miller's abilities and do it...but why would they then give up a pick to Minnesota?

[bringinhinkie]

Guards without a jumpshot have more value than athletic big-men with sky-high potential?
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

The only real advantage Portland has is including Outlaw to make it seem like some sort of a decent basketball move, and the fact that Lafrentz will get 80% of the rest of his contract paid for by insurance. However, that's still not that much of an advantage.

wow, overrating jj hickson much? there is no way you can convince me he has more value in a trade than bayless.. jj frickin hickson, the 28-29th pick, and expirings is not netting you an all nba first teamer, sorry

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Guards without a jumpshot have more value than athletic big-men with sky-high potential?
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

The only real advantage Portland has is including Outlaw to make it seem like some sort of a decent basketball move, and the fact that Lafrentz will get 80% of the rest of his contract paid for by insurance. However, that's still not that much of an advantage.

wow, overrating jj hickson much? there is no way you can convince me he has more value in a trade than bayless.. jj frickin hickson, the 28-29th pick, and expirings is not netting you an all nba first teamer, sorry

Big men have more value than guards. That's just the NBA.

Im biased? First off, my thinking the cavs wont get him because i want bron in 2010 has NOTHING to do with it.. they just don't have sh*t outside of lebron to trade.. i mean its not even close, jj hickson, a late first, and expiring is not getting you amare stoudamire.. there are ~29 teams that can offer better, the cavs outside of lebron have probably the least assets to trade in the entire nba..

second off, if lebron wants to come to ny, hes going to go, amare stoudamire is not going stop him.. him going to ny would be 100% ego/greatness driven, his teamates won't have anything to do with it.. not to mention, amare is not going to put the cavs over the top anyway, its not like he is bringing steve nash with him, he might even make them worse - i mean they are a 60win team already

and i didn't say portland would trade for him, just as i said the lottery teams, my point is there are so many teams with a ton of young talent that trumps the sh*t out of this cleveland offer..

this offer is so off is insane, you cavs fans are in wayyyy over your heads on this one, not even remotely close

and if you have read my posts, all i do is hate on lebron so why would i come in here and shoot down this trade just because i think itd keep the knicks from lebron? do i think he will go to the knicks? yes i do, and i base this off of his ego/personality/lack of loyalty.. would i want him to? obviously, who wouldnt?.. do i like lebron james? no i absolutely dislike him more than most of you dislike nate robinson, and if we dont get him, im not going to lose any sleepp

The lottery teams aren't going to outbid the Cavs, because Amare will flat out tell them that he's not signing in *insert random destined to be terrible lottery team here*. They're not going to rent him for 1 1/3 seasons.

At this point,lets assume it's pretty much a two-horse race between Chicago and Cleveland. Let's make a checklist.

Saves $arver more $- Cavs
More talent in return- Chicago


That leaves two intangibles...Steve Kerr, and Amare Stoudemire. Kerr and Ferry are extremely good friends, maybe a favor is in order? I doubt it, but we've seen it happen before in the NBA..so it's possible.

Now the question is Amare. That's the BIGGEST question. If he want's to be the MAN, become a human highlight reel, and lose to Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston in the playoffs for the forseeable future, then he will go to Chicago. (he'll tell Cleveland he wont sign an extension)

If he wants to win, or play with arguably the best player in the world, then he will go to Cleveland. (he'll tell Chi he won't sign an extension)

[bringinhinkie]

Guards without a jumpshot have more value than athletic big-men with sky-high potential?
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

The only real advantage Portland has is including Outlaw to make it seem like some sort of a decent basketball move, and the fact that Lafrentz will get 80% of the rest of his contract paid for by insurance. However, that's still not that much of an advantage.

wow, overrating jj hickson much? there is no way you can convince me he has more value in a trade than bayless.. jj frickin hickson, the 28-29th pick, and expirings is not netting you an all nba first teamer, sorry

Big men have more value than guards. That's just the NBA.

that saying is in reference to legit stud centers & pfs like duncans/shaqs/hakeems/ewings/etc not 6'9" dudes that were drafted 19th and barely get minutes playing behind anderson varejao

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Varejao is our back-up center, Hickson is a PF. He doesn't get minutes because he's a rookie, and our coach is Mike Brown, takes time to learn a defensive system as a rookie.

and I'm not saying Hickson has more value than Mayo and Rose, I'm saying he has more than Bayless, who is barely getting minutes behind Steve Blake and Sergio Rodriguez.

Lafrentz' contract > Wally's contract
Hickson > Bayless (value wise)
Outlaw > Cleveland 1st

I agree, Portland's deal beats Clevelands, but the problem is...Portland hasn't made an offer, is in the same division as Phx, sent out that e-mail that a lot of people resent them for, and they have no reason to even make the offer, considering they get weaker at two weak positions to get a little stronger at one strong position, and they pay a boatload of money to do it.

[rpa]

At this point, it's pretty much a two-horse race between Chicago and Cleveland.

That's just flat out delusional. Yeah, because we don't hear any rumors about other teams means that it's down to those 2 teams--as if it hasn't been proven over and over again that most of the "rumors" that the public finds out about are complete **** to begin with.

It doesn't exactly help your argument when there are at least 4 others teams in the East ALONE that could offer the same amount of money/cap savings as the Cavs could and all could offer a better incentive than a low level prospect and a very late 1st rounder.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

At this point, it's pretty much a two-horse race between Chicago and Cleveland.

That's just flat out delusional. Yeah, because we don't hear any rumors about other teams means that it's down to those 2 teams--as if it hasn't been proven over and over again that most of the "rumors" that the public finds out about are complete **** to begin with.

It doesn't exactly help your argument when there are at least 4 others teams in the East ALONE that could offer the same amount of money/cap savings as the Cavs could and all could offer a better incentive than a low level prospect and a very late 1st rounder.

"low-level prospect" is just as delusional.

and I'll change my post to say "at this point, let's assume", if it'll make you happy...if semantics is your thing.

and I'll agree, if Detroit gets into a bidding war, they'll get Amare..but I think they're after Bosh..I think that's Joe D's plan.

but afaik, Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit are the only east teams I could see him signing an extension with, all for various reasons.

[rpa]

"low-level prospect" is just as delusional.

Wait, you think that we're supposed to dub the 19th pick in last years draft who's averaging 4.4/2.7 as some kind of a high level prospect? Really...you can't be serious. You're basing this on what, exactly? His great summer league that causes you Cavs fans to proclaim that "so and so analyst said after the summer league that Hickson would have been a top 5 pick if he had stayed at school 1 more year"? His so-so play? This is just laughable. In no way has Hickson shown enough to be considered anything more than a low level prospect. At this point he holds pretty much the same value as where he was picked: mid-late 1st rounder. Which is? Drumroll please ... a low level prospect.

and I'll change my post to say "at this point, let's assume", if it'll make you happy...if semantics is your thing.

It's more than semantics when your entire argument for getting Amare to Cleveland is based on the belief that there are only 1 or 2 others teams making bids for him.

and I'll agree, if Detroit gets into a bidding war, they'll get Amare..but I think they're after Bosh..I think that's Joe D's plan.

Detroit could legitimately make a play for both Amare AND Bosh actually.

but afaik, Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit are the only east teams I could see him signing an extension with, all for various reasons.

Uh, New York ring a bell? Further, being a Kings fan and knowing about the whole "he won't resign with you" crap that other fans seem to throw out all the time I think that stance of "he won't resign with any of these teams" is just flat out naive. By making those kinds of statements you're basically intimating that you know more or know better than most GMs. If, for example, Geoff Petrie thought he had absolutely no chance to resign Amare in 2 years (as you indicate) then why would he even call up to make an offer?

[bringinhinkie]

Varejao is our back-up center, Hickson is a PF. He doesn't get minutes because he's a rookie, and our coach is Mike Brown, takes time to learn a defensive system as a rookie.

and I'm not saying Hickson has more value than Mayo and Rose, I'm saying he has more than Bayless, who is barely getting minutes behind Steve Blake and Sergio Rodriguez.

Lafrentz' contract > Wally's contract
Hickson > Bayless (value wise)
Outlaw > Cleveland 1st

I agree, Portland's deal beats Clevelands, but the problem is...Portland hasn't made an offer, is in the same division as Phx, sent out that e-mail that a lot of people resent them for, and they have no reason to even make the offer, considering they get weaker at two weak positions to get a little stronger at one strong position, and they pay a boatload of money to do it.

lol man there is no way you can convince me hickson has more value than bayless.. i mean look at the draft itself, bayless was projected top 5, and slipped to 11th, hickson was 19th.. if by your standard "big men have more value", why was bayless picked 11th and hickson 19th? i mean they are both putting up mediocre stats (bayless 6 2 1, hickson 4 n 3), so its not like hickson has gained some value that bayless hasn't.. and also, bayless is buried more behind roy than blake, he is a scoring guard and more of a 2 than a 1

bayless has much more value, i dont see where you are coming from on this one.. if cleveland gets amare, its in a 3 way and they are getting 2 teams worth of bad contracts dumped on them with big ben also going out.. they just simply do not have what it takes to get him straight up

and there are more than 2 teams interested, believe me.. i know the knicks arent high on him, but if it takes this lil of value? theyd jump all over it

[bringinhinkie]

"low-level prospect" is just as delusional.

Wait, you think that we're supposed to dub the 19th pick in last years draft who's averaging 4.4/2.7 as some kind of a high level prospect? Really...you can't be serious. You're basing this on what, exactly? His great summer league that causes you Cavs fans to proclaim that "so and so analyst said after the summer league that Hickson would have been a top 5 pick if he had stayed at school 1 more year"? His so-so play? This is just laughable. In no way has Hickson shown enough to be considered anything more than a low level prospect. At this point he holds pretty much the same value as where he was picked: mid-late 1st rounder. Which is? Drumroll please ... a low level prospect.

and I'll change my post to say "at this point, let's assume", if it'll make you happy...if semantics is your thing.

It's more than semantics when your entire argument for getting Amare to Cleveland is based on the belief that there are only 1 or 2 others teams making bids for him.

and I'll agree, if Detroit gets into a bidding war, they'll get Amare..but I think they're after Bosh..I think that's Joe D's plan.

Detroit could legitimately make a play for both Amare AND Bosh actually.

but afaik, Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit are the only east teams I could see him signing an extension with, all for various reasons.

Uh, New York ring a bell? Further, being a Kings fan and knowing about the whole "he won't resign with you" crap that other fans seem to throw out all the time I think that stance of "he won't resign with any of these teams" is just flat out naive. By making those kinds of statements you're basically intimating that you know more or know better than most GMs. If, for example, Geoff Petrie thought he had absolutely no chance to resign Amare in 2 years (as you indicate) then why would he even call up to make an offer?

ill bump this for ya, i posted mine right after yours and started a new page.. my b

[SportsInfoBar]

Guards without a jumpshot have more value than athletic big-men with sky-high potential?
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

The only real advantage Portland has is including Outlaw to make it seem like some sort of a decent basketball move, and the fact that Lafrentz will get 80% of the rest of his contract paid for by insurance. However, that's still not that much of an advantage.

wow, overrating jj hickson much? there is no way you can convince me he has more value in a trade than bayless.. jj frickin hickson, the 28-29th pick, and expirings is not netting you an all nba first teamer, sorry

It is not our fault you haven't watched enough Hickson to know better.... I am one of the crazy Cavs fans that does NOT want Amare. He plays no defense, he is a poor rebounder for his size. He does not play in the post, he is a jump shooter (and yes a very good one) Phoenix played just as well without him a few years back when he was out. He is a "stats" player, he doesn't make his team better. He is NOT a superstar...to be a superstar you should be able to play both ends of the floor. He is a ME first player...wasn't happy playing with Marion, and now with Shaq....I want nothing to do with him on this team.

Your Portland offer is dumb on many levels... it is noted that Portland's weakest positions are PG and SF...so IF Bayless and Outlaw were so great why would they trade them for someone who plays the same position as one of their best players?? If PG is Portland's weakness why wouldn't they want to keep this up and coming superstar they have in Bayless? Outlaw has been in the league a while now, he is what he is....an average small forward. Bayless has upside, but no more than Hickson at this point. I am guessing if Phoenix is trading their PF, they would probably want one back...but again that is just logical......

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Wait, you think that we're supposed to dub the 19th pick in last years draft who's averaging 4.4/2.7 as some kind of a high level prospect? Really...you can't be serious. You're basing this on what, exactly? His great summer league that causes you Cavs fans to proclaim that "so and so analyst said after the summer league that Hickson would have been a top 5 pick if he had stayed at school 1 more year"? His so-so play? This is just laughable. In no way has Hickson shown enough to be considered anything more than a low level prospect. At this point he holds pretty much the same value as where he was picked: mid-late 1st rounder. Which is? Drumroll please ... a low level prospect.

Now, I don't expect him to be a high level prospect, not a low level either, maybe a mid-level prospect with high-prospect potential? Oh, and scouts were saying he'd be a lottery pick if he had stayed in school, except they said it before the DRAFT, much less the summer league. There's a reason multiple analysts have called him the "sleeper" or "steal" of the draft. "So-so play"? Well, he's not getting enough PT to do anything aside from speculate on his potential. That's because he's a rookie on a championship contender, not because he's a "low level prospect".

It's more than semantics when your entire argument for getting Amare to Cleveland is based on the belief that there are only 1 or 2 others teams making bids for him.

I'm not the only one who has said it's a two horse race.

Detroit could legitimately make a play for both Amare AND Bosh actually.

I doubt it, maybe Boozer/Bosh, but two max-contracts would be too much, especially since they'll need to pay Stuckey, Tayshaun, etc etc and fill out a roster.

Uh, New York ring a bell? Further, being a Kings fan and knowing about the whole "he won't resign with you" crap that other fans seem to throw out all the time I think that stance of "he won't resign with any of these teams" is just flat out naive. By making those kinds of statements you're basically intimating that you know more or know better than most GMs. If, for example, Geoff Petrie thought he had absolutely no chance to resign Amare in 2 years (as you indicate) then why would he even call up to make an offer?

They will make offers, but they won't make big enough offers to outbid any of the teams he WOULD re-sign with. And no, I'm not saying I know more, but Amare does, and Amare's agent has said that Amare would like a say in where he's going. That's gotta hold some weight with both the Suns and any team willing to make an offer.

and as for NY, it's a possibility..if they give up Gallo or Chandler in the deal, both things that I don't think they'd want to do if they feel they can be legit players for Amare in 2010.

[SportsInfoBar]

At this point, it's pretty much a two-horse race between Chicago and Cleveland.

That's just flat out delusional. Yeah, because we don't hear any rumors about other teams means that it's down to those 2 teams--as if it hasn't been proven over and over again that most of the "rumors" that the public finds out about are complete **** to begin with.

It doesn't exactly help your argument when there are at least 4 others teams in the East ALONE that could offer the same amount of money/cap savings as the Cavs could and all could offer a better incentive than a low level prospect and a very late 1st rounder.

"low-level prospect" is just as delusional.

and I'll change my post to say "at this point, let's assume", if it'll make you happy...if semantics is your thing.

and I'll agree, if Detroit gets into a bidding war, they'll get Amare..but I think they're after Bosh..I think that's Joe D's plan.

but afaik, Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit are the only east teams I could see him signing an extension with, all for various reasons.

What does Detroit have to offer that is so great? AI or Wallace for the expriring, what young players do they have that are any good?....I said earlier I am still waiting on Maxiel and Amir to actually be anything, and we are FOUR years in for both....what else do they have? Their young players not producing is why they are so bad now (well that and trading Billups for AI) Do you really think Hickson won't be light years better than these two once he has four years in?