Simple NJ - SAC (Martin and Harris)

[princeofpalace]

No. I could swore I saw Kings fans willing to ditch Martin for pennies shortly after Tyreke

Martin when healthy is an efficient 27 point scorer (Im amazed at how many times he can get to the line being primarily a jump shooter). Martin is elite in one regard whereas Harris is just above average in every aspect of the game. I like Harris but I'd love to get my hands on Kevin Martin..

To be fair, with the dynamics with the Kings, Martin can't score 27 points consistently. Well, he does not need to. He is more of a 24-25 points efficient scorer when healthy.

Yeah I meant 25 but still my point remains the same.

And yeah Martin is injury prone its not like Harris is always healthy either

[KF10]

Yeah I meant 25 but still my point remains the same.

And yeah Martin is injury prone its not like Harris is always healthy either

Agreed.

[Trader_Joe]

Sorry.

I'm sorry, half way through the season, Sacramento has:
12% winning percentage with Martin in 22% of the games they have played this season
44% winning percentage without Martin in 78% of the games they have played this season

Feel free to expand.

I'm pretty sure everything was illustrated to you the other day when rpa took the time and told you what was the situation with Martin and Evans/Kings in general.

Was that before or after the Charlotte game where:

Kevin Martin goes out in the 3rd quarter with 4:09 to play, Beno Udrih comes in.

The score is 82-58 after Wallace makes a free throw, during which the substitution took place.
It is the largest lead for Charlotte of the night.

The Kings then end the game on a 45-23 run without Martin back in the game and lose by two points 105-103.

[Bac2Basics]

I used to be big on the Kings trading for Harris, but I've cooled on that lately.
I still like the guy, and he could use a change of scenary, but not sure the fit makes as much sense as I previously thought.

[KF10]

Are you serious? This was already explained in the same thread that you and rpa discussed about.

To reiterate what happened, Westphal finally gotten the right combination lineup. And luckily for the Kings sake, Gerald Wallace (who was pwning the Kings throughout the game) was injured due to Nocioni's inadvertent hit to the ankle, and he was out for a while. (not completely though) That's when the Kings made their huge run. But when Wallace came back during the 4th quarter. It was too much Bobcats. Wallace presence neutralized the Kings in the lasting minutes of the game.

[Trader_Joe]

Are you serious? This was already explained in the same thread that you and rpa discussed about.

To reiterate what happened, Westphal finally gotten the right combination lineup. And luckily for the Kings sake, Gerald Wallace (who was pwning the Kings throughout the game) was injured due to Nocioni's inadvertent hit to the ankle, and he was out for a while. (not completely though) That's when the Kings made their huge run. But when Wallace came back during the 4th quarter. It was too much Bobcats. Wallace presence neutralized the Kings in the lasting minutes of the game.

The line-up that worked did not include Martin, correct?
Why not?

[stock01234]

agreed that Evans and Martin are not playing good together, so SAC is better of trading Martin. However they should get more for Martin, than just Harris.

[rpa]

Are you serious? This was already explained in the same thread that you and rpa discussed about.

To reiterate what happened, Westphal finally gotten the right combination lineup. And luckily for the Kings sake, Gerald Wallace (who was pwning the Kings throughout the game) was injured due to Nocioni's inadvertent hit to the ankle, and he was out for a while. (not completely though) That's when the Kings made their huge run. But when Wallace came back during the 4th quarter. It was too much Bobcats. Wallace presence neutralized the Kings in the lasting minutes of the game.

The line-up that worked did not include Martin, correct?
Why not?

Because Martin was cold? You're walking a really slippery slope here. You're implying (basically) that anytime a team goes on a run without one of their best players that that player is, in some form or another, expendable because the team was able to make that run without him.

Last night the Kings went on a big run against the Hawks to go up double digits. Tyreke Evans was not on the floor. Does this somehow make Evans expendable? Does it tell us he has a negative impact on the court? Of course not.

[KF10]

The line-up that worked did not include Martin, correct?
Why not?

It simply did not worked. Martin was ice cold up to that point. And Westphal has the tendency to mix around with lineups throughout the game if they are not working whether or not if Martin or Evans are not in the right combination of lineup, Westphal could care less individual-wise. He wants the team to win.

And again, the Kings were lucky that the Bobcats took Wallace out of the game to initiate the key run.

[vincecarter4pres]

I wonder if a move like Ray Allen and a couple 1st's for Kevin Martin and one of Noce or Udrih will happen before the deadline?
Martin obviously has more value then a salary dump, but when attached to a bad contract the value goes way down. IMO(just my opinion), he doesn't fit with Evans or this team and would be suited better as a 2nd or third option on a contender like Boston. I think he would thrive and this would free up an enormous amount of caproom for Sacto. The value is a little thin, but I'm saying...

[rpa]

^ A lot of problems with that idea.

First, those 1st rounders would be awful.
Second, if the Kings actually like what they're getting from Udrih and he's neither a cap killer nor costing them a boatload from a luxury tax hit, what's the point in paying a great deal to get rid of him?
Third, it sounds like the Kings think they can get 2011 expirings for Nocioni worst case (best case is 2010 expirings or a combination of 2010 & 2011 expirings).
Lastly, and most important of all, having cap room isn't too value to the Kings. Would it be nice to dump Nocioni and have a good chunk of room? Of course--because the Kings could almost certainly use that cap space to a player (or asset) that has more value than Nocioni. However, when you're sacrificing Martin for that cap space the same can't be said. The Kings would have 0 chance to obtain an asset as good or better than Martin.

[vincecarter4pres]

That cap space could be used in trade as well as signing a player...

[rpa]

That cap space could be used in trade as well as signing a player...

Sure; all you have to do is find a team who's willing to dump a better player than Martin for, well, nothing (or very little). Not exactly easy.

[vincecarter4pres]

That cap space could be used in trade as well as signing a player...

Sure; all you have to do is find a team who's willing to dump a better player than Martin for, well, nothing (or very little). Not exactly easy.

I'm not even sure I like the idea of that trade was just throwing it out there.

[rpa]

I'm not even sure I like the idea of that trade was just throwing it out there.

I'm pointing out more of a generality here. Basically the point that cap space for Nocioni would be good because the Kings can/will use that cap space to acquire a better asset. But it's highly unlikely they'd acquire a better asset than Martin with that cap space. I'd argue they wouldn't acquire an asset even close to Martin in terms of value.

Anyways, IMO if you trade Martin you do it alone or with neutral/positive fillers (like Kenny Thomas, etc.). Then look to move Nocioni in a separate deal.

[RealJM]

Evans & Harris just aren't a good fit at all--particularly because of Harris' God-awful 3pt shooting. The best compliment to Evans is a guy who can play off the ball and hit the 3 consistently--which means not Harris.

Sounds like Martin to me.