Draft Day Trade GSW/Memphis

[loserX]

If...as Loser X suggests, ANYONE we trade is sold cheap until GSW is a winner...that just tells me,SKIP IT. Win with what we have and THEN discuss.

And what if you don't win with what you have?

This is the Trades and Transactions board, not the "Wait and See" board. People are here to suggest trades. If you're going to shoot down every proposal because you'd rather stand pat, that's fine, but wouldn't you rather spend your time somewhere else?

It works like that..A LITTLE BIT. If Miami is under .500, that won't mean Wade is a giveaway.

Correct. Because Wade is a gold medalist, a 4-time all-NBAer, a 2-time all-Defense winner, and a CHAMPION AND FINALS MVP as a first option. None of which Ellis has come close to doing. Despite what you want to think, there is NO analogy between them just because they both score. Stephon Marbury could score. Richard Jefferson could score. Hell, so could Ricky Davis once upon a time. And they weren't compared to Wade either.

When Ellis WINS --and wins big-- as the first option on his team, you can compare him to Wade. Not until then. Want to bring up Maggette vs. Melo again? How about Biedrins vs. Bill Russell?

[Prospect Dong]

Rem,

Last night, the warriors started a guy who you've said is basically as good as Granger, another guy who you've said is basically as good as Wade, a pg who you've said would start for many teams, another G who you've said would start for many teams and a forward who you've said is worth more than Twill, CDR and a late first. And they brought a guy off the bench who you've argued is as good as Memphis' current starting C.

And what happened? They lost by over 30 points, mostly to the bench of a borderline playoff team. Someone called Malik Hairston hung 16 points on 7 of 9 shooting on them.

Even with injuries, because your praise for your roster goes 15-deep, you're fielding a team that you think is composed of all-stars and starters. Those sorts of teams win games. Yours doesn't.

You need to make your assessments of your players line up with the objective reality of how they perform. Right now you've got the first ever 60 win lottery team on your hands.

[turk3d]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

Here's what I think you guys should do. You should just propose trades with teams who have winning records and keep all your "stars" you keep trying to send to us. We'll keep our scrubs and just see what happens. How's that?

[loserX]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

I've re-read this thread several times and I haven't seen anyone say that all players on losing teams suck and all players on winning teams are "great". That's a pretty major straw man.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my only problem is old rem stating OUTRIGHT that Ellis' game contributes to wins even though he hasn't really won yet. It's like he's trying to sell us an Indy-500-winning car despite the fact that the car hasn't actually won the Indy 500. "Yeah, but it's had an unfortunate suspension problem, and the driver is an idiot...so therefore you should pay for the car as though the car has actually won." That ain't how the world works.

(Doesn't mean the car isn't any good...it may in fact be an excellent car. Just don't attach claims to it that are clearly snake oil and expect people to swallow them. If anyone wants to value Ellis the same way the Heat value Wade, that's his right; no one else is going to.)

[Relentless88]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

Here's what I think you guys should do. You should just propose trades with teams who have winning records and keep all your "stars" you keep trying to send to us. We'll keep our scrubs and just see what happens. How's that?

Get of Rem's balls for a while and breathe.

[lakerhater]

Like school on Saturday, no class.

[Relentless88]

Like school on Saturday, no class.

I have class today.

[Prospect Dong]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

Here's what I think you guys should do. You should just propose trades with teams who have winning records and keep all your "stars" you keep trying to send to us. We'll keep our scrubs and just see what happens. How's that?

Turk, this thread was started by a warrior fan, so that tired old refrain makes even less sense than usual.

But even if it wasn't, the fact that someone proposes a trade for one of your players doesn't mean they think that player's awesome, and the fact that someone criticises one of your players doesn't mean they think that player sucks.

[turk3d]

Turk, this thread was started by a warrior fan, so that tired old refrain makes even less sense than usual.

But even if it wasn't, the fact that someone proposes a trade for one of your players doesn't mean they think that player's awesome, and the fact that someone criticises one of your players doesn't mean they think that player sucks.

You're right Dong, it was a Warrior fan who initiated this bad trade (not the norm).

As for your second point, I'm glad you clarified for me, since based on most of the comments we get about our players, I wouldn't have known otherwise.

lol Memphis laughs so hard at this offer.

[turk3d]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

Here's what I think you guys should do. You should just propose trades with teams who have winning records and keep all your "stars" you keep trying to send to us. We'll keep our scrubs and just see what happens. How's that?

Get of Rem's balls for a while and breathe.

Why don't you get off Warriors players nuts out of your mouth and maybe you would breathe a little easier (it's a lot easier to breath when you don't have someone's nuts in your mouth).

[turk3d]

If Warriors players are SO BAD, why do you guys keep bringing up trades for Warriors players (who suck because they are on such a terrible team) and try and dump your "great" players on them (because they are on winning teams) on us? You must be trying to help us I guess.

I've re-read this thread several times and I haven't seen anyone say that all players on losing teams suck and all players on winning teams are "great". That's a pretty major straw man.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my only problem is old rem stating OUTRIGHT that Ellis' game contributes to wins even though he hasn't really won yet. It's like he's trying to sell us an Indy-500-winning car despite the fact that the car hasn't actually won the Indy 500. "Yeah, but it's had an unfortunate suspension problem, and the driver is an idiot...so therefore you should pay for the car as though the car has actually won." That ain't how the world works.

(Doesn't mean the car isn't any good...it may in fact be an excellent car. Just don't attach claims to it that are clearly snake oil and expect people to swallow them. If anyone wants to value Ellis the same way the Heat value Wade, that's his right; no one else is going to.)

Maybe not in this particular thread but certainly in many others. Every time we talk about the value of one of our players we get "well then why does your team suck so bad"? If they were so good, then they would have won more games. I believe this to be the ultimate strawman argument which comes we see all the time when discussing Warrior trades.

I don't think rem (or anyone else for that matter) is "trying to sell" our players, we're just defending our position in not thinking we should put them in the dumpster, trading for expirings (when we don't have a cap problem) or for what we consider to be inferior players. We just do not agree that we should be trading our talented young players for other teams discards.

Should Sacramento trade Evans just because their team is bad, should Minnesota trade Love because their team is bad, should NJ trade Lopez because they are so bad just because other teams think we should? No way. Not unless we think we're going to get at least equal value or better.

That's definitely a big resounding NO in my book, old rem's and a number of other Warrior posters. You do have a few Warrior fans who might agree with you (all our players suck except for GQ Curry) and might be that stupid but I'm pretty sure that they're in the minority.

[Prospect Dong]

Turk, no one's saying that a losing team can't have some good players on it. It just can't have as many good players as you and Rem suggest.

Me, I think Monta and Maggette (this year) are above average starters, maybe even stars, though not all stars. I think that's true of Biedrins, too, when he's healthy. And I think that Turiaf and Buike are very good backups, and that Curry's probably an average to good starter already.

Add all that up, and take into account which players you've actually been able to play, and I think i have a pretty good handle on why you'll win 20 games this year and, what, 26 last year.

You and Rem, on the other hand, think you sent out two stars, three starters and a decent backup last night against the spurs, and still got spanked by 30 points by their bench. You are not assessing your team properly.

[lakerhater]

Turk, no one's saying that a losing team can't have some good players on it. It just can't have as many good players as you and Rem suggest.

Me, I think Monta and Maggette (this year) are above average starters, maybe even stars, though not all stars.



You and Rem, on the other hand, think you sent out two stars,

Are Ellis and Maggette "stars" or not? This post left some ambiguity in regards to your beliefs on that specific issue.

[turk3d]

Turk, no one's saying that a losing team can't have some good players on it. It just can't have as many good players as you and Rem suggest.

Me, I think Monta and Maggette (this year) are above average starters, maybe even stars, though not all stars. I think that's true of Biedrins, too, when he's healthy. And I think that Turiaf and Buike are very good backups, and that Curry's probably an average to good starter already.

Add all that up, and take into account which players you've actually been able to play, and I think i have a pretty good handle on why you'll win 20 games this year and, what, 26 last year.

You and Rem, on the other hand, think you sent out two stars, three starters and a decent backup last night against the spurs, and still got spanked by 30 points by their bench. You are not assessing your team properly.

I think you are trying to do the stereotype thing once again Dong. Although rem and I agree on a lot, we're definitely not the same. I think rem's a good negotiator (makes sense, we're on a trade board aren't we?) and when you negotiate, you exaggerate (ON BOTH SIDES). Although when I think we're getting exaggerations coming from your side, sometimes I will exaggerate on the ours, only to try and add balance to the discussion but usually won't be dogmatic about it (unless I think the opposition is). I think rem (and DN) may do the exaggeration a bit more (I tend to put out sarcastic remarks in response, but this doesn't mean I'm necessarily taking the extreme position).

Last night, Ellis and Maggette scored over half of the teams points and played less than 3/4 of the the game combined. We lost that game, but it wasn't because of Ellis and Maggette. We lost that game by 30 because our D-Leaguers were exposed for what they are (just D-Leaguers, although they may in fact have somewhat of an NBA future), by a good team and a great coach (which is what most teams should be doing to us anyways).

If it weren't for Ellis and Mags, we probably would have lost by 60 which is no surprise. Any good NBA team should be able to beat a team of D-Leaguers and a guy who's broken down and semi-retired (Devean George) by that much (I don't care if the team were made up of D-League allstars). I think that the only guy who merits being a star on this team is Ellis (which can be and has been argued ad nauseum this season).

I'm not going to claim that Mags is a star, but I will say that he's played like one most of this season (this has been a career year for him and does not say that he will be able to continue at this level). Perhaps if he has a repeat performance next year and the year after, there will be more of an argument for him in that regard.

As for the D-Leaguers, I think that they've performed way above and beyond my expectations, but I don't think any of them would be starters on any team other than a injury decimated team like ours. Have they proved they belong in the NBA? With the exception of Williams (I really haven't seen enough of him although he's looked pretty good) I'd say they'd have a good shot at either 3rd string (or possibly 2nd) and some teams.

The bottom line is that when I see you guys slamming Warriors posters when they reject biases trades, then I'm likely to jump in on their defense. You can't make exaggerated claims about our players and expect us not to do likewise. If you want to deal for Warriors players and want most Warrior fans to be receptive, you have to make these trades more balanced because if they're not, don't expect us to just roll over and give in to those demands because some of us will not.

[Prospect Dong]

Are Ellis and Maggette "stars" or not? This post left some ambiguity in regards to your beliefs on that specific issue.

That's because I'm genuinely not sure. Gut feeling: Monta, yes, Maggette, no. But I think Turk's probably about right when he says:

I'm not going to claim that Mags is a star, but I will say that he's played like one most of this season (this has been a career year for him and does not say that he will be able to continue at this level)

[Prospect Dong]

I think rem's a good negotiator (makes sense, we're on a trade board aren't we?) and when you negotiate, you exaggerate

See, this is what drives me nuts. We're not negotiating trades here, because we're not in a position to actually agree on anything, let alone carry it through. If Rem was a GM I'd expect him to bust out his usual "did you know Monta score 40 points 6 times last season... he is a winner... and also getting assists..." schtick. But he's not. We're here to discuss trades reasonably, not to try to fleece each other. i can honestly swear to you that, no matter how much I've overhyped a memphis player, it's never been so that I can trick another team's fans into agreeing to a lopsided imaginary trade.

Last night, Ellis and Maggette scored over half of the teams points and played less than 3/4 of the the game combined. We lost that game, but it wasn't because of Ellis and Maggette. We lost that game by 30 because our D-Leaguers were exposed for what they are (just D-Leaguers, although they may in fact have somewhat of an NBA future), by a good team and a great coach (which is what most teams should be doing to us anyways).

I'd agree with most of that. But that means I'd kinda like you to jump in when other warriors posters are hyping your D-Leaguers. Like when Rem is saying that Tolliver is worth more than TWill, CDR and a late first, or when don Nelson is saying that Chris Hunter is as good as Thabeet.

[turk3d]

I think rem's a good negotiator (makes sense, we're on a trade board aren't we?) and when you negotiate, you exaggerate

See, this is what drives me nuts. We're not negotiating trades here, because we're not in a position to actually agree on anything, let alone carry it through. If Rem was a GM I'd expect him to bust out his usual "did you know Monta score 40 points 6 times last season... he is a winner... and also getting assists..." schtick. But he's not. We're here to discuss trades reasonably, not to try to fleece each other. i can't honestly swear to you that, no matter how much I've overhyped a memphis player, it's never been so that I can trick another team's fans into agreeing to a lopsided imaginary trade.

Last night, Ellis and Maggette scored over half of the teams points and played less than 3/4 of the the game combined. We lost that game, but it wasn't because of Ellis and Maggette. We lost that game by 30 because our D-Leaguers were exposed for what they are (just D-Leaguers, although they may in fact have somewhat of an NBA future), by a good team and a great coach (which is what most teams should be doing to us anyways).

I'd agree with most of that. But that means I'd kinda like you to jump in when other warriors posters are hyping your D-Leaguers. Like when Rem is saying that Tolliver is worth more than TWill, CDR and a late first, or when don Nelson is saying that Chris Hunter is as good as Thabeet.

Ha ha, lol. I think just the opposite. This is REALGM and I believe that many of us consider ourselves to be GMs in the sense that we're looking out for our teams best interests (not the others, which is understandable). That seems to me to be more or less the main premise of this website and is exemplified I would think on the trade board. And the part that I consider the funniest is the "fleecing" part. Guys are always trying to fleece each other here. Where have you been? I just so happen to feel like the biggest "fleecers" tend to come after Warrior players moreso than others (but I admit their may be offbase somewhat in that regard since I pay a lot more attention to what's going on in trades involving Warrior players than with other teams).

As for "jumping" I believe I do (rarely I admit) in particular when I strongly do not agree with them. However, I also am of an opinion that people DO have a right to their own opinions even if I don't agree with them. I also take into consideration the opposing argument and if I think that it's equally as bad I tend to be more inclined to support the guy representative of my fanbase or if I think both arguments equally bad, may just choose to stay out of it.

I tend to jump in when I think the argument is totally unbalanced. I figure that if it's unbalanced in the Warriors favor, there will be plenty of other non-Warrior posters who will step in and straighten things out (and there usually is more than enough). I'm a Warrior fan and I admit it and although homeristic in some regard I think most people on here are in favor of them team as well otherwise they likely wouldn't be fans. So with regard to the first one, yes, I believe that we are negotiating trades here and surprised you don't see it that way. Of course this is nothing more than fantasy sports if you will. It's nice having an intelligent conversation with you for a change.

[Prospect Dong]

Turk,

If we could actually agree on trades here, and then somehow judge who had fleeced who, I'd be all for trying to get other team's players for as little as possible. But we can't do any of that. if you come here with the aim of convincing other posters that your players are worth more than you think they are, you'll never actually agree to anything, because it's not like anyone can actually make a counteroffer and agree to a trade.

And that's exactly what i see with most of the warriors poster here. Several of you guys have never, ever agreed to a trade on the trade board. Even a no-brainer like this, or Twill, CDR and a 1st for Tolliver and Rem will turn it down. Maybe he doesn't really believe those things he says, but because we're not actually involved in a negotiation, we can't go anywhere with it.

I promise you, most posters here do not think they're engaged in a game where they try to get other teams' fans to "sell" they players for less than they're worth.

[turk3d]

Turk,

If we could actually agree on trades here, and then somehow judge who had fleeced who, I'd be all for trying to get other team's players for as little as possible. But we can't do any of that. if you come here with the aim of convincing other posters that your players are worth more than you think they are, you'll never actually agree to anything, because it's not like anyone can actually make a counteroffer and agree to a trade.

And that's exactly what i see with most of the warriors poster here. Several of you guys have never, ever agreed to a trade on the trade board. Even a no-brainer like this, or Twill, CDR and a 1st for Tolliver and Rem will turn it down. Maybe he doesn't really believe those things he says, but because we're not actually involved in a negotiation, we can't go anywhere with it.

I promise you, most posters here do not think they're engaged in a game where they try to get other teams' fans to "sell" they players for less than they're worth.

Well I guess we just disagree on this particular issue as I see it all the time (you sound like you're just trying to say it's Warrior fans who do it, rem in particular but I see many other fans doing a large majority of the time). And you may be right, it's fruitless to try to do it, but unfortunately I don't think it stops people from trying (and this is not just Warrior fans I'm referring to here).

To use your example, I think you need to be a little more circumspect in how you derive your conclusions. How many times have non-Warrior posters attempted to "bait" Warrior fans by putting together some totally unrealistic trade scenarios? Quite a few, especially recently in the past month or two (posters have even indicated that this what they're doing in their initial posts)?

Basically such as would you trade CJ Watson for Dwayne Wade? This is unrealistic and has no useful purpose but to draw an equally ridiculous response (this is I what I was referring to in my previous post). How do you expect the Warrior fan to respond to posts like this? They just pretty much ignore the poster as well as the post. How do you know that rem wouldn't do this?

What good would it be to say yes to a trade like that when you know it would never happen? I've seen times when Warriors will respond with a "yes" and indicate that they'd drive Tolliver to the Airport and pay for his plane ticket? As soon as a Warrior fan says "yes" then what will happen is that 3 fans from Indiana will immediately post an expletive based tirade and claim that the Warriors are all homers and are once again overvaluing their players when it wasn't even a Warrior fan who suggested that ridiculous trade in the first place.

Perhaps old rem responded that way because he thought it was just a bogus trade in the first place (not sure if that was the original posters actual suggestion and that you didn't embellish it's badness a bit). I doubt very seriously that if it was (Tolliver for TWill, CDR and Indiana #1) that old rem would turn it down if he thought it were legit. He'll have to be the one to clarify however. If he did, then I certainly wouldn't side with him on that and I'm sure you won't find many Warrior posters (if any) who'd side with him on it either.

[old rem]

Turk, no one's saying that a losing team can't have some good players on it. It just can't have as many good players as you and Rem suggest.

Me, I think Monta and Maggette (this year) are above average starters, maybe even stars, though not all stars. I think that's true of Biedrins, too, when he's healthy. And I think that Turiaf and Buike are very good backups, and that Curry's probably an average to good starter already.

Add all that up, and take into account which players you've actually been able to play, and I think i have a pretty good handle on why you'll win 20 games this year and, what, 26 last year.

You and Rem, on the other hand, think you sent out two stars, three starters and a decent backup last night against the spurs, and still got spanked by 30 points by their bench. You are not assessing your team properly.

That was a rare game I missed. I did see the WIN vs the Hornets,and a last sec loss to the Lakers.
I've watched various FRAGMENTS of the Warriors play all year. I see Monta as a star, Maggette a productive starter. Morrow is a second year guy who CAN be hot as is,figures to be hot more often with experience. The D league crew are under rated/over achievers and are VERY good 3rd stringers. George...3rd stringer. CJ...a good backup ewho can step up. The Spurs are a team GSW has NEVER figured out. Full strength,we can't seem to beat them. In the past 3-4 years, we've done better vs ANYONE else.

Our "assembly" concept was not to have ONE C who's been here 2 months,ONE PF who's been here 2 months...both rookies.....no backup. Our plan was not to have D George play 5 min a week. The plan wasn't to have a different starting PG every other game,or to be so thin nobody has any fouls to give.

How good are Randolph,Wright,Azubuike,Biedrins,Turiaf,Curry? Well....there's a better 5 there than we HAD last night. Almost NOBODY on the GSW roster has hit his peak,many are still at the stage where they improve substantially off getting a month of good minutes. While some teams get all warm and fuzzy about their one or two rising prospects...we got a BUNCH of that.

Whichever HALF of our roster happens to be available, they managed to win a few,to be close usually.i see a deep bunch of guys who,given a role and minutes are GOOD. Pretty unlikely I'm gonna want some backups who,frankly,are not worth the roster spot to us. We are NOT the unprecedented fools to be giving away a lot of guys we want HERE for MANY years. GSW has no contract that peaks higher than $11 mill. GSW should have a second 5 where anyone is good enough to often start...and everyone HAS started. A healthy GSW can lead the league in shotblocks and maybe steals. GSW can have 3, 3pt sharpshooters in the NBA's top 10...maybe more.

Even minus so many players, GSW has scored. GSW has had problems on D,problems rebounding. Currently,the top 4 guys at C + PF are OUT and at no point did we have more than one of them 100% healthy. Can Biedrins rebound? Yes. Can Turiaf block shots? Yes can Randolph rebound,block,run? Yes. What we saw of Wright...VERY nice potential but delayed.

Morrow is a great shooter and I don't care what the system or pace,he nails the 3 at a SPECIAL % and had improving total game. Azu is ALSO a great shooter but is a rare "VERY ATHLETIC" wing who's great from 3. Maggette is tough to the rim,he WILL get to the line most games. Upgradded his game/efficiency,a lot. Many, not just us locals see S Curry as a legit ROY candidate even if Evans had a big head start. I hear this "GSW guys over rate" stuff...but WHO? We don't BUY some of the shell game huckster crap that says we got to do this or that for some absurd reason. Much got claimed about guys pissed or wanting out,and generally those were lies. Jackson is gone. case closed.

We NOW are looking mostly at the options we expect to get with a high #1. We are not locked in on a specific player. We expect someone GOOD, but not nessecerily an instant starter.

It's too soon for GSW to EXPECT a good trade. The assets need to get more development,experience,showcase and SUCCESS. Selling " upside" loaded guys for "what you see is what you get" guys or for Overpaid but faded stars...won't get GSW anywhere. I wanna see what these players are in a YEAR. Then it's perhaps to start sorting. We may HAVE most of what we WANT.

When I get FUSSY...it's because I'm not all that eager to SELL. If you LOWBALL.....F off. We don't NEED to do anything.