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Kerb Hohl wrote:Since the game is way, way, way more about acquiring talent than it was 15-20 years ago with the portal and rules even further leaning to the offense - get me somebody that can recruit and cobble together such teams if we're gonna move on.

And it's intensifying. I want this weird era to come to an end in some way, shape, or form - don't know what that looks like, and it's for another day - but I don't think it is. NBA shuttering the G-League Ignite was quite interesting. Not that they couldn't spin it back up just as quick, but it seemed to be their acknowledgement that the money is freely flowing in college now. I am guessing we'll continually see fringe first round guys stick around in college because they can get more money there.

Much like with football/Fickell, if we do move on from Gard we need much more than just a new coach. We need a new strategy. Honestly, there'll be little reason to fire him if we don't give the next guy more "resources." Unless they've been there for Gard, too, and he just didn't use them.

I think once again you guys kind of have this backwards. Fickell is an excellent talent acquirer - he's not hammering the state of Wisconsin, which does have solid talent for basketball. Basketball recruiting is really weird/hard. You only have 12 spots so you probably aren't going to add Domask as a freshman and maybe you just don't have a starting SF role to offer the star from Milwaukee so he bolts. I don't personally give one **** about in-state recruiting.

Similar to football, Chryst didn't understand the new era of college sports. It's about getting high-upside freshmen and filling in the gaps with transfers and playing to the modern rules. I think Leonhard actually would've understood this and been fine. But with Fickell around, they found a guy that was already ready-made to do this.

There's New Gard and Old Gard. Old Gard recruited Tyler Wahl and Crowl and developed imperfect players over 4 years, which is kind of useless nowadays. I think New Gard "gets it" much more than Chryst did. He modernized the offense, got Storr, etc...but similar to Leonhard being a, "hey, he's our guy and he kinda knows the new era and we know what we have and it's not terrible" - if they can find somebody who is just really good at this...that's the better bet.

Welp, it's problematic if Gard is getting outcoached.

MikeIsGood wrote:And it's intensifying. I want this weird era to come to an end in some way, shape, or form

For probably a century, we had this great setup known as college athletics. Everyone loved it, and everyone benefited from it. Schools, players, coaches, NBA, NFL.

But the money got too big. And the players realized they were leaving a lot of cash on the table. So, the NCAA has morphed into some type of pro-sports league. But without the rules and CBA of a pro sports league.

And the NIL isn't the problem. The big issue is the transfer portal and free transfer that goes down these days. There is zero stability from year to year for the programs.

Crazy frustrating game to play that badly after looking so solid last week. And to just completely cave to the ball pressure on D is mind numbing. How are you not used to this playing in the B1G vs team like MSU.

I assume there was rampant ref whining on places like here and twitter but I don't buy into that at all. It was clear early physical play was going to be allowed, and you just wimped out in spite of being a big ten team. Can't whine last weekend about all the touch calls and foul trouble and then complain this week ago the little bumps weren't called.

Glad to see Wahl go. IMO a big issue since Bo is we've always had Happ and him. As much as they were both generally good players, always having someone out there who can't shoot just kills modern offenses. And then Gard compounds it with insisting on playing two bigs, and a backup like Gilmore. A focus for me would be no more guys who can't shoot so they can get back to a ball movement offense instead of stare at the post stuff. OF course it was improved this year due to Storr, now take it to the next step.

Assuming the whole team is back I think the move is give Gard the year and see how it goes. A big part of deciding on a coach is do the players respect, try, care, 'lost the locker room' etc and I'd say it seems fairly clear he has not. I'd push him for an assistant coach shake up and I wouldn't give the auto contract extension if it affects the buyout down the line. UW next year is a solid team and the conf is wide open and will come down to who portals better. If nothing crazy happens, UW would probably have the best returning team before portal craziness happens to build other teams. If we do well in that area as well they could be good next year. But if there is a max exodus by the good players and the right coach hire presents itself I see going for it now.

But in general they did what we wanted preseason, essentially they came up 1 game short of pre season goals. Pre season it was be good again near top of conf, play better brand of ball, make the tourney and win at least one game but hopefully two. Didn't get that 1 win but did get 3 last week to somewhat make up for it but still not enough. Its just frustrating that they tricked us into thinking they were legit back in Jan and then to play so bad in this one game, but in general they did what we wanted going into the year. Now, you have to do another tick better next year. Take a step back next year or flounder in the portal/NIL world and I'd say they should get aggressive in exploring options and finding that right fit.

paulpressey25 wrote:And the NIL isn't the problem. The big issue is the transfer portal and free transfer that goes down these days. There is zero stability from year to year for the programs.

It's at least kiiiiinda the problem. I think it's impossible to unlink the two at this point, because NIL is why you transfer now. We can't just prevent them from transferring at all; does reverting back to one transfer/player fix it? And sit out a year? It would definitely help - or "help" - but I think it would be rebuffed quickly by players who have become more enabled in this than ever. The unions being organized...can only imagine.

It's a really complex problem. And that's part of why I don't think anything will change soon.

I'm on the fire Gard train.

Sports is mainly talent accumulation. He recruits sub-athletes. Storr is a great athlete, but at present, not a good basketball player.

I wouldn't give him till next year. This was a veteran team that was blah. What makes anyone think Crowl, Hepburn and Klesmit will make some kind of jump? They won't.

Every year they get steamrolled by a quicker team. Gard can't even recruit the good players in-state-the list is long and is continuing with the announcement of another kid from Oshkosh going elsewhere.

Coaches are always fired a few years after they should be.

Sometimes you have to look at other boards and continue to diversify your posting game. Just because the regular season is still active don't mean the lab is in recess. What I'm trying to say is I saw somebody post on B5Q "Common man" when they meant to post "C'mon man."

When you have the opportunity to add more arrows to the quiver: do so.

In addition to what's been said from about recruiting and X's and O's, I'll add that this is just an awful entertainment product right now. 20-25 point halves are tolerable when you are a successful program, but that is no longer the case.

Mags FTW wrote:In addition to what's been said from about recruiting and X's and O's, I'll add that this is just an awful entertainment product right now. 20-25 point halves are tolerable when you are a successful program, but that is no longer the case.

Until they pooped themselves against jmu in the first half, that really wasn't a problem all year. Their offense was really good.

jute2003 wrote:

Mags FTW wrote:In addition to what's been said from about recruiting and X's and O's, I'll add that this is just an awful entertainment product right now. 20-25 point halves are tolerable when you are a successful program, but that is no longer the case.

Until they pooped themselves against jmu in the first half, that really wasn't a problem all year. Their offense was really good.

It was a lot better this year for sure, but there were stretches where what Mags references were prevalent IMO. Felt like half the team was stuck in old Wisconsin and half was new, so when Storr/Blackwell/Max weren't producing, it felt like we slowed down to a screeching halt again (even if Wahl, Crowl were playing well for example).

I think it's something we need to be conscious of because, that coupled with NIL dollars, is what will attract the kind of talent we need to compete in this landscape.

Mags FTW wrote:In addition to what's been said from about recruiting and X's and O's, I'll add that this is just an awful entertainment product right now. 20-25 point halves are tolerable when you are a successful program, but that is no longer the case.

Offense averaged almost 75 pts/game this season, the most in well over 10 years. It’s more than the two Final Four teams.

tski1972 wrote:

Mags FTW wrote:In addition to what's been said from about recruiting and X's and O's, I'll add that this is just an awful entertainment product right now. 20-25 point halves are tolerable when you are a successful program, but that is no longer the case.

Offense averaged almost 75 pts/game this season, the most in well over 10 years. It’s more than the two Final Four teams.

They said this a lot on Friday, too. While true, this is why not everything is black and white. The runner-up team had by some metrics the most efficient offense of all time. It was also in a different era, crazy enough given that it was only 10 years, and their pacing in D1 overall was higher than this team. Wisconsin was 176th this year in PPG; we were 91st in 2014 (73.5). Our PPG this year would have ranked us in the 60s in 2014.

Yeah, this was pretty easily the best offense weve had since the hayes/koenig years. Those typical droughts werent really a thing this year and if they shot better than 25% from 3 would pretty easily hit 70-80 pts.

The defense was the biggest issue all year.

They need to find a way to get TJ Otelzberger from Iowa State. The guy has been absolutely crushing us in performance and recruiting within our state. Just the other day Xxavion Mitchell committed to ISU over offers from Wisconsin and others.

On top of being a good recruiter to a pretty sub par school, he is a tremendous coach. We need to move on from Gard. His only s16 appearances were with Bo Ryan's teams. He has not recruited how he should have. He is an assistant coach.

At very least, Wisconsin should try something different. Right now the most logical options are...

TJ Otelzberger
Joe Krabbenhoft (new blood, seems like a better "coach" and "program CEO" than Gard.

Im sure there are many other candidates too... but these are the two that make most sense to me right now.

Player Movement:

Storr is gone.
Essegian said he was staying, but immediately after he said that Gard didn't play him again.
Ilver is likely gone
Hodges gone.
Hopefully McGee / Gilmore gone (ok that's just me hoping).


- Hepburn needs to find his shots more, he is out best player on both ends
- Crowl - we need to find a starter to move Crowl to the bench. Maybe Winter puts on 30lbs.. Someone from the outside is more likely. Crowl is way too soft to play on the interior and be a top team. Everyone knows he wont block your shot, they attack us at will inside. (on a side note, the change in the offensive foul rules has really hurt wisconsin. Their bigs for years were more built and coached to get position and not foul. The change in the rules, has hurt teams that guard the right way. They can no longer draw charges on wild driving guards. You have two choices - 1. reach in and reach in some more (like what JMU did) or 2. have bigs that can block shots on the interior. You can no longer draw that charge on the crazy ass YMCA drive to the basket with a full head of steam and chuck it up at the basket hoping for a foul or a prayer player anymore.
- Wahl - graduated program
- Storr - NBA or big NIL deal
- Gilmore / McGee / Ilver / Hodges - hopefully leave, should never play at a big ten program.
- Essegian - needs a new coach, talent is there, confidence is not. Kid loves being a Badger. I hope he stays and finds redemption.
- Klesmit - heart of the program now, him and Hepburn. Our back court is good enough to be a NCAA championship backcourt.
- Winter - needs sandwiches and weight room. needs to learn to handle the ball better, have stronger hands. Similar to Crowl as a 1st year player by eye test. More offensive potential, Less defensive presence (hard to say that - but he is a year 1 player - he has a chance to improve).
- Blackwell - Could make a massive jump in year 2, I think its more likely he gradually gets better each year. He needs to be scoring option 3 or 4 next year.
- Yalden - likely gone, didnt travel to NCAA tournament - Greg Gard decision. Other redshirts came. It just suggests to me that the kid is a knucklehead. I haven't asked what happened there but based on the things i heard last summer/fall about him, they try to cover it up for a bit, but the story always comes out.

Incoming likely to play -

Frietag - He is a skilled on ball guard. Strong defender. Can get to the rim. He wont get big minutes unless someone gets hurt or someone unexpected leaves. Likely guard 4 behind Hepburn/Klesmit/Blackwell - which still will get him 15-20 minutes a game.

Robison - probably wont play alot, unless he ends up being the best shooter on the team outside of Klesmit. It's possible, but he is a likely redshirt.

The way I see it: We need to add 2 bigs for 2024/2025. A rotation of (Portal Player / Portal Player / Crowl / Winter) should be ok. But you need 2 guys. Crowl should be coming off bench.

I’m fine with Essegian staying because there is a chance the sharpshooter is still there…but he does nothing else well.

Would rather he go elsewhere and find his shot, but they could use another roster spot.

The problem the seeds are sewn with this roster. Were ride or die with guys like Crowl who I just think don’t have the athletic skill to get over the hump. The big changes are 2+ years from now. Probably too late for Gard.

This team is two athletic bigs from being a final four team and a top 1-2 seed.

They need a new coach. Some bigs. Chuckles needs a haircut too.