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Kohl/Arena Discussion Page 71 - Study Released

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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#721 » by InsideOut » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:21 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
InsideOut wrote:I also think the Brewers had a better argument when they said they needed a new stadium to compete. Miller Park added the luxury boxes and other forms of revenue that helped bring in more cash.


The Bucks need club seats and restaurants to compete with the new destination center arenas being built. I think the story is the same.

I think unfortunately you are too battled scarred from Herb Kohl's poor team management which is understandable. Other than the Wizards, Warriors and pre 2011 Clippers, the Bucks over the last 20-years have been the worst performing and worst managed franchise in the league.

We are at the very bottom of fan experiences the past 20-years. Just give us a middle of the road management team and performance and we are talking about a much different atmosphere around here.


I don't think the money is as important for the Bucks as Kohl is spending his max most seasons anyway. Anything extra will just go into his pocket or be wasted. I do agree a different owner would better use the money and that it would help the Bucks.

Yes, I have battle scars. The Bucks are like a son that has a drug problem, lives on the street and only comes home to steal jewelry out of your wife's dresser drawer. He is your son and you love him but at some point you have to get on with your life and can't spend your free time looking for him in crack houses while your wife hides the family jewels in the freezer.

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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#722 » by InsideOut » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:31 pm

KeyRabbit wrote:
InsideOut wrote:Give Kohl the extra money and I'll assume he mismanages it and it will lead to signing 2 Goodens instead of one just one.


That's missing the point if the question is whether a new arena is needed. Kohl or any FO can make good and bad decisions, but conditioning support for something fundamental to fielding a competitive team based on projected waste ignores the fact that more revenue would allow the team more attempts or leeway to take shots at putting together a winning combo. Lots of teams have signed their own Gooen; some of them can absorb it or recover faster than the Bucks. Much of that is based on the wealth of the owner but the arena revenues also figure in.

The Bucks need a new owner that can build a winning team and at that point I think the fans come back and then a new stadium has a chance.


Agree on new ownership (or at least ownership involvement) but that's precisely how to stonewall negotiations with an owner. They all do in fact spend a lot of money to own and operate an NBA team, and most are driven by return on investment. From that financial standpoint, saying "spend more and show me wins, then maybe I will consider helping to pay for a new arena that will improve your investment" usually falls on deaf ears because it shifts too much risk to the owner. Yes, I know they are super rich and can handle it, etc, but that's the analysis. They're not doing this to increase the chance they lose money. It's actually a luxury that we've had an owner so dedicated to the state. But at some point it's just too much money, so the public taxpayer has to be the first one to blink and commit to support.


I'm not missing the point...I just don't agree with it. I don't feel the bucks making extra money NOW helps them NOW. I think others feel that way as well. Would the extra money help if he had a new owner...yes, if he wasn't as dumb as Kohl. So my support is conditional and I think that is fair. Show me a guy that can build a winner and I'll give you my money. Until then I feel any money I give them will be wasted so I won't give it to them. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. If an owner thinks that is unfair then I say tough. When you stink for like 23 of the past 25 years you have lost the ability to say trust me that I will put the money to good work.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#723 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:55 pm

InsideOut wrote:I don't think the money is as important for the Bucks as Kohl is spending his max most seasons anyway.


Two things:

Kohl is spending the max partly because he loves the Bucks and partly because he has zero debt service requirements. He bought the team for $17 million and quickly paid off the loan associated with the purchase back in the 1980's. Any new owner will have at least $250 million of debt service at a hypothetical rate of 5% or $12,500,000 annually in interest to service.

Secondly, Kohl knows this won't get done with him remaining owner. The entire package will be sold with the new ownership group identified and locked in. This is the same way it want down in 1985 when Fitz sold to Kohl and then the BC package came into line.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#724 » by unklchuk » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:30 pm

"I don't buy that. A superstar would seal the deal, but it is not required. We simply need to be a winning team and the fans will come. We can win without a superstar....maybe not win it all of course but..."

Not only have most Bucks seasons lately been bad, but the good ones have been quickly followed lately by bad ones. Like FTD. The team has achieved nothing in building confidence with the general public. Who's going to want to pay hundreds to take their family to a Bucks game with the current level of likelihood that the game will be a stinker?

So I'd say we can start to turn this around with a good (but not contending) team that the public has some faith in. Make the lion's share of the games FUN. Make fans optimistic that this season will be pretty good, and next season will be better. That path can lead to a star.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#725 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:50 pm

unklchuk wrote:Who's going to want to pay hundreds to take their family to a Bucks game


Chuk, again I'll draw parallels to the Brewers discussion in 1995 on local sports radio when everyone said they weren't attending because ticket prices were too high.

You can take a family of four to a number of Bucks games this season for $69 and that includes concessions. They are literally giving tickets away and have been doing so for the last three years.

The "price" thing at the current time is a red herring. People aren't going because they don't want to go. (and they likely are spending some of their discretionary income at Miller Park with the Brewers because the Brewers win and have been the cool thing to do that past few years)
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#726 » by Newz » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:51 pm

Totally agree with PP. Bucks games are really affordable right now. Hell, if you use StubHub for most games you can get into the lower bowl for like $5 a person. (Sometimes it's even cheaper than that. Last year I sat in the lower bowl for $2 a ticket)

No one wants to go to the games because:

1. The Bucks have been consistently terrible for a long time.
2. The NBA is a terrible product right now.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#727 » by ReasonablySober » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:56 pm

I honestly wouldn't walk across the street to watch the Bucks right now. That said, I probably wouldn't do the same to see a Milwaukee Brewers game either, and they're actually good. But I would if it meant a couple hours of tailgating and day drinking. That's the problem the Bucks face. They need a very good team, sustained success (as has been said, the FTD run did nothing for the following season's attendance) and a marketable star.

So while when the Brewers are bad they still have tailgating and a decent stadium to attract fans, the Bucks will never have that kind of attraction.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#728 » by Newz » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:58 pm

Just watching the games it doesn't really seem like many small markets have success filling up their stadiums. I personally think a lot of people are just getting sick of the NBA.

The league itself isn't going to collapse or anything, but it's going to survive because of the big markets and it will never be a huge success like the NFL... not if they keep doing what they are doing.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#729 » by averageposter » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:03 pm

I am always surprised by the fan apathy. It seems most people have the attitude that they only enjoy the night out at the BC if the Bucks win. Probably I'll get told I'm the worst kind of enabling fan, but a couple of years ago when were still in Section 217 two full season tickets were about $3500 ish. I was curious what seats like those cost in an equivalent location, in a place like Chicago (almost double), Indiana ($4800), Cleveland nearly double (obviously due to LBJ), New York and the Lakers, more like triple or more. To be able to watch NBA basketball from the proximity you can even in 217 that reasonably is pretty remarkable to say nothing of $25 lower bowls for single games. Now I sit center courtish a few rows up and the difference between Milwaukee and any where else is even greater. Win or lose the opportunity to see the great players around the league that close at that price was something I couldn't pass up especially since I know if an arena is built or the Bucks do turn things around I'll probably be right back in a corner section.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#730 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:08 pm

The Bucks do though have a built in audience that many are not aware of. In winter in downtown Milwaukee, there isn't a whole lot to do. There are a ton of professionals needing a place to entertain clients and young people on Saturday nights looking for something to take a date to before the bars.

Just as you guys like tailgating, many of us like heading over the the BC after work or inner ring suburban people like the idea of coming "downtown" during the dead of winter since there isn't much else going on.

If the Bucks leave, there will be a giant black hole in downtown Milwaukee during the winter. That's why I'm glad to hear that the powers that be are now scrambling to see what they can do.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#731 » by jokeboy86 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:15 pm

They need a miracle and that miracle in my opinion only comes in the form of a superstar. Otherwise I stand by my statement and prediction that they won't get it done. And now that the Milwaukee politicians are saying it should be a county issue too that makes it even more unlikely. This might be the one issue where Walker might get some bipartisan support against this. I know people who voted for the recall against Walker but the and some of them have said they're with him as far as this issue and let it go to a referendum or they're firmly against it. I dislike Walker as a politician alot but I give him credit ( :o ). He's gone on radio and discussed the issue in print many times, why the hell doesn't Kohl speak more about this or do radio interviews about this. Other then the obligatory Don Walker puff piece or taking two questions after the season he still remains silent on the most important thing concerning his franchise. If he's leaving office what's the risk by speaking more frequently about this. Also ignore most articles from the JS and sports media about this because they have a biased opinion and I think that isn't helping right now. I do think people would vote to replace the Bradley Center but unfortunately not now and not cause the Bucks say so.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#732 » by jokeboy86 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:27 pm

averageposter wrote:I am always surprised by the fan apathy. It seems most people have the attitude that they only enjoy the night out at the BC if the Bucks win. Probably I'll get told I'm the worst kind of enabling fan, but a couple of years ago when were still in Section 217 two full season tickets were about $3500 ish. I was curious what seats like those cost in an equivalent location, in a place like Chicago (almost double), Indiana ($4800), Cleveland nearly double (obviously due to LBJ), New York and the Lakers, more like triple or more. To be able to watch NBA basketball from the proximity you can even in 217 that reasonably is pretty remarkable to say nothing of $25 lower bowls for single games. Now I sit center courtish a few rows up and the difference between Milwaukee and any where else is even greater. Win or lose the opportunity to see the great players around the league that close at that price was something I couldn't pass up especially since I know if an arena is built or the Bucks do turn things around I'll probably be right back in a corner section.


It might be easier selling people on the fact that you get to see Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Rose, Griffin every year than seeing the Bucks. I've said this jokingly in the past but maybe that should be the proposal to the public. They keep saying "keep the Bucks here" but right now thats as bad as saying "keep the clippers(pre-Griffin/Paul) Its when you mention the Bucks that people tune you out.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#733 » by KeyRabbit » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:31 pm

InsideOut wrote:I'm not missing the point...I just don't agree with it. I don't feel the bucks making extra money NOW helps them NOW. I think others feel that way as well. Would the extra money help if he had a new owner...yes, if he wasn't as dumb as Kohl. So my support is conditional and I think that is fair. Show me a guy that can build a winner and I'll give you my money. Until then I feel any money I give them will be wasted so I won't give it to them. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. If an owner thinks that is unfair then I say tough. When you stink for like 23 of the past 25 years you have lost the ability to say trust me that I will put the money to good work.


You are, but it is not relevant to your analysis. You are saying that a team is only entitled to a new arena if they are good or have an owner that knows what to do with the money earned. I'm saying that you have no guarantee that your money won't be wasted anyway. So the focus should be on what a new arena could do for the city and the team in any case. Having said that, two decades of inconsistency and bad decisions will definitely skew people's opinions. I want the NBA in MKE, so I hope it's not skewed away from the real issues about what an arena could do.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#734 » by xTitan » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:43 pm

Lets get one thing straight, this is not going to be a Walker issue at all, this is going to be a Barrett and probably and Abebly issue, no state money will be going to this project. I know barrett was supposed to be on wssp this afternoon, I am guessing he was asked about a new arena, not sure what else he could possibly contribute.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#735 » by MickeyDavis » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:25 pm

IF there is a talk about a sales tax increase (such as for Miller Park) then it is a state issue as they will have to approve. If they want to limit it to Milwaukee County only they could go the referendum route as the Pack did but I don't think that will fly at all.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#736 » by paulpressey25 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:34 pm

This thing will live or die with the State GOP and Walker. I believe that at the end of the day, the Milwaukee crew will figure out some way to local tax or divert a tax to create a giant "entertainment district" in the Park East. But that according the State law, even if the tax is local, the tax concept will need to be approved by the State.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#737 » by WEFFPIM » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:48 pm

The best way to attack a new building is to make it about more than just the Bucks, but Marquette, concerts, shows, hockey, etc. Keep the BC, the Bucks leave, Marquette builds their own building, Admirals leave because they can't sustain a building twice as big as they need, fewer shows come because the place is a dump.

Pretty simple domino effect, frankly. It's not, "Can the city survive without the Bucks?" It's "Can the city survive if the Bucks leave and take everything else with them?"
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#738 » by InsideOut » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:51 pm

KeyRabbit wrote:
InsideOut wrote:I'm not missing the point...I just don't agree with it. I don't feel the bucks making extra money NOW helps them NOW. I think others feel that way as well. Would the extra money help if he had a new owner...yes, if he wasn't as dumb as Kohl. So my support is conditional and I think that is fair. Show me a guy that can build a winner and I'll give you my money. Until then I feel any money I give them will be wasted so I won't give it to them. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. If an owner thinks that is unfair then I say tough. When you stink for like 23 of the past 25 years you have lost the ability to say trust me that I will put the money to good work.


You are, but it is not relevant to your analysis. You are saying that a team is only entitled to a new arena if they are good or have an owner that knows what to do with the money earned. I'm saying that you have no guarantee that your money won't be wasted anyway. So the focus should be on what a new arena could do for the city and the team in any case. Having said that, two decades of inconsistency and bad decisions will definitely skew people's opinions. I want the NBA in MKE, so I hope it's not skewed away from the real issues about what an arena could do.


I understand my money might be wasted anyway. Think of it like this. I won't give my money to the current Bucks because 25 years of history shows my money will be wasted. Now if we get a new owner and he blows the team up and collects top 5 picks I will feel my money now has less of a chance of being wasted so I'll pay up. Could it still be a waste, yup…but at least it won’t be a sure waste.

So now let’s focus on your other point of what a new arena could do for the city. I say it does next to nothing. Well it maybe gets a few curios fans the first year but that is it. As others have mentioned, they will watch a bad Brewers team because you can tailgate and hang out on a warm day. However, they aren't coming to see a bad Bucks team no matter where they play. You aren't tailgating at the Bucks game and you aren't getting a tan while relaxing on a warm day. All you are left with is watching an irrelevant team play an irrelevant game. Make the Bucks relevant and they'll show up at either a new arena or the old BC.

What do you see a new arena doing for Milwaukee if the Bucks continue to be irrelevant. What is the draw of the Bucks stinking in a new arena vs. stinking in the current BC? I've been coming to Milwaukee for close to 50 years and never one did I come because of a building. I came to watch a team.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#739 » by soboMP3 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:56 pm

In 2008 the city of Milwaukee voted "yes" to a referendum to add a 0.5% sales tax to go towards public transportation and the parks system. It was passed by several percentage points. Ultimately the state (for whatever reason) rejected it. The point is, I don't think the city of Milwaukee is against spending a few dollar bills a year to support something that is important to the city.
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Re: Kohl/Arena Discussion-(Big update pg 46 - We went to OKC 

Post#740 » by xTitan » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:38 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:IF there is a talk about a sales tax increase (such as for Miller Park) then it is a state issue as they will have to approve. If they want to limit it to Milwaukee County only they could go the referendum route as the Pack did but I don't think that will fly at all.

There is less than zero chance this tax would go further than Milwaukee county.

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