yardbarker

Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

Post#1 Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:41 am by LUKE23

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/preview2 ... ks-outlook

So how is this backcourt thing going to work? Ellis and Jennings are not only an odd couple in the backcourt, but could be at cross purposes as both look to get paid this summer. Jennings will be a restricted free agent, most likely, while Ellis has an opt-out that I'd say he's at least 50 percent likely to exercise.

Yet the biggest question with both is at the other end; each is undersized and Ellis in particular has shown little inclination to expend much effort defensively. Which gets to the real crux of the problem: Ellis is a sixth man masquerading as a go-to guy, and unfortunately the Bucks reinforced this by playing him 40+ minutes many nights after the trade.

Of course, for the Bucks this is an issue more in theory than in practice, as they don't have a starting 2 anyway. They don't have any wing defenders either, with the glaring exception of Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, but his inability to shoot creates substantial problems in its own right -- and is why the Bucks have often used him as a 4 in recent seasons. That won't be an option with the top-heavy frontcourt, and it may be that the Bucks look to trade from their surplus to fill in the backcourt more ably. In particular, dealing Gooden for a starting 2 that can shoot and defend would solve several of these problems at once.

In the meantime, keep an eye on Harris, who will be the backup small forward and could emerge as the go-to guy for the second unit. (If it isn't Ellis, that is). Milwaukee will again have an extremely strong bench; in fact, as Gooden is one of the best No. 3 bigs in basketball, backup center Ekpe Udoh is an outstanding defender, reserve guards Beno Udrih and Dunleavy are very solid players, and even fifth big Larry Sanders is a crazy shot-blocker with some upside.

The bench strength guarantees that the Bucks can survive the regular-season grind in decent shape, but the bigger question is whether there's sufficient star power and defensive gravitas to push them above the East's lottery flotsam. That's particularly true given that Skiles may be at the end of his road here, as his track record is that he burns out after a few years in one city; this is now in his fifth in Brewtown, and Year 4 wasn't pretty.

It wouldn't shock me to see Milwaukee return to the postseason, especially if the Bucks can make another roster tweak or two. But the more likely scenario is that they challenge for the playoffs again -- and once again fall short. The Bucks either need a defensive renaissance or a breakout season from one of the guards to exceed that projection; either is possible, but neither is particularly likely.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#2 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:46 am by paulpressey25

Hollinger continues to drink the Kool aid on Drew Gooden.

If he's as valuable as John thinks, we should have no problem dealing him even up for Wes Matthews or the like.
I don't tweet much, but when I do, it is the same garbage you get from me on here:

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
paulpressey25



Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
User avatar
Posts: 42,089
And1: 1,699
Joined: Oct 26, 2002
Location: Giannis, Jabari and Bledsoe 2014
Top

Post#3 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:49 am by LUKE23

I don't really disagree with anything he said outside of Gooden being a trade asset. We're deep but we have no star power. Depth will keep you in games, but depth doesn't move the needle in terms of the standings.

An all-star needs to emerge. It would also help a lot to move Ellis and one of our surplus bigs for a more efficient, bigger long-term wing if possible. Don't know that guy is out there. We need to try and maximize that trade asset to whatever value it has though. Ellis will be opting out in all likelihood.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#4 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:52 am by JimmyTheKid

That won't be an option with the top-heavy frontcourt, and it may be that the Bucks look to trade from their surplus to fill in the backcourt more ably. In particular, dealing Gooden for a starting 2 that can shoot and defend would solve several of these problems at once.


:lol:

Great idea Hollinger! While we're at it, how about Tobes/Ellis/Pryz for Lebron James and Mbah a Moute/Udrih/Dalembert for Dwight Howard. Eh? Eh? Eh?

I usually don't mind Hollinger, but really? To get any player with any sort of above average skill set for Drew Gooden is a ridiculous pipe dream.
JimmyTheKid
Analyst
User avatar
Posts: 3,185
And1: 391
Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Top

Post#5 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:55 am by GHOSTofSIKMA

his comments on gooden pretty much nullify his opinion here.
GHOSTofSIKMA



General Manager
User avatar
Posts: 9,429
And1: 298
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
Location: NC
Top

Post#6 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:57 am by LUKE23

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:his comments on gooden pretty much nullify his opinion here.


Not really. Pretty much everything he said is true.

1. Ellis/Jennings is a poor fit as a backcourt.
2. We have a lot of depth but no stars, and stars are what win a relevant amount of games.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#7 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:03 am by emunney

I agree with GoS. The idea that Gooden is one of the best bench bigs in basketball is a window into the disposable quantitative methodology that informs ALL his opinions. It doesn't mean he's always going to be wrong, but it does mean it's not worth parsing. Throw it all out.
NY Daily News wrote:Eddy Curry claims he slept for only two hours Sunday night because he couldn't stop thinking about ghosts.
emunney
RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 30,183
And1: 1,817
Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Location: Trusting in Thannies
Top

Post#8 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:04 am by EastSideBucksFan

Marquis Daniels will be a better wing defender than some give him credit for.
EastSideBucksFan

RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 14,827
And1: 1,291
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Top

Post#9 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:05 am by LUKE23

I think it's perfectly viable to disagree with what PER represents but also agree with his basketball opinions. For one, his draft rater to me has been very good. He obviously also watches all teams quite a bit and has a fundamental understanding of advanced stats. Do I like PER? No, I hate it, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know the game.

Personally, looking at his summary, I don't really disagree with any of it. Poor backcourt pairing, lack of wing defenders sans Moute, depth but very little difference between starters and bench players, likes Harris' potential, etc.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#10 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:06 am by LUKE23

EastSideBucksFan wrote:Marquis Daniels will be a better wing defender than some give him credit for.


If he's playing any kind of substantial minutes we have some problems though.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#11 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:08 am by SpursNBucks

This guy is one of the most over-rated analysts out there. As mentioned- the comments on Gooden pretty much nullify the rest. The rest of what he says is pretty obvious casual fan talk. Nothing really of substance.
SpursNBucks
Bench Warmer
User avatar
Posts: 1,273
And1: 44
Joined: Apr 6, 2012
Top

Post#12 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:19 am by ReasonablySober

Basketball Prospectus also has the Bucks at 38-44. FWIW, here is what they said about Gooden this season:

We are entering year three of the five-year deal the Bucks gave Drew Gooden in 2010. If he can continue to perform as well as he did in 2011-12, the contract isn’t going to be “mind-numbingly bad,” as we wrote in this space last December. Gooden upped his value by markedly improving his assist rate for the second straight season. Going into his first year in Milwaukee, our skill ratings had Gooden rated as a -3 passer; as you can see, he’s now at +3. He’s also made small strides to improve his efficiency-killing midrange game, taking 55 threes last year, more than double his previous career high. Gooden still gives up way too much on the defensive end to be a full-time player. Last year, the Bucks’ Defensive Rating was 12.8 points worse with him on the floor. That was only the most glaring example of a preexisting trend. With so many frontcourt options, the Bucks can use Gooden in an instant offense role. One note: His leap at age 30 marks him as a Fluke Rule candidate according to the definition of ESPN’s John Hollinger. Indeed, SCHOENE is forecasting a merciless regression.
ReasonablySober




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 54,758
And1: 1,696
Joined: Dec 1, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Top

Post#13 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:21 am by BucksBrew

He's trying to help us trade Gooden SHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Yeah Gooden is great.
Blame Rasho wrote:It is the same circle jerk fans like always going on and on and the sad part is that they don't even realize how pathetic they sound to a neutral fan.
BucksBrew



Junior
Posts: 409
And1: 54
Joined: Jul 17, 2009
Top

Post#14 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:32 am by KingCammo

I think we should keep Gooden...for the lolz.
KingCammo
Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 2,632
And1: 42
Joined: May 29, 2005
Location: face first in LBJ's old lady's vagina
Top

Post#15 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:33 am by EastSideBucksFan

Oh sweet....Gooden is a +3 passer now.....I'm sure we can move him for Wade now.
EastSideBucksFan

RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 14,827
And1: 1,291
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Top

Post#16 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:55 am by Max Green

*We don't have any wing defenders.
*We should trade Gooden for a starting 2 guard that can shoot & Defend.
*Gooden is one of the best backup bigs in basketball.
*Harris will be the backup Small Forward

I see Hollinger just pulled up the Bucks roster and wrote this article without really paying much attention to this team since the draft.
Vice President of Parker-Nation.
Max Green

RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 10,904
And1: 861
Joined: Jul 3, 2007
Location: Optimist Ave.
Top

Post#17 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:00 pm by LUKE23

He said no wing defenders sans Moute. Which is true. Daniels' D is getting massively overrated.

Harris would have been the backup SF if Moute was healthy. Hollinger should know Moute is hurt though, admittedly.

The overall gist of what he's saying is accurate though. Ellis/Jennings is a bad fit, and we're deep but don't have star power.
Jim Paschke ‏@Paschketball 6 Apr
I just wish everyone could enjoy the ride. I see both sides believe me. Seed and situation never concern me. It's in or out. That's all


#8 seed first round series W-L since 1983-84: 4-56
LUKE23




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 64,346
And1: 1,119
Joined: May 25, 2005
Location: Stunville
Top

Post#18 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:05 pm by InsideOut

Not sure why one comment disqualifies all his comments. By that logic nobody on the face of the earth has a qualified comment.

As far as the Gooden comment goes...didn't he say he was a good #3 big backup? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he saying Gooden isn't a good starter, isn't even a good back-up but as a #3 option he is good. I don't see how saying a guy is a good third string guy is a complement.
John “Fred Sanford” Hammond.

Dealing in junk, scrap and unwanted players since 2008.
InsideOut
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 5,361
And1: 207
Joined: Aug 22, 2006
Location: Hammond's junk yard
Top

Post#19 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:07 pm by ReasonablySober

If you play him strictly at PF in a limited role, Gooden isn't going to kill you.
ReasonablySober




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 54,758
And1: 1,696
Joined: Dec 1, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Top

Post#20 Re: Hollinger: Bucks 9th in East, 38-44
Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:12 pm by SupremeHustle

What is the Gooden effect, really? With him we're looking at the 9th or 10th seed, without the 7th or 8th seed? In that sense, I think he's actually helping.
Basketball is my favorite sport.
I like the way they dribble up and down the court.

--Kurtis Blow
SupremeHustle

General Manager
User avatar
Posts: 8,807
And1: 1,508
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Cloud 9
Top

Next

Return to Milwaukee Bucks


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AussieBuck, blennz, Remon, Shoot it FatBoy